Bonus classic Prudie, because I don't remember this one and it's a doozy.

mrsconn23 · December 2018

Dear Prudie,

Several years ago my husband had an affair that resulted in a child. Although we’re still married and he has no interest in a divorce, he lives with the child and her mother. Our family has been shattered and my children occasionally say things that let me know they still carry a tremendous burden of hurt. But we all believe the child bears no responsibility and deserves a father. The mother of the child, however, will never be accepted into our lives. A major problem arises around the holidays. My husband insists on coming over for Christmas, but isn’t present in any meaningful sense. He just stares straight ahead. He criticizes little things, opens gifts but never takes them with him, and refuses any offers of food. Nothing we do makes him happy and the harder we try the unhappier he seems. I know therapy for everyone is the answer but he’s never been one to open up and previous efforts have been fruitless. What can we do to make his Christmas visit a little less awkward and perhaps even pleasant? I hate to see him so unhappy, but we’re tired of having to tiptoe around him all day.

—Wanting a Merry Christmas

flantastic · December 2018

Clearly no one is enjoying having him over for Christmas. You're welcome not to do that. That seems like the easiest thing to tackle of the many things here that are broken.

CharmedPam · December 2018

I’m not computing the living arrangements. Married but he lives with the mistress/child? Huh? Also LW says “my children” and not “our children” so is he not the biological father? I dunno if my husband and a child with his mistress I couldn’t handle that. Nope. He’d be gone. Edit to add: him and his depressed ass would be gone.

mrsconn23 · December 2018

How much of a fucking doormat do you need to be to let this man cheat on you, move out with the mother of the child he created outside your marriage, not divorce him because he doesn't want to get divorced, be left to deal with the devastation he left behind, and then let him come over at Christmas to just be a critical asshole that contributes nothing but bad attitude and judgement? AND THIS HAS GONE ON FOR YEARS?! What in the fucking fuck? How does this LW have NO ONE in her life telling her that this is fucked up and she needs to tell him to take a fucking hike?

HE made his choice. All of this continued heartache is LW's fault for allowing him to control this situation from outside the fucking house he doesn't live in any longer and the family he doesn't seem to want. Just...wow.

banana468 · December 2018

He doesn't have interest in a divorce??

FFS - get an attorney and tell him that this isn't an arrangement that is beneficial to you or the children! And at a time of the year that is supposed to be happy, don't let him in!

short+sassy · December 2018

The letter is a little confusing. I initially had the impression the LW and her H are still romantically involved, but then I had to readjust that thinking. They are not. They are separated and he is with the new woman.

I'm concerned for the LW! She talks about that "he" doesn't want a divorce. Doesn't even mention her own thoughts on it. Because he can want whatever he wants. But she can still divorce him if she wants to. She should want to at least for closure but, who knows. She doesn't need his consent, though I have heard it is a more expensive and complicated process if one of the parties contests it.

But the advice she is really asking for is how to make his Christmas happier!?!? Which again seems to be putting his needs above her own and their children's.

LW, stop letting him dictate your life. Forget him and his happiness. Tell him to keep his sulking self home with his new family for Christmas. Pick another day to be Christmas with his kids. Or at least make a time limit. Like he can visit between 1-4.

CharmedPam · December 2018

short+sassy said:

The letter is a little confusing. I initially had the impression the LW and her H are still romantically involved, but then I had to readjust that thinking. They are not. They are separated and he is with the new woman.

Ok this is where I was confused too. I also thought they were still romantic/working on it.

short+sassy · December 2018

CharmedPam said:

short+sassy said:

The letter is a little confusing. I initially had the impression the LW and her H are still romantically involved, but then I had to readjust that thinking. They are not. They are separated and he is with the new woman.

Ok this is where I was confused too. I also thought they were still romantic/working on it.

I also had to go back and read the letter because I was thinking it was fairly recent. But it couldn't have been, because she is talking about "Christmas" in the plural. Oh yes. Apparently he left her "several years" ago. And she is still putting up with this nonsense, smh.

ShesSoCold · December 2018

This fuck cheats on you, has a child with the other woman, moves in with her, "shatters" your family, doesn't want to divorce you, insists on putting a damper on your holidays by coming over and acting like a prick and your biggest worry is how to make this dickface happy?

Girl, you needed therapy years ago. Not couples or family therapy. Individual counseling, for you. You need to understand your worth and move the fuck on.

Ugh. This poor woman. I can't imagine what he's done to her over the years to make her think that all of this is okay.

kerbohl · December 2018

If he was a jerk who didn't take his presents with him, I'd be wrapping them again and giving them to him the next year. I mean, I'd have divorced his ass the second he cheated on me, but if I was inexplicably in LW's situation and for some reason hadn't divorced him and this is how he treated me, I'd be doing that. I'd also completely ignore him whenever he comes over just to act like a jerk, but I guess I'm not very accomodating when someone wants to act like a spoiled child.

