Why would y'all keep a house no one lives in?

mrsconn23 · April 2022

Dear Prudence,

My husband and his parents are three of the most genuinely kind people I know, and I’m very luckily to call them family. They are, however, terrible at having frank conversations. They avoid tough subjects, or circle around them so broadly that we’re often halfway into a conversation before I figure out what they’re actually trying to talk to me about. My husband has learned to be franker and more direct with me, but has not gotten there with his parents. Mostly this is fine, though I think it will be more of a problem as his parents age.

The thing that really worries me right now is a family home that my in-laws purchased from other family members and now live in. It’s in a very hot real estate market with high property taxes, and the only thing my husband’s family will say about the fate of this house when my in-laws pass away is it will be “given to” my husband and his siblings. We live across the country, also in an expensive housing market, and couldn’t afford property taxes and maintenance on this house in addition to our own. My other siblings-in-law also couldn’t afford this, and none of them live near this house (or even in the same state). The house is very sentimental to my husband and his family, and he would be devastated if it was sold.

I keep bringing up to him that I think he and his parents and siblings need to sit down and have a conversation about the future of this house and he agrees, but just doesn’t do it. I’ve been bugging him for two years now. I’ve outlined for him how messy things could get if his parents pass away or move into assisted living with no plan for how four adults with modest incomes who love each other but have divergent careers, personal lives, and priorities will take care of an extremely expensive piece of property. We’ve discussed timelines for doing this and when might be a good time, and same deal.

There’s no indication either of my in-laws would pass in the next 10 years, but their health is declining. They also couldn’t live in this home independently if either of them became mobility-restricted (lots of stairs, far from major medical facilities). Should I start this conversation myself? Or just butt out and support my husband if things do get sticky? I should add my husband doesn’t even know if house is paid off or not.

— Need a Frank Conversation

CharmedPam · April 2022

Are all 4 siblings against living in it? If one wants it, they can buy out the other 3.

It sucks to sell a sentimental house, however it sucks even more to drain your finances to either live in it or even think of paying for it and not. What about keeping it and renting it out until a decision can be made. I also need to know what is left owed on the house. Was that mentioned? I didnt see: if it’s paid outright or has little left on it, and it’s feasible to rent (some people are not meant to be landlords) that could be a way to go.

charlotte989875 · April 2022

I think LW needs to but put for now. The parents are in good health, they’ve made their wishes known, and LW doesn’t have to agree that’s what their plans are. The siblings can decide, when the time comes, what to do with it.

Maybe they’ll be able to live in it for the remainder of their lives; maybe they’ll need to sell and move to assisted living; maybe they’ll decide they want to sell move somewhere smaller. Point is it’s the parents decision now, not the children and especially not LW.

banana468 · April 2022

Well, if they haven't already made plans to have the house in the names of the children then that home is likely going to be used up in the care for the parents as they age.

I've said it before and I've said it again - get an elder care attorney and just look for the consultation. They can likely guide about care and advise on the number of years that the IRS will look back into accounts to determine where the parents may have gifted money and if that needs to be reclaimed for their care. Money goes faster than you'd think. DH's grandmother sold her house in a high COL area for over $600,000 which was gone by the time she passed and was officially on Title 19.

The other part to consider once the above is done is to ask if they'd want to be landlords from afar or would they want to use a property management company and WHAT would they do with the house? It's not jewelry. There will be huge maintenance costs in addition to taxes and a house not lived in is prime for animals and damage.

Siblings sound like they have their head in the sand.

STARMOON44 · April 2022

I mean this is just invented drama. These people are alive and living in the house. You do not need a solid plan for a future that may never come to pass.

banana468 · April 2022

I am probably projecting some of my own issues but I wish LW would advise what's actually going on with the health of the relatives.

As I said before my parents are in their young 70s and in a house that is NOT well suited for them. That said, unlike the LW I don't think the next 10 years may be great for my dad's health as he's already had a stroke and while my mother's vitals are good, the home is not suited for a person who is going to absolutely need more joints replaced or assistance with walking.

My gripe is that if you wait until the issue is in front of you you're too late. The POINT of doing things and figuring them out is before you need assisted living care, etc. If there are signs that the stairs are an issue then ignoring them until you need surgery is not smart.

short+sassy · April 2022

The LW needs to BUTT OUT! At least for now. This is all a lot of "maybe/someday", having to do with their husband's family and inheritance. @banana468 makes a great point also. If the parents end up in assisted living, that house and it's value will disappear to pay for that care. No one will inherit it anyway.

My guess for when the parents eventually pass away or go into assisted living? The H and the siblings will hem and haw. Proclaim, "We can't sell this house! We can never sell this house!"

