Classic: They sound rude af.

mrsconn23 · April 2022

I’m a graduate student in evolutionary biology. I think science is the best way to understand the mechanisms by which the universe works. I also occasionally attend Catholic Mass and remain drawn to the story of Jesus. My problem is that the people I work with frequently say terribly insulting things about religion and religious people. Many members of my department seem to think that anyone who isn’t a militant atheist must be a creationist. Usually, I just keep my mouth shut. Do you think I should continue to keep quiet when my co-workers insult religion, or is there something I could say to get them to stop, without making them dismiss me as a brainwashed idiot?

banana468 · April 2022

Whether or not to say anything IMO is based on the status of the LW in the workplace and if that can create more problems than it is worth.

If they're not lowest in seniority I would start with, "I understand that there are a lot of religious conservatives who are not understanding how science works and that has been exacerbated especially over the last two years. However we also have a devout Catholic President who surrounds himself with a core staff of scientists and physicians who are experts in their fields. You don't need to look back far to see how many prominent Catholics have advanced our field. Just look at daVinci!"

charlotte989875 · April 2022

There are some pretty famous catholic scientists Are there not? I’d start saying “oh was Louis Pasteur a brainwashed idiot? How about Mendel?” And see what they have to say.

VarunaTT · April 2022

This is a #notallchristians and I don't have a lot of sympathy. LW would be better served at making sure they attend/support churches that support science, than trying to convince people who might be carrying religious trauma of their POV.

charlotte989875 · April 2022

VarunaTT said:

This is a #notallchristians and I don't have a lot of sympathy. LW would be better served at making sure they attend/support churches that support science, than trying to convince people who might be carrying religious trauma of their POV.

I don’t think LW wants to change their mind, they just want them to stop talking about it.

Religious trauma or not the coworkers are potentially violating harassment policies by engaging in this kind of talk. There are some truly despicable horrors the Catholic Church has been responsible for covering up and condoning. But people deserve to work in an environment where they’re not also subject to name calling and harassment.

VarunaTT · April 2022

LW doesn't state they are being called names or suffering anything except discomfort over having their religious beliefs, which are of the majority, impunged by a minority stating their opinion. As someone who is an atheist, in a town where introductions are often still followed by, "And what church do you go to?", I don't believe it's as bad as LW thinks it is. LW is of the majority belief system and is uncomfortable. If they want to go to HR and request there be no religious talk at all, that's fine, but I think they want validation for witnessing to their coworkers and doing a #notallchristians thing and there's no room for that either.

mrsconn23 · April 2022

I fall between @charlotte989875 and @VarunaTT. I need more context to these comments and how they are being bandied about.

If LW feels intimidated into silence if someone asks them what they did over the weekend and they don't want to say they went to church because they feel they'll receive some sort of negative reaction, or like someone will want to challenge/debate them on that choice, and/or it will affect their standing in their program, then that's a problem IMO.

However if people are talking or debating around LW and they are just observing others have an interaction, then LW should maybe listen, walk away, put in earbuds, or whatever.

banana468 · April 2022

VarunaTT said:

LW doesn't state they are being called names or suffering anything except discomfort over having their religious beliefs, which are of the majority, impunged by a minority stating their opinion. As someone who is an atheist, in a town where introductions are often still followed by, "And what church do you go to?", I don't believe it's as bad as LW thinks it is. LW is of the majority belief system and is uncomfortable. If they want to go to HR and request there be no religious talk at all, that's fine, but I think they want validation for witnessing to their coworkers and doing a #notallchristians thing and there's no room for that either.

I interpreted it more that the colleagues are arrogantly disparaging religion and religious people in general.

I'm also interpreting this as someone practicing a faith in an area where faith isn't the first thing that people discuss and isn't far from major academic areas where grad students and those working major labs can be immersed in their work and rather arrogant in their opinions and approach to others.

While there are absolutely plenty of people of faith who represent the absolute worst, the OP is pointing out that the comments are frequent enough that they bother them. And part of hearing that someone is frustrated is hearing them out. I think comments that the colleagues are victims of religious trauma is a major conclusion to jump to and is turning the LW into the aggressor when there is no evidence to make that claim.

VarunaTT · April 2022

While there are confrontational and arrogant atheists, they are still a minority, even in the atheist movement. I still stand by that LW's discomfort in holding a majority belief that offers loads of protection in the world (even if they work in a job where that might not be true) isn't enough for them to say something to their colleagues personally. Even in a graduate setting, there would be a policy for HR to back up.

Religion is a choice. I still don't think it's possible this is coming up that much, and that it coming up at all is what makes LW uncomfortable. Because if it's just about creationism, and LW doesn't believe in that, why the need to protect the people who are creationists? That's what makes it a #notallchristians moment. Until the majority of religions collect the religious people who create harm in the world and change the fundamentals of their religion, their discomfort in existing in a supremely unique space doesn't matter.

banana468 · April 2022

VarunaTT said:

While there are confrontational and arrogant atheists, they are still a minority, even in the atheist movement. I still stand by that LW's discomfort in holding a majority belief that offers loads of protection in the world (even if they work in a job where that might not be true) isn't enough for them to say something to their colleagues personally. Even in a graduate setting, there would be a policy for HR to back up.