OliveOilsMom · December 2018

SSC mentioned this too. LW talks about therapy, but thinks only he sorta ex-H needs it. No - LW, YOU NEED THERAPY BY YOURSELF! Stop being a doormat for a guy who seems to only come over for Christmas out of obligation.

And, I would be returning his gifts every damn year. Or just stop giving him gifts all together.

LW also needs an attorney. Even if she does not want to divorce, it would be best to set up a custody schedule and child support obligations.

MesmrEwe · December 2018

She doesn't need counseling, she needs a Divorce Attorney! Or if they can be civil, work out the arrangements themselves in regards to the kids on one legal size sheet of paper and get the court to tap the gavel and call it done and over!

Casadena · December 2018

I can't bring myself to feel anything but incredibly sorry for LW who obviously doesn't understand what it means to be valued - by herself or others. My personal opinion on the cheating is irrelevant, plenty of people are able to work through that, with or without children, and come to workable relationship or co-parenting territory. But this just screams abuse on so many levels to me. I want so badly for LW to go to therapy individually and hopefully start to understand how unhealthy this situation is and get some help.

lovesclimbing · December 2018

So, I can understand her staying married even though they are, for all practical purposes, divorced. I know a couple who've been separated for decades and will never get back together, but they won't actually divorce because they're Christians and believe divorce is wrong (which kind of seems to be following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, in my opinion, but whatever). So I think there are situations and probably others besides that specific scenario where people can be separated but not ever want to actually divorce.

Even if she does want to divorce him and decides to go ahead and do so with or without his acquiescence, this problem will still be there because he will presumably still want to come over for Christmas with the children. I think she needs to sit down and tell him if he can't act Christmassy, he needs to stay away. She can not allow him in, and I think she should.

flantastic · December 2018

lovesclimbing said:

So, I can understand her staying married even though they are, for all practical purposes, divorced. I know a couple who've been separated for decades and will never get back together, but they won't actually divorce because they're Christians and believe divorce is wrong (which kind of seems to be following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, in my opinion, but whatever). So I think there are situations and probably others besides that specific scenario where people can be separated but not ever want to actually divorce.

Even if she does want to divorce him and decides to go ahead and do so with or without his acquiescence, this problem will still be there because he will presumably still want to come over for Christmas with the children. I think she needs to sit down and tell him if he can't act Christmassy, he needs to stay away. She can not allow him in, and I think she should.

I mean, my grandmother and grandfather never looked to date/marry other people after their divorce because they had been validly married in the Church and that's till death.

However, she still legally extricated herself from his nonsense, because that was what the situation called for. I think that is what would be best for LW's kids here.

ETA - and because the H isn't off living a celibate life. but instead has another family. Not getting a divorce in this situation would absolutely be the letter, not the spirit, of the law.

ShesSoCold · December 2018

lovesclimbing said:

So, I can understand her staying married even though they are, for all practical purposes, divorced. I know a couple who've been separated for decades and will never get back together, but they won't actually divorce because they're Christians and believe divorce is wrong (which kind of seems to be following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, in my opinion, but whatever). So I think there are situations and probably others besides that specific scenario where people can be separated but not ever want to actually divorce.

Even if she does want to divorce him and decides to go ahead and do so with or without his acquiescence, this problem will still be there because he will presumably still want to come over for Christmas with the children. I think she needs to sit down and tell him if he can't act Christmassy, he needs to stay away. She can not allow him in, and I think she should.

But if she distanced herself from him and got herself some counseling, she'd (hopefully) realize how horrible this man is and how his attitude on Christmas is the least of her problems. I feel like she's asking "my house is burning down. I'll call 911 in a minute, but do you think the milk I just put in the fridge will go bad? Should I get another gallon?".

I bet he's been gaslighting her for years. The fact that there's all these huge giant red flags and she's concerned with how to make him happy when he can squeeze his old family into his schedule tells me that she he's brainwashed the shit out of her and I think she needs to get herself as far away from him as possible.

OliveOilsMom · December 2018

flantastic said:

lovesclimbing said:

So, I can understand her staying married even though they are, for all practical purposes, divorced. I know a couple who've been separated for decades and will never get back together, but they won't actually divorce because they're Christians and believe divorce is wrong (which kind of seems to be following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, in my opinion, but whatever). So I think there are situations and probably others besides that specific scenario where people can be separated but not ever want to actually divorce.

Even if she does want to divorce him and decides to go ahead and do so with or without his acquiescence, this problem will still be there because he will presumably still want to come over for Christmas with the children. I think she needs to sit down and tell him if he can't act Christmassy, he needs to stay away. She can not allow him in, and I think she should.