Then reality will eventually set in. They will sell the house. Because when multiple people inherit a house, there are limited choices. Either one person buys the others out. Which doesn't sound likely from what the LW described. Or they rent the house out to try and pay for some of the expenses.

But there's a good chance, especially in a HCOL area that they won't be able to rent it out for enough money to pay for the expenses. So it's still going to be a drain on people's finances. And for what? To keep a building they are sentimental about, but no one wants to or can afford to live in? They need to find a way to get over their sentimentality and sell it.

banana468 · April 2022

short+sassy said:

The LW needs to BUTT OUT! At least for now. This is all a lot of "maybe/someday", having to do with their husband's family and inheritance. @banana468 makes a great point also. If the parents end up in assisted living, that house and it's value will disappear to pay for that care. No one will inherit it anyway.

My guess for when the parents eventually pass away or go into assisted living? The H and the siblings will hem and haw. Proclaim, "We can't sell this house! We can never sell this house!"

Then reality will eventually set in. They will sell the house. Because when multiple people inherit a house, there are limited choices. Either one person buys the others out. Which doesn't sound likely from what the LW described. Or they rent the house out to try and pay for some of the expenses.

But there's a good chance, especially in a HCOL area that they won't be able to rent it out for enough money to pay for the expenses. So it's still going to be a drain on people's finances. And for what? To keep a building they are sentimental about, but no one wants to or can afford to live in? They need to find a way to get over their sentimentality and sell it.

You'd be surprised if it stayed what they could get. Friends less than 10 years ago lamented that they lost out on RENTALS because they couldn't go to the landlord with the year's rent in cash. It's insane when you're seeing HCOL areas and all depends on the market.

The thing I'm wondering is how far is the LW's cart before the horse?

charlotte989875 · April 2022

short+sassy said:

The LW needs to BUTT OUT! At least for now. This is all a lot of "maybe/someday", having to do with their husband's family and inheritance. @banana468 makes a great point also. If the parents end up in assisted living, that house and it's value will disappear to pay for that care. No one will inherit it anyway.

My guess for when the parents eventually pass away or go into assisted living? The H and the siblings will hem and haw. Proclaim, "We can't sell this house! We can never sell this house!"

Then reality will eventually set in. They will sell the house. Because when multiple people inherit a house, there are limited choices. Either one person buys the others out. Which doesn't sound likely from what the LW described. Or they rent the house out to try and pay for some of the expenses.

But there's a good chance, especially in a HCOL area that they won't be able to rent it out for enough money to pay for the expenses. So it's still going to be a drain on people's finances. And for what? To keep a building they are sentimental about, but no one wants to or can afford to live in? They need to find a way to get over their sentimentality and sell it.

My unpopular (and very capitalist opinion) is that the worst thing? I think we need better social safety & welfare systems. We don’t, so we use our assets to pay for our care and housing throughout our lives.

My grandparents did this- they transferred property to my dad and his siblings while they were alive and healthy and when they needed care Medicaid covered it all. They could have afforded to pay for it, but didn’t. And like, okay I get that it’s an option but something about it feels off.

The parents might have to use their home to pay for their care in their later years.

short+sassy · April 2022

charlotte989875 said:

short+sassy said:

The LW needs to BUTT OUT! At least for now. This is all a lot of "maybe/someday", having to do with their husband's family and inheritance. @banana468 makes a great point also. If the parents end up in assisted living, that house and it's value will disappear to pay for that care. No one will inherit it anyway.

My guess for when the parents eventually pass away or go into assisted living? The H and the siblings will hem and haw. Proclaim, "We can't sell this house! We can never sell this house!"

Then reality will eventually set in. They will sell the house. Because when multiple people inherit a house, there are limited choices. Either one person buys the others out. Which doesn't sound likely from what the LW described. Or they rent the house out to try and pay for some of the expenses.

But there's a good chance, especially in a HCOL area that they won't be able to rent it out for enough money to pay for the expenses. So it's still going to be a drain on people's finances. And for what? To keep a building they are sentimental about, but no one wants to or can afford to live in? They need to find a way to get over their sentimentality and sell it.

My unpopular (and very capitalist opinion) is that the worst thing? I think we need better social safety & welfare systems. We don’t, so we use our assets to pay for our care and housing throughout our lives.

My grandparents did this- they transferred property to my dad and his siblings while they were alive and healthy and when they needed care Medicaid covered it all. They could have afforded to pay for it, but didn’t. And like, okay I get that it’s an option but something about it feels off.

The parents might have to use their home to pay for their care in their later years.

For the system we have, I agree with you. It's sad when people work all their lives and have nothing to leave to their loved ones. But, at the same time, it would be worse to have tax payers cover it when there are valuable assets/money that can be taken to pay for someone's care.

