Expose her.

mrsconn23 · May 2023

Dear Prudence,

Three years ago, my younger sister called me crying and said she was pregnant. She needed money to travel out of state for an abortion. I didn’t even think about it. I transferred every penny of my savings over four thousand dollars. Our family is very conservative and wouldn’t be supportive at all.

Instead, my sister chose to keep the pregnancy. And my money. She tried to justify it as a “gift” and said she needed it for the baby. I protested and she threatened to tell our family that I tried to get her to have an abortion. I was dependent on them for financial support while going to school. I backed off, but cut off contact with my sister. I never even met my nephew and have no desire to.

The pandemic gave me the perfect excuse not to visit, but now my family keeps asking me when I will visit. I don’t know how to handle seeing my sister again or how I will react if she tries to pretend everything is fine. I need some help.

— Going Home

levioosa · May 2023

I agree, however I also think that exposing the sister will backfire and the family will take sister’s side since *gasp* LW gave her money for an abortion instead of supporting her. They probably won’t think anything is wrong with it either. I feel for LW. This all sucks and sister sucks.

short+sassy · May 2023

First off, it's RIDICULOUS the LW sent $4K. It's great they went into panic mode to help their sister. But that's still no reason to let logic completely fly out the window. Especially since it took ALL of their own rainy day money.

I'm going to use Chicago as an example, because it's in the middle of the country and a major airport hub. Plus I've been there before, so I'm somewhat aware of travel prices. $100-$300 for an airline ticket. Even less if you take the bus/train. Hotel/Airbnb for three nights. Let's be generous and say that's $500, but it can be done for less especially you're not staying in the trendier/touristy downtown area near the lake. $300 for food. I'm not sure how much an abortion is, but it's a relatively short out-patient procedure if the patient is less than 12 weeks along. I'm guessing $600. They also could have gotten the pill. I've heard that is around $250. Plus then they wouldn't have had to stay in the city for as long for the recovery and could have saved 1-2 nights on the hotel.

Add that all up, it's less than $2K. And that's assuming the sister had $0 of her own money.

But moving on because that is water under the bridge.

As for the present day, I'd be blunt, "I'll only come to visit if you don't expect me to see Sister. I gave her all of my savings, under false pretenses, because she told me a lie. She's a thief and I will never speak to her again."

I wouldn't disclose what the lie was because I'm a better person than that. But I'd make her life uncomfortable by telling them to ask her. With a warning to pass along that if she lies about the reason, I won't keep her secret anymore.

banana468 · May 2023

I think the LW needs to figure out how much her sister will out her and also how much she cares. Ultimately she gave the sister her savings and the sister did not repay them.

The concern I have with exposing is because of what @short+sassy said. If all the truth comes out the question is how much will the family believe and does the LW care?

I think I'd leave it as, "Sis went through a lot but in that was a serious betrayal of my trust and theft of my money. I do not wish to have a relationship with her."

Just be prepared for the outcome and that it may not be what LW wants.

short+sassy · May 2023

banana468 said:

I think the LW needs to figure out how much her sister will out her and also how much she cares. Ultimately she gave the sister her savings and the sister did not repay them.

The concern I have with exposing is because of what @short+sassy said. If all the truth comes out the question is how much will the family believe and does the LW care?

I think I'd leave it as, "Sis went through a lot but in that was a serious betrayal of my trust and theft of my money. I do not wish to have a relationship with her."

Just be prepared for the outcome and that it may not be what LW wants.

I get the impression the LW isn't close to any of their family. Hence why they haven't gone back to visit for 3 years.

But it will definitely open a can of worms if they don't want to be around their sister.

It also sounds like the only reason they are thinking about visiting is because the family is asking them to. Not because they especially want to go. But I could just be reading into that, because it seems like they've been fine not visiting.

Another option could be contacting the sister. Basically tell her they want nothing to do with her, but will be coming home for a visit. They don't want to see her, but understand that can't be done without it causing a big scene as to why. Ask her to avoid coming over as much as possible and, when it can't be avoided, to keep the contact minimal.

mrsconn23 · May 2023

short+sassy said:

banana468 said:

I think the LW needs to figure out how much her sister will out her and also how much she cares. Ultimately she gave the sister her savings and the sister did not repay them.