I mean, my grandmother and grandfather never looked to date/marry other people after their divorce because they had been validly married in the Church and that's till death.

However, she still legally extricated herself from his nonsense, because that was what the situation called for. I think that is what would be best for LW's kids here.

I agree. You can get divorced but still stay within your religious beliefs that you never marry anyone else.

lovesclimbing · December 2018

In the case of the couple I was referencing, I believe they thought even divorcing would be wrong whether or not they dated or married other people afterward. Depending on your interpretation of the Bible, divorce is wrong except in cases of unfaithfulness. Their reason for separating was essentially "irreconcilable differences" or "no-fault" or whatever you call it for "we don't love each other anymore, and we don't want to be together anymore." So if you believe divorce is only allowed in cases of cheating, it would be wrong for them to get a divorce.

flantastic · December 2018

lovesclimbing said:

In the case of the couple I was referencing, I believe they thought even divorcing would be wrong whether or not they dated or married other people afterward. Depending on your interpretation of the Bible, divorce is wrong except in cases of unfaithfulness. Their reason for separating was essentially "irreconcilable differences" or "no-fault" or whatever you call it for "we don't love each other anymore, and we don't want to be together anymore." So if you believe divorce is only allowed in cases of cheating, it would be wrong for them to get a divorce.

Sure, but that's why I added my ETA. That's clearly not the case with this guy, because he did cheat and he's living with his other family.

STARMOON44 · December 2018

lovesclimbing said:

So, I can understand her staying married even though they are, for all practical purposes, divorced. I know a couple who've been separated for decades and will never get back together, but they won't actually divorce because they're Christians and believe divorce is wrong (which kind of seems to be following the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law, in my opinion, but whatever). So I think there are situations and probably others besides that specific scenario where people can be separated but not ever want to actually divorce.

Even if she does want to divorce him and decides to go ahead and do so with or without his acquiescence, this problem will still be there because he will presumably still want to come over for Christmas with the children. I think she needs to sit down and tell him if he can't act Christmassy, he needs to stay away. She can not allow him in, and I think she should.

I mean, if you want to stay married but live apart and celibate for your morals knock yourself out but I think it’s just bonkers to do that but then be hooking up with someone else as this man is obviously doing

lovesclimbing · December 2018

flantastic said:

lovesclimbing said:

In the case of the couple I was referencing, I believe they thought even divorcing would be wrong whether or not they dated or married other people afterward. Depending on your interpretation of the Bible, divorce is wrong except in cases of unfaithfulness. Their reason for separating was essentially "irreconcilable differences" or "no-fault" or whatever you call it for "we don't love each other anymore, and we don't want to be together anymore." So if you believe divorce is only allowed in cases of cheating, it would be wrong for them to get a divorce.

Sure, but that's why I added my ETA. That's clearly not the case with this guy, because he did cheat and he's living with his other family.

True, I was just using that as one example of why someone could choose to stay married to someone, and I'm sure there are other reasons.

@STARMOON44, oh I agree, and my example wasn't necessarily meant to be "this is why," but more "there are reasons and here is just one of them of why people choose to stay married to someone even if they are permanently apart."

kerbohl · December 2018

What about the people who stay married to that the other person can't legally marry someone else? This might be why he has no interest in divorce - maybe he wants to prevent her from ever finding someone for herself. I mean, that would make him even more horrible, but judging by his other actions that shoe might fit ...

ei34 · December 2018

“But we all believe the child bears no responsibility and deserves a father.”
It’s sad that LW says this but also that her own family is shattered and that her children tell her from time to time that they carry “a burden of hurt” around. And lets H come on Christmas and ruin what’s supposed to be a happy day. F him. LW definitely needs therapy. Partially bc I do feel bad for her that she has such little self-worth that she’s accepted her scenerio as her normal, but mostly bc this is profoundly hurting her children. This isn’t just about you LW. There are kids involved. Your H absolutely created this problem, but you can take steps towards fixing it!

maine7mob · December 2018

Even Christians are allowed to divorce if one cheats or beats the other. That's actually Biblical. This woman needs to divorce this loser ASAP, take him to the cleaners for all he's worth (and THAT is most definitely not in the Bible), and get therapy for herself and her children. All of them need to learn healthy boundaries and how to stand up not just for oneself, but for the right things, period.

Jen4948 · December 2018

Divorce him, LW. You and your own children's well-being need to be your first priority, not pleasing a sullen, critical asshole who cheated on you and deserted you. Take him to the cleaners.

Bonus classic Prudie, because I don't remember this one and it's a doozy.

Re: Bonus classic Prudie, because I don't remember this one and it's a doozy.

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