Therapy, but no more excuses

short+sassy · July 2020

Dear Prudence,

I’m newly married, about six months now. My wife had difficulties that resulted in her getting kicked out of her master’s program. Until this point she had taken out around $100,000 in loans. I’ve been trying to persuade her to get a job, any job, to help pay down her student debt, but she always says, “I’d rather end it all than work a job I don’t love.” I entered this marriage thinking we’d be equal partners, but I’m finding that’s not the case. I’ve tried talking about it, but she claims it makes her “too stressed” and “too angry to talk about.” How can I approach this? It’s unlikely she’ll be able to work in her original field, and I don’t think I can support us and her student debt alone.

downtondiva · July 2020

Wife needs to get therapy and needs to get it NOW...to address whatever caused her to get kicked out of her master's program (maybe I'm wrong, but that seems...unusual), to address this extreme reaction to being asked to find a job, and to address that she needs to grow up. When you have $100,000 in debt, especially for something that didn't work out, you can't afford to hold out for a perfect job that you love.

short+sassy · July 2020

I want to give the wife some credit that she might be going through depression and should see a doctor/therapist.

But if she won't and also refuses to look for work, the LW needs to start considering if they can stay in this marriage.

If she agrees to therapy, depending on what the therapist says, maybe she can have a little more time before she starts looking for a job. But this entitled, emotional blackmail of “I’d rather end it all than work a job I don’t love,” needs to go straight to hell.

Does she think the cashier that bags her groceries "loves their job". Or the bill collector in the call center who has to call and bug her about her student loan. Do they love their job? Probably no and no. For most people, a job is a means to an end. And if you don't mind your job and don't hate it, that's already a good situation. But when she sets the bar at "love", it's translation for "I just don't want to work".

Another option would be to look into the legalities (for the LW) of defaulting on the loans and not making any more payments. Since they haven't been married long, I'm assuming all of that debt is only in her name. So if the loans get defaulted, it only goes against her credit. Too bad, so sad for her. But that's what people get when they don't care about the debts they accrue.

banana468 · July 2020

You BOTH need therapy. And marital therapy is also a good idea.

This sounds so rough - but also I have to wonder how much of this is a need for therapy and a lack of understanding of how the world works.

charlotte989875 · July 2020

Therapy. Individually for both. And together. This is all around unhealthy and Prudie can’t solve this.

Jen4948 · July 2020

Team Therapy. Individually and as a couple. The wife needs to heal inside if she's depressed, but she also has to stop using “I’d rather end it all than work a job I don’t love” and claiming to be too angry or stressed to talk about it as it desperately needs to be talked about and resolved.

banana468 · July 2020

Also, I want a marital therapist to advise if this is truly a depression issue or if this speaks to greater issues about an understanding of how jobs work, how time management works and how a partnership works.

My job is great. It's not "change the world fulfilling" but I like it. I wonder if the wife needs some understanding that....not everyone loves what pays the bills and you need to pay the bills.

ILoveBeachMusic · July 2020

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

kerbohl · July 2020

ILoveBeachMusic said:

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

I agree with this. It really narrows down what you can do career wise. There are jobs that I didn't think I would love that I ended up loving, and jobs that I hated that I thought I would love. You have to apply and work at places, and you might grow to enjoy it. Even a job that you know you will love will have downsides - nothing is a perfect fit. Adequate fits are perfectly fine, and maybe you feel fulfilled by the fact that the bills are paid!

MesmrEwe · July 2020

I want to know what the "Difficulties" were with the Masters Program quite honestly because that dictates a lot from not smart enough for that type of program to needs some remedial work before going back, couldn't memorize names of medications, to was butting heads with the professors from a political perspective so not getting good grades, couldn't turn in her work on time, took too many credits, any number of things that are relevant without a single moment of therapy. She either needs to fix the problem or change her dream. She needs a coach to figure out what she's doing next because if the Masters program didn't work out, it's time to create a new future and maybe even a back door to the career she wanted. My guess is she quit or was cut from the program because she didn't take advantage of the school resources available for students who may be struggling or work with her professors when things were becoming an overwhelming challenge for her, or she just didn't want to put in the work for something she thought would come easy but didn't.

That said, yes, therapy is in order and premarital counseling should have been done for this very topic because those are scenarios that good premarital counseling will discuss in the "nip it in the bud" plan. My guess is the finances aren't the only area that this type of thinking is becoming an issue for the couple though is a high predictor of divorce..

MyNameIsNot · July 2020

ILoveBeachMusic said:

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

I don't think this is fair to put on a generation. I have a couple of relatives that are like this who are older. (One is my 63 year old aunt who is still trying to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up.)

banana468 · July 2020

MyNameIsNot said:

ILoveBeachMusic said:

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

I don't think this is fair to put on a generation. I have a couple of relatives that are like this who are older. (One is my 63 year old aunt who is still trying to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up.)