The concern I have with exposing is because of what @short+sassy said. If all the truth comes out the question is how much will the family believe and does the LW care?

I think I'd leave it as, "Sis went through a lot but in that was a serious betrayal of my trust and theft of my money. I do not wish to have a relationship with her."

Just be prepared for the outcome and that it may not be what LW wants.

I get the impression the LW isn't close to any of their family. Hence why they haven't gone back to visit for 3 years.

But it will definitely open a can of worms if they don't want to be around their sister.

It also sounds like the only reason they are thinking about visiting is because the family is asking them to. Not because they especially want to go. But I could just be reading into that, because it seems like they've been fine not visiting.

Another option could be contacting the sister. Basically tell her they want nothing to do with her, but will be coming home for a visit. They don't want to see her, but understand that can't be done without it causing a big scene as to why. Ask her to avoid coming over as much as possible and, when it can't be avoided, to keep the contact minimal.

If sister is willing to beg for $4k for an abortion she never gets and then tell their sister they're keeping it as a 'gift', something tells me that if LW tells her to stay away, she'll do the exact opposite.

I guess LW needs to figure out if they really want to blow shit up or not. I can't fathom either of my sister's doing this to me, and even as someone who is really nice, hates confrontation, and finds holding grudges a really hard thing to do, I'm on team blow.it.up.

LW could always be snarky and nickname the baby 4K. LOL

short+sassy · May 2023

mrsconn23 said:

short+sassy said:

banana468 said:

I think the LW needs to figure out how much her sister will out her and also how much she cares. Ultimately she gave the sister her savings and the sister did not repay them.

The concern I have with exposing is because of what @short+sassy said. If all the truth comes out the question is how much will the family believe and does the LW care?

I think I'd leave it as, "Sis went through a lot but in that was a serious betrayal of my trust and theft of my money. I do not wish to have a relationship with her."

Just be prepared for the outcome and that it may not be what LW wants.

I get the impression the LW isn't close to any of their family. Hence why they haven't gone back to visit for 3 years.

But it will definitely open a can of worms if they don't want to be around their sister.

It also sounds like the only reason they are thinking about visiting is because the family is asking them to. Not because they especially want to go. But I could just be reading into that, because it seems like they've been fine not visiting.

Another option could be contacting the sister. Basically tell her they want nothing to do with her, but will be coming home for a visit. They don't want to see her, but understand that can't be done without it causing a big scene as to why. Ask her to avoid coming over as much as possible and, when it can't be avoided, to keep the contact minimal.

If sister is willing to beg for $4k for an abortion she never gets and then tell their sister they're keeping it as a 'gift', something tells me that if LW tells her to stay away, she'll do the exact opposite.

I guess LW needs to figure out if they really want to blow shit up or not. I can't fathom either of my sister's doing this to me, and even as someone who is really nice, hates confrontation, and finds holding grudges a really hard thing to do, I'm on team blow.it.up.

LW could always be snarky and nickname the baby 4K. LOL

Oh yeah! The sister is trash. But it might work because she is the one with more to lose than the LW.

I'm sure she's been scrounging tons of money from the parents over the years to "help her and their grandchild."

charlotte989875 · May 2023

short+sassy said:

First off, it's RIDICULOUS the LW sent $4K. It's great they went into panic mode to help their sister. But that's still no reason to let logic completely fly out the window. Especially since it took ALL of their own rainy day money.

I'm going to use Chicago as an example, because it's in the middle of the country and a major airport hub. Plus I've been there before, so I'm somewhat aware of travel prices. $100-$300 for an airline ticket. Even less if you take the bus/train. Hotel/Airbnb for three nights. Let's be generous and say that's $500, but it can be done for less especially you're not staying in the trendier/touristy downtown area near the lake. $300 for food. I'm not sure how much an abortion is, but it's a relatively short out-patient procedure if the patient is less than 12 weeks along. I'm guessing $600. They also could have gotten the pill. I've heard that is around $250. Plus then they wouldn't have had to stay in the city for as long for the recovery and could have saved 1-2 nights on the hotel.

Add that all up, it's less than $2K. And that's assuming the sister had $0 of her own money.

Okay so I think you’re low-balling here, especially if you’re in a state with TRAP laws.

