Wedding Woes
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You owe them nothing.

Dear Prudence,

I’m 64, married 45 years, no kids, and I’m the only person in my extended family who did a college degree (a mature student, I worked hard and saved for six years, then paid my own way. My parents, who were both comfortable, didn’t offer financial support). I have two siblings, and they have five now-adult children. After some thought, and because I know that education was vital in helping me think differently about the world (plus, a great income), I wrote a letter 25 years ago to all my sibs’ children, promising that I’d pay tuition for them to pursue any baccalaureate degrees at a public college of their choice. I was in position to do that, and I knew their parents weren’t. I wanted to help open up opportunities. None of them ever took me up on the offer, to my surprise and disappointment.

My sibs, though, felt free to pitch appeals to me to pay for their kids’ weddings and down payments on houses, etc., which I have declined. (My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.) For more than two decades now, my sibs and their kids seem deeply resentful that we haven’t opened our wallets in a general way, that our original education offer wasn’t broadened to support their other choices. I’ve tried to keep relationships going with them despite their contempt, but their responses are cool, if they reply at all. My husband’s family has welcomed and appreciated our help for their kids’ education, with no other expectations, and they’re thriving. Do I owe my sibs’ kids financial support on different terms?

— Wondering if I Made a Mistake

Re: You owe them nothing.

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    You owe them nothing.

    This is similar to Mia's situation.  You made an offer and do not owe the same sum in a different way to anyone else.   
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    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
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    That is surprising that out of five children, none of them went to college.  At least I'd like to think the LW would have given "up to" what a public college tuition would have been, if a niece/nephew had chosen to go to a more expensive private college.  Or a trade school.

    But yes, it was a conditional gift and there is nothing wrong with that.  They don't get money for other things.  If their grabbiness has cooled these relationships, that is too bad.  But the LW still made the right choice.
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
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    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
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    To me, it reeks of "I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, they should so the same".

    LW could've left out all of the "I paid my own way" and "we paid for our own house and weddings".  B/c the question is: I offered X and that was declined, they wanted Y, do I owe them Y?".  The other stuff is just fluff and LW's need to separate themselves from their ne'er-do-good siblings and nieces/nephews who didn't go to college.
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    I do see some of the issues with the LW.  I mean, of COURSE you did these things years ago.  But also acknowledge that those are much harder to obtain now than they were the years when you got them.  Even now it's going to take more out of my H and me to pay for our kids to go to the same school we attended as a total % of our income.  So the "this is what we did" is arrogant and also not really realistic.

    But it also doesn't make me think that the LW should pay for home downpayments or weddings.

    I also think the LW may want to consider that a college education isn't for everybody.  
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    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    Oh, I absolutely do. 

    “My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.”

    And please (LW, not you, Starmoon), let’s not ignore that 25 years ago the cost of living was vastly different. 25 years ago in our positions H and I would have had a bigger house, no college debt, and we’d be going on the best vacations. Now planning a trip to the vineyard over a weekend isn’t something we can do without eyeing our budget and a bigger home in a nicer area honestly feels like a pipe dream. If we hadn’t bought our current house before the explosion I don’t know if we ever would be able to buy. 


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    levioosa said:
    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    Oh, I absolutely do. 

    “My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.”

    And please (LW, not you, Starmoon), let’s not ignore that 25 years ago the cost of living was vastly different. 25 years ago in our positions H and I would have had a bigger house, no college debt, and we’d be going on the best vacations. Now planning a trip to the vineyard over a weekend isn’t something we can do without eyeing our budget and a bigger home in a nicer area honestly feels like a pipe dream. If we hadn’t bought our current house before the explosion I don’t know if we ever would be able to buy. 
    Right?? 

    My alma mater is a state school that's THREE TIMES what it cost me to attend and I graduated 21 years ago.   The concept that the LW worked through college to make it happen isn't even possible now and it royally irritates me when people bring it up as if it's something that can be done because they did it 50 years ago. 