Agreed. Or when the economy dips I've also seen boomers refuse to take jobs that weren't management if they previously were at a higher level.

mrsconn23 · July 2020

MyNameIsNot said:

ILoveBeachMusic said:

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

I don't think this is fair to put on a generation. I have a couple of relatives that are like this who are older. (One is my 63 year old aunt who is still trying to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up.)

To be fair, he said 'some' people of his generation.

But there is a reckoning going on with not settling for shit jobs, working for 'the man', feeling 'inspired' on a daily basis, etc. Some of it is the wellness/'eat, pray, love' mindset, some of it millenials/gen z pushing back against boomers and the expectations that you're supposed to follow some sort of path and/or have life figured out by your mid-20's. The jobs people in the past relied on to make a steady paycheck and that would 'be there' for generations are just not there any more. It has everything to do with busting unions, automation, shitty employment laws, etc. The 'American dream' is becoming more and more of a farce to people and people are looking for a new one.

However, the reality of a adult life is that you have to live with the choices you make and living costs money. Should school be more affordable? Yes. Is Andrew Yang onto something with regard to giving almost everyone a monthly stipend? Of course. But in the current climate, lady needs to get a damn job and I totally understand why LW feels disillusioned and like they were somehow 'tricked'. And honestly, the longer they stay married the more on the hook LW is for their wife's debt. So yeah, it's time to tell her therapy...and a job...or else. Because $100k debt for post-grad failure is way too deep for this young marriage.

short+sassy · July 2020

MyNameIsNot said:

ILoveBeachMusic said:

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

I don't think this is fair to put on a generation. I have a couple of relatives that are like this who are older. (One is my 63 year old aunt who is still trying to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up.)

Dating myself here, but I watched an HBO Paula Poundstone stand-up show years ago. She said something like, "You know when people ask little kids what they want to be when they grow up? They're not just making conversation with children. They're looking for ideas!"

ILoveBeachMusic · July 2020

MyNameIsNot said:

ILoveBeachMusic said:

DS1 and I were just talking about this mind set of loving your job. DS2 hates his job right now (the company) and gets really down about it (he is looking for a new one but the market right now...). DS1 was saying the whole mind set of having to love your job has been put forth as a society and that's the problem with some people in his generation. Very few people absolutely love their job but bills have to be paid. I was telling DS2 the last time he was down about it, that as long as a person is content with coworkers and the company, find something else (a hobby, volunteer) to be passionate about and don't put so much value on the job to make you feel fulfilled as a person. He recognized the validity of that and luckily knows he has to pay his way. So unless the wife is truly depressed, she needs to grow up and make a plan for the future.

I don't think this is fair to put on a generation. I have a couple of relatives that are like this who are older. (One is my 63 year old aunt who is still trying to figure out what she wants to be when she grows up.)

True, but we (DS1 and I) were specifically talking about how younger people were having a hard time finding a job that fulfills them. I didn't say that in my original post. People can change careers several times in a lifetime. Just don't sit around waiting for the perfect job to appear.

mrsconn23 · July 2020

ILoveBeachMusic said:

True, but we (DS1 and I) were specifically talking about how younger people were having a hard time finding a job that fulfills them. I didn't say that in my original post. People can change careers several times in a lifetime. Just don't sit around waiting for the perfect job to appear.

Yes, there seems to be a subset of people who think they should be fulfilled by what they're doing all.the.time and if they can't find that, why bother? That's not how life works. At some point, at work or in life in general, you're going to be faced with something you just don't want to do. Not every challenge is going to result in something that feels like it's moving you forward/toward your destiny. In the moment, it's just some shit you have to get through.

There's a difference between that and hating your job outright because it's soul sucking.

charlotte989875 · July 2020

I do think it’s interesting having been in the generation where we were taught “you can be anything you want, you can have a great fulfilling career, you have opportunities previous generations never had!” but now seeing the people who taught us that surprised that we want fulfilling careers.

I graduated college in 2007, so right before the recession. I was told pick the best college you get into, the economy is doing well, you’ll find a job in your field that you love! And most of my friends did (I went to grad school). For a year then they were laid off. I don’t know anyone my age who isn’t now constantly worried about paying bills, a mortgage, student loans (because we have massive ones!) and forgoing great paying jobs because it doesn’t fulfill them.

I just think folks my age (and younger) have seen that jobs and employers aren’t loyal to them them through economic downturns and are less likely to stay with a company or position just because they have a job. I can’t blame them.

Now, that said LWs wife needs some real help because this reaction is not typical and should be read as a big red flag that something is off. But I don’t think we can say that a whole generation (or two because really Gen Z is in the workforce now) should just be happy for what they have when they have a job because they’ve seen first hand (twice now!) how little loyalty employers have to their employees.

Therapy, but no more excuses

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