The real travesty is that medical care, including assisted living care, doesn't have more support from the government and can leave people high and dry.

I realize to change that would probably involve raising taxes. But I'd be okay paying higher taxes for a benefit that covers everyone equally.

banana468 · April 2022

I have really mixed feelings about the entire concept of using the house to pay for long term care due to our current system.

I also say this as someone pretty solidly middle class living in a town that ranges from lower middle to upper class. There are apartments to live in town and then there are the multi million dollar waterfront properties.

On a different level we've talked about how to reform the local taxes with plenty of people who are in the over 60 bracket griping every time there's an increase to their taxes (Surprise: nothing is going to go down) and they request a tax freeze. I have SO many issues with it because the solution shouldn't be to stay in your home if you can't afford it and at what end do you implement it? Should the older wealthy homeowners get a tax break if they're living in a waterfront home that's a few million dollars? What about those in houses in town that are upwards of a million? If they do, I guarantee you that those houses will forever be owned by only the family members of age and they'll be the town version of NYC rent control (Thanks Monica's grandmother!) .

MyNameIsNot · April 2022

I'm team butt out. If we're talking about care for the ILs, I see where LW would need to push in. But we're not, we're talking about assets that may or may not even exist when ILs pass. I don't see why this needs to be decided now. It's possible that they will have to sell and be sad about it, but it's possible that circumstances will change between now and then.

short+sassy · April 2022

banana468 said:

I have really mixed feelings about the entire concept of using the house to pay for long term care due to our current system.

I also say this as someone pretty solidly middle class living in a town that ranges from lower middle to upper class. There are apartments to live in town and then there are the multi million dollar waterfront properties.

On a different level we've talked about how to reform the local taxes with plenty of people who are in the over 60 bracket griping every time there's an increase to their taxes (Surprise: nothing is going to go down) and they request a tax freeze. I have SO many issues with it because the solution shouldn't be to stay in your home if you can't afford it and at what end do you implement it? Should the older wealthy homeowners get a tax break if they're living in a waterfront home that's a few million dollars? What about those in houses in town that are upwards of a million? If they do, I guarantee you that those houses will forever be owned by only the family members of age and they'll be the town version of NYC rent control (Thanks Monica's grandmother!) .

Where I live, there's a "stay" on an increase in property taxes for people 65 and older, people who are on SSI disability, and widows of military members. But there is an income qualification also.

I personally think that is the best of both worlds. I don't think elderly/disabled people should have to move if their property taxes go up. Because you also have to keep in mind, that might require them to move to a totally different area entirely. Not everyone has a big, ole' house that they could sell and downsize. People on a fixed income could also get priced out of their modest 2-3 bedroom houses. (Making general comments, not directed at anyone).

But, at the same time, me and most of the other tax payers in my city are struggling a whole lot more than retirees who are still grossing 6 and 7-figures a year in retirement/investment income. They don't need the help to stay in their homes and they shouldn't receive it. The whole purpose of a "stay" is to not force elderly/disabled people out of their homes.

banana468 · April 2022

short+sassy said:

banana468 said:

I have really mixed feelings about the entire concept of using the house to pay for long term care due to our current system.

I also say this as someone pretty solidly middle class living in a town that ranges from lower middle to upper class. There are apartments to live in town and then there are the multi million dollar waterfront properties.

On a different level we've talked about how to reform the local taxes with plenty of people who are in the over 60 bracket griping every time there's an increase to their taxes (Surprise: nothing is going to go down) and they request a tax freeze. I have SO many issues with it because the solution shouldn't be to stay in your home if you can't afford it and at what end do you implement it? Should the older wealthy homeowners get a tax break if they're living in a waterfront home that's a few million dollars? What about those in houses in town that are upwards of a million? If they do, I guarantee you that those houses will forever be owned by only the family members of age and they'll be the town version of NYC rent control (Thanks Monica's grandmother!) .

Where I live, there's a "stay" on an increase in property taxes for people 65 and older, people who are on SSI disability, and widows of military members. But there is an income qualification also.

I personally think that is the best of both worlds. I don't think elderly/disabled people should have to move if their property taxes go up. Because you also have to keep in mind, that might require them to move to a totally different area entirely. Not everyone has a big, ole' house that they could sell and downsize. People on a fixed income could also get priced out of their modest 2-3 bedroom houses. (Making general comments, not directed at anyone).

But, at the same time, me and most of the other tax payers in my city are struggling a whole lot more than retirees who are still grossing 6 and 7-figures a year in retirement/investment income. They don't need the help to stay in their homes and they shouldn't receive it. The whole purpose of a "stay" is to not force elderly/disabled people out of their homes.