    LW is generous yes, but LW is really obtuse to think that things are anywhere near the same as they were.   
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    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    I don't either @s@STARMOON44. They referenced working and saving so they could attend college later in life (that's what ppl usually mean by mature student) and that experience was very valuable to them personally and financially. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I read all of that more as showing the reason that education was extra important to them, not a "look at me and i did all by myself". 
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    I think LW isn’t expecting them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps! They offered a huge leg up. 
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    I think LW isn’t expecting them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps! They offered a huge leg up. 
    EXACTLY
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    Casadena said:
    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    I don't either @s@STARMOON44. They referenced working and saving so they could attend college later in life (that's what ppl usually mean by mature student) and that experience was very valuable to them personally and financially. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I read all of that more as showing the reason that education was extra important to them, not a "look at me and i did all by myself". 
    The LW literally said  

    (a mature student, I worked hard and saved for six years, then paid my own way.

    then 

    (My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.)

    And the LW came to the CONCLUSION and wrote the letter 25 years ago.  So LW finished college in their 30s paying for it likely close to 30 years ago and wrote this letter at age 39.  That's not a graduate at 22 like I was but it means that they were in their 30s when attending and man I hope the 30s aren't considered to be later in life.



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    CasadenaCasadena member
    First Comment First Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited April 2023
    banana468 said:
    Casadena said:
    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    I don't either @s@STARMOON44. They referenced working and saving so they could attend college later in life (that's what ppl usually mean by mature student) and that experience was very valuable to them personally and financially. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I read all of that more as showing the reason that education was extra important to them, not a "look at me and i did all by myself". 
    The LW literally said  

    (a mature student, I worked hard and saved for six years, then paid my own way.

    then 

    (My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.)

    And the LW came to the CONCLUSION and wrote the letter 25 years ago.  So LW finished college in their 30s paying for it likely close to 30 years ago and wrote this letter at age 39.  That's not a graduate at 22 like I was but it means that they were in their 30s when attending and man I hope the 30s aren't considered to be later in life.



    30s is certainly later than 22 and I would assume that most of us agree there's a big maturity difference between finishing college at 22 vs 32. Yes they "did it all by themselves" but imo opinion LW is highlighting that to show why education is extra important to them. They worked to go (obviously it was cheaper then, etc, etc), found the experience rewarding, and offered that experience to others. I fail to see how that makes them pretentious buttheads. 

    ETA: Obviously education, homes, weddings, etc are harder to obtain now, and 20 years ago when we all started college (and it sounds like LW's niblings were going to start college approximately). One of those big roadblocks could have been avoided by the nieces/nephews if they chose. apparently they didnt. That's ok, but it doesn't make LW&H the bad guys. 
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    Casadena said:
    banana468 said:
    Casadena said:
    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    I don't either @s@STARMOON44. They referenced working and saving so they could attend college later in life (that's what ppl usually mean by mature student) and that experience was very valuable to them personally and financially. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I read all of that more as showing the reason that education was extra important to them, not a "look at me and i did all by myself". 
    The LW literally said  

    (a mature student, I worked hard and saved for six years, then paid my own way.

    then 

    (My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.)

    And the LW came to the CONCLUSION and wrote the letter 25 years ago.  So LW finished college in their 30s paying for it likely close to 30 years ago and wrote this letter at age 39.  That's not a graduate at 22 like I was but it means that they were in their 30s when attending and man I hope the 30s aren't considered to be later in life.



    30s is certainly later than 22 and I would assume that most of us agree there's a big maturity difference between finishing college at 22 vs 32. Yes they "did it all by themselves" but imo opinion LW is highlighting that to show why education is extra important to them. They worked to go (obviously it was cheaper then, etc, etc), found the experience rewarding, and offered that experience to others. I fail to see how that makes them pretentious buttheads. 
    LW is also implying that the education helped them think differently about the world.  It has the implication that this is better compared to the uneducated alternative. 

    And believe me in several ways I can also agree with the LW to a degree.  Higher education has many benefits and if there's anything the last 6 years showed us it's the lack of critical thinking in the uneducated voter.  