Religion is a choice. I still don't think it's possible this is coming up that much, and that it coming up at all is what makes LW uncomfortable. Because if it's just about creationism, and LW doesn't believe in that, why the need to protect the people who are creationists? That's what makes it a #notallchristians moment. Until the majority of religions collect the religious people who create harm in the world and change the fundamentals of their religion, their discomfort in existing in a supremely unique space doesn't matter.

The LW is literally working in evolutionary biology so the concept of evolution is literally the field of choice and I can read between the lines that it's in this field that it's fodder for the disparaging comments not just towards creationism but towards faith.

What is troubling to me is that your take on this is that the LW's discomfort doesn't matter.

VarunaTT · April 2022

I understand what you find troubling. I understand why you find it troubling. However, it is an #notallchristians moment. Why do they feel personally attacked or threatened by a religious viewpoint being disparaged, when it's not being personally directed at them? It's being directed at religion as a whole; it's the same as critiquing men under patriarchy, white people under patriarchy, etc. It's not personal and LW is making it personal and shouldn't be. They should accept the criticism and they don't need to stick up for religion. They can do the work of making sure to support religious viewpoints that don't harm and exist in their discomfort.

STARMOON44 · April 2022

I think LW can absolutely say “I understand we are all scientists here but I think sometimes we are taking cheap shots at people who are religious that are just unnecessary.” I also think this likely violates the employers nondiscrimination and no harassment policies, and rightfully so.

Your coworkers dismissing everyone religious as a brainless idiot when you are religious is personal. And it’s not acceptable in a workplace.

banana468 · April 2022

VarunaTT said:

I understand what you find troubling. I understand why you find it troubling. However, it is an #notallchristians moment. Why do they feel personally attacked or threatened by a religious viewpoint being disparaged, when it's not being personally directed at them? It's being directed at religion as a whole; it's the same as critiquing men under patriarchy, white people under patriarchy, etc. It's not personal and LW is making it personal and shouldn't be. They should accept the criticism and they don't need to stick up for religion. They can do the work of making sure to support religious viewpoints that don't harm and exist in their discomfort.

The LW's quote is

My problem is that the people I work with frequently say terribly insulting things about religion and religious people. Many members of my department seem to think that anyone who isn’t a militant atheist must be a creationist.

It IS personal when your faith is insulted especially when the commentary is an insinuation to the LW's intelligence because they are working in evolutionary biology, are a Christian and by nature of their research believe in evolution and not a creationist.

If this was a discussion about the discriminatory practices of multiple faiths I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the concept that the person of faith should work harder to make someone insulting them feel better.

VarunaTT · April 2022

I didn't say LW should try and make anyone feel better. I said they need to sit in their discomfort about a majority, culturally, socially, and systemically protected belief they engage in, in which a part is being criticized and even made fun of. Creationism is part and parcel of religion (especially in America) as a whole and it doesn't matter if an individual in religion doesn't believe it. Again, they are sitting and wanting to say, "Not all religions believe that, I don't, and I feel insulted." That is discomfort and they need to learn to deal with it, b/c it doesn't matter that LW personally doesn't engage in that particular religious belief.

STARMOON44 · April 2022

VarunaTT said:

I didn't say LW should try and make anyone feel better. I said they need to sit in their discomfort about a majority, culturally, socially, and systemically protected belief they engage in, in which a part is being criticized and even made fun of. Creationism is part and parcel of religion (especially in America) as a whole and it doesn't matter if an individual in religion doesn't believe it. Again, they are sitting and wanting to say, "Not all religions believe that, I don't, and I feel insulted." That is discomfort and they need to learn to deal with it, b/c it doesn't matter that LW personally doesn't engage in that particular religious belief.

This makes zero sense to me.

mrsconn23 · April 2022

I'm seeing this as two issues,

1. This is a workplace environment. Disparagement of an entire group of people, especially to the point where it's making it a hostile work environment, is a problem.

2. People are allowed to have their beliefs, and discuss them, as along as they are not impacting the rights of someone else.

We don't know if 1 is happening or if 2 is happening and LW is being overly sensitive/blowing this out of proportion over a few comments of people who don't participate in religion and/or have been harmed by it. If LW feels their ability to work productively and/or be considered for work projects, promotions, etc. would be impacted if they were 'outed' as participating in religion, then I think they should document and take their concerns to HR. That's how I would tell anyone else to deal with a work situation that was causing them discomfort or they felt it could impact their ability to do their job or be considered to move around/upward.

Classic: They sound rude af.

Re: Classic: They sound rude af.

Choose Another Board

Search Boards