Yeah - I have some mixed feelings on the concept.

I'm a homeowner, employed and I'm a parent.

So as someone who has kids in the public school system in town I absolutely chafe at the concept when people present that our small town should have tax holds based on age alone when we are currently grappling with larger class sizes, the need for additional mental health professionals and athletic programs in my daughter's school are cut. (I have one in elementary school and one in the MS right now).

Our town has done great work to keep the school budget balanced and in check. Kids spent the first portion of the 2018/2019 school year moving classes in the building because the solution was to revamp the schools inside rather than build new elementary schools. It was the best solution.

The reality is that we are a growing town, costs are increasing, and I generally see the most vocal people complaining as those who are not having an issue - they just don't want to spend. (ex: DH's former boss is thrice divorced, owns 3 cars including a Porsche and complains that taxes are going up. The likelihood is that his arrogance and wandering nether region are what increased his expenses.). If our town offered a cap, we would need major restrictions noted and it would likely not affect the people who are petitioning for it most vocally. And while I do not think that you should be old and out of your house, I also think that if the taxes alone are what are preventing you from putting food on the table then you are likely in need of revamping your living arrangement.

MesmrEwe · April 2022

Team LW needs to butt out... It's not their place how the IL's spend their money, and when it comes to estate planning, also not LW's place to get involved...

mrsconn23 · April 2022

Ugh, I get the instinct to tell LW to butt out and I do think there's a little 'cart before horse' action going on in their head. I also think this whole, "They need to be more frank" or whatever is clouding all of this.

However, I do think there is a logistical and financial concern if this comes to fruition (the house staying in the family and LW and H being 1/4 financially responsible for it). I mean, I never in my life thought my mom was going to die at 60, and she was considered healthy up until her diagnosis and then was gone in under 2 years. I don't think LW's concerns are outsized.

If their IL's are at a point where they are thinking down the line with the house, then I think LW's husband and siblings *should* be telling their parents to start putting things on paper and encouraging them to sit with a lawyer/financial advisor/whomever and get a start on estate planning.

Butttt...LW in no way should be discussing this outside their marriage. And they shouldn't harp on it a ton either. They've made their position clear to their H from the tone of the letter.

Also, stop worrying about the finances of your siblings in law. It's truly not your problem.

banana468 · April 2022

mrsconn23 said:

Ugh, I get the instinct to tell LW to butt out and I do think there's a little 'cart before horse' action going on in their head. I also think this whole, "They need to be more frank" or whatever is clouding all of this.

However, I do think there is a logistical and financial concern if this comes to fruition (the house staying in the family and LW and H being 1/4 financially responsible for it). I mean, I never in my life thought my mom was going to die at 60, and she was considered healthy up until her diagnosis and then was gone in under 2 years. I don't think LW's concerns are outsized.

If their IL's are at a point where they are thinking down the line with the house, then I think LW's husband and siblings *should* be telling their parents to start putting things on paper and encouraging them to sit with a lawyer/financial advisor/whomever and get a start on estate planning.

Butttt...LW in no way should be discussing this outside their marriage. And they shouldn't harp on it a ton either. They've made their position clear to their H from the tone of the letter.

Also, stop worrying about the finances of your siblings in law. It's truly not your problem.

Totally agree.

If my FBIL came to me about my parents' house I'd nicely tell him to pound sand.

short+sassy · April 2022

I have a story in my own life about the pitfalls when multiple siblings inherit a house. Though, fortunately, I was the buyer in the situation.

The first non-owner occupied property I bought was a duplex. It had flooded in Katrina. Most of the gutting and drywall had been done, though not all of it. But that was about it.

I'm not sure when the parents passed away, but four siblings inherited. Reading between the lines, none of them wanted to take the responsibility/time/money or work together to do that, to fix the house up. So it sat vacant and rotting for 10 years. Except for one brother who was living in the smaller unit.

Finally, one of the sisters had all the other siblings sign away their ownership in exchange for her paying the property taxes. The property taxes were a "whopping" $1270/year. So crazy to me they signed away their rights instead of everyone agreeing to sell the property or pay their share of a few hundred bucks a year but, that's what three of them did (shrug).

About 2-3 years after that, she sold the property for $35K to a wholesaler. It would have been worth substantially more if they had just sold it 10 years earlier because the years of neglect had caused even more damage.

As an aside, she hadn't even paid the last year of taxes! It even delayed our closing by one week while she and the wholesaler argued about who would pay them and bring them current. The wholesaler ended up doing it.

The property transfer was done as a "double close". In that the wholesaler officially bought it from her in the morning and then sold it to me (for $47K), in the afternoon.

Why would y'all keep a house no one lives in?

Re: Why would y'all keep a house no one lives in?

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