    But that does not mean that college is for everyone.     Maybe LW can handle a leaky faucet, a broken compressor for their Central Air, bad electrical wiring in their home and they also have the equipment and means to take down tall oak trees in their yard when they want to prevent accidents.  However all of what I cited are done by people who need technical training and licenses that are not in a standard 4 year university and yet if you have no heat on Christmas Day night (my brother this year), your critical thinking isn't going to clean your boiler.

    The letter reminds me a lot of the one from a month or so ago from the guy who used to work in a restaurant and now that job is beneath him.  
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    banana468 said:
    Casadena said:
    banana468 said:
    Casadena said:
    VarunaTT said:
    No, you don't owe them anything.

    You also don't have to be such a pretentious butthead about it either.  I hope you only say these things in a letter to Prudie and not to your siblings, b/c I'm sure that might have something to do with the coolness of their responses.
    I don’t get a pretentious butthead vibe here at all! 
    I don't either @s@STARMOON44. They referenced working and saving so they could attend college later in life (that's what ppl usually mean by mature student) and that experience was very valuable to them personally and financially. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I read all of that more as showing the reason that education was extra important to them, not a "look at me and i did all by myself". 
    The LW literally said  

    (a mature student, I worked hard and saved for six years, then paid my own way.

    then 

    (My husband and I paid for our own wedding and house purchases, enabled, really, by us getting degrees and working hard.)

    And the LW came to the CONCLUSION and wrote the letter 25 years ago.  So LW finished college in their 30s paying for it likely close to 30 years ago and wrote this letter at age 39.  That's not a graduate at 22 like I was but it means that they were in their 30s when attending and man I hope the 30s aren't considered to be later in life.



    30s is certainly later than 22 and I would assume that most of us agree there's a big maturity difference between finishing college at 22 vs 32. Yes they "did it all by themselves" but imo opinion LW is highlighting that to show why education is extra important to them. They worked to go (obviously it was cheaper then, etc, etc), found the experience rewarding, and offered that experience to others. I fail to see how that makes them pretentious buttheads. 
    LW is also implying that the education helped them think differently about the world.  It has the implication that this is better compared to the uneducated alternative. 

    And believe me in several ways I can also agree with the LW to a degree.  Higher education has many benefits and if there's anything the last 6 years showed us it's the lack of critical thinking in the uneducated voter.  

    But that does not mean that college is for everyone.     Maybe LW can handle a leaky faucet, a broken compressor for their Central Air, bad electrical wiring in their home and they also have the equipment and means to take down tall oak trees in their yard when they want to prevent accidents.  However all of what I cited are done by people who need technical training and licenses that are not in a standard 4 year university and yet if you have no heat on Christmas Day night (my brother this year), your critical thinking isn't going to clean your boiler.

    The letter reminds me a lot of the one from a month or so ago from the guy who used to work in a restaurant and now that job is beneath him.  
    And trade skills are obviously important too, that's never been up for debate. I think LW offering to fund a college education is generous and that learning those critical thinking skills could benefit anyone and that everyone should think more critically about the world. Just because LW is offering something that the vast majority of high school students want and attempt (especially 20 years ago) doesn't mean they think everyone else stupid. i didn't read that at all in this letter - it's ok if you did, but I think you're making big leaps about their intentions. 

    The LW also doesn't say "those kids wanted to go to trade school, but NO $$ for that bc it's not traditional college and only that route is acceptable". They said no to funding weddings and home purchases. Very reasonable distinction. They may have funded any sort of education if asked, we dont' know that anyone did, just that they didn't accept the opportunity as presented. That's ok too. 
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    Yeah - to be clear I don't think that the LW is the bad guy for not funding weddings or downpayments on homes.

    But I think there's an arrogance in the LW's tone .
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    Yes, LW's tone could be read as arrogance, but it also could be exasperation with the requests (for 2+ decades) to fund other expenses when they were clear on the why and what behind the offer.  LW is allowed to be proud of their accomplishments and I don't think their desire to help their family find the same achievement is misplaced. 

    However, if LW is communicating with their family with the same tone in this letter, I can see how their backs may have gone up.  I actually find the most judgmental thing about this letter is when LW states, "I was in a position to do that, and I knew their parents weren't".  No matter the intention of this gift, if you're projecting that attitude (intentionally or not), I can see how it made their 'sibs' (such a dumb word, LW) feel lesser than or that LW was criticizing their parenting or financial priorities.  

    I think this a little bit 'no good deed/offer goes unpunished' and a little bit that LW should be more introspective and understanding that they chose differently than their siblings and shouldn't judge their choices/financial situations/etc.    
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    VarunaTTVarunaTT member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    edited April 2023
    I didn't say anything about LW or their intentions.  I don't think they should've paid for anything other than what they wanted to, full stop.

    But they are being arrogant in their tone about what they did, how they did it, what it cost them, how much they achieved with a college eduction, my parents didn't offer financial help, DH's family took us up on it and they are thriving...it's all a whiff of elitism and up-manship.

    Again, LW could've just written, "I offered to pay the way through a public college for my nieces and nephews.  They declined my offer and instead wanted me to put that money towards their wedding.  I don't want to...do I have to?" But they didn't.  They drew some pretty clear lines between themselves and those other people and the choices made.
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    Yeah - I also take issue (not in this situation but in general with the )' "Why do you have to pay for your kids college??  My parents didn't!"

    You don't *have* to do these things but don't you want to help your kids be in a better position if it's something that they are wanting to pursue and you know, you know that their instincts are to make use of the degree itself and you have the means to help?  If Chiquita told us that she just wanted to go to college to find her way I'm less likely to want to contribute thousands because it's an investment in an experience but if she continues on the "I am wanting to pursue one of these 3 options," I'm going to want to help her.  And I may not be of the means to help finance the entire thing but let's be honest that starting salaries aren't 3x more than they were so you also can't be in the position to say "It's what I did and I was fine" because the alternative sets up your kid for a ton of debt. 
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    VarunaTT said:
    I didn't say anything about LW or their intentions.  I don't think they should've paid for anything other than what they wanted to, full stop.

    But they are being arrogant in their tone about what they did, how they did it, what it cost them, how much they achieved with a college eduction, my parents didn't offer financial help, DH's family took us up on it and they are thriving...it's all a whiff of elitism and up-manship.

    Again, LW could've just written, "I offered to pay the way through a public college for my nieces and nephews.  They declined my offer and instead wanted me to put that money towards their wedding.  I don't want to...do I have to?" But they didn't.  They drew some pretty clear lines between themselves and those other people and the choices made.
    This is where I’m at. I think we all agree here that the issues of COL rises, formal education vs trade school, socioeconomic status, etc are incredibly nuanced. I also don’t think any of us are in disagreement regarding the idea that just because LW agreed to pay for college, doesn’t mean others are entitled to the money for other life events. 

    But what is getting me is LWs tone and the subtle (or not so subtle, depending on how you view it) insinuation that they are superior because of what and how they did things in life. We would have zero problems or debate if LW had just said “I offered money for school only, they didn’t want to go, and now they want me to pay for a wedding. AITA?” 


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    VarunaTTVarunaTT member
    First Anniversary First Comment 5 Love Its First Answer
    edited April 2023
    Just one last thing:  we know quite a bit about this LW.

    We know nothing about these siblings and nieces/nephews except they didn't go to college and they've asked for money for other things.  This is a huge set-up for readers to assume that the extended family is somehow lacking in money and, as we all know in America if you lack money, you lack "character".  While LW is someone who attended college, paid for their wedding, and their own homes, by their own smart decisions and hard work. "As American as apple pie!"

    Extended family could be entitled PoSs...they could also be trade school graduates and/or other types of work environments that don't require a college degree. The reason why this all stinks of elitism is because the LW doesn't ever speak of them at all, while talking a lot about themselves.

    Again, I don't like it, and I suspect LW's family doesn't either.
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    VarunaTT said:


    Extended family could be entitled PoSs...they could also be trade school graduates and/or other types of work environments that don't require a college degree. The reason why this all stinks of elitism is because the LW doesn't ever speak of them at all, while talking a lot about themselves.

    Again, I don't like it, and I suspect LW's family doesn't either.
    Great point.  LW hasn't insulted them but LW clearly thinks highly of their own choices.
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