In Toledo where I volunteered at the clinic a medical abortion (the pill) requires two appointments 24- hours apart and costs $850. Surgical abortion can range from $900-$1300 depending on the procedure. You need to stay for hours after a surgical abortion and you may not be eligible for the pill in all cases.

Just sharing because abortions are rarely covered by insurance except in cases to preserve the life of the mother.

ei34 · May 2023

Ditto the PP who shared wording along the lines of "sister lied and swindled me out of $4,000, so I am staying away from her until she pays me back or until I get over my anger". I feel bad for LW, sounds like her family sucks.

short+sassy · May 2023

charlotte989875 said:

short+sassy said:

First off, it's RIDICULOUS the LW sent $4K. It's great they went into panic mode to help their sister. But that's still no reason to let logic completely fly out the window. Especially since it took ALL of their own rainy day money.

I'm going to use Chicago as an example, because it's in the middle of the country and a major airport hub. Plus I've been there before, so I'm somewhat aware of travel prices. $100-$300 for an airline ticket. Even less if you take the bus/train. Hotel/Airbnb for three nights. Let's be generous and say that's $500, but it can be done for less especially you're not staying in the trendier/touristy downtown area near the lake. $300 for food. I'm not sure how much an abortion is, but it's a relatively short out-patient procedure if the patient is less than 12 weeks along. I'm guessing $600. They also could have gotten the pill. I've heard that is around $250. Plus then they wouldn't have had to stay in the city for as long for the recovery and could have saved 1-2 nights on the hotel.

Add that all up, it's less than $2K. And that's assuming the sister had $0 of her own money.

Okay so I think you’re low-balling here, especially if you’re in a state with TRAP laws.

In Toledo where I volunteered at the clinic a medical abortion (the pill) requires two appointments 24- hours apart and costs $850. Surgical abortion can range from $900-$1300 depending on the procedure. You need to stay for hours after a surgical abortion and you may not be eligible for the pill in all cases.

Just sharing because abortions are rarely covered by insurance except in cases to preserve the life of the mother.

Thanks for the update. The costs for the abortion was the one part I wasn't totally sure about. Still. Even with higher numbers, for the procedures or the pill, it's way under $3K. I know it's family. But the LW could have quickly figured out a reasonable cost, instead of blindly giving their sister all of their money. I don't understand why people do that, unless it's money they won't miss.

I helped a friend (not monetarily) with an abortion 20+ years ago, I realize that was a super long time. It was $250 at that time, if the patient was less than 12 weeks along. The medical abortion pills were $400, which is why I'd been surprised when people online have thrown around numbers like $250 so I'm not entirely surprised that is incorrect. More than 12 weeks, had to be a surgery, but still outpatient in their office. My friend got the first kind of procedure, so I don't remember much about the surgical one. Are they both called surgical? My friend described it as being a machine, but she wasn't cut open at all. The majority of abortions are done within the first 12 weeks, so that was my assumption for what the sister would have been looking at.

My friend only stayed at the doctor's office for about 20 minutes after her procedure and then she was released to go home. She had been told ahead of time not to drive afterwards, hence why I was there. I didn't stay with her when I dropped her off at home. But she told me afterwards that she mostly stayed in bed that day and the next day. She was back at work after that and said she felt fine.

At any rate, that was what I based my rough costs and the recovery time on.

--------------------------------------------

HHHMMMMMMM...I just had another thought. Is this a fake letter? Because they talk about this being 3 years ago. That was before Roe vs. Wade was overturned and even in the shittiest states for women's medical care you might have to travel a bit with overnight being a possibility, but wouldn't have had to leave the state unless the closest larger city was in another state. That would have cut down on the transportation costs.

Here in Louisiana...which already had a trigger law in place because that's how much they suck...there were abortion clinics open in at least the New Orleans area and Shreveport when Roe vs. Wade was overturned. That covered a lot of the state's population (not everybody) where patients would be close enough to one of those cities that they wouldn't need an overnight stay, which also cuts down a lot on the costs I mentioned.

Edited to add: I'm referring to overnight stays at a hotel for recovery before traveling back home. Or to wait the 24 hours between appointments for the pill (as @charlotte989875 mentioned). Not at a hospital. I realize a hospital stay is thankfully very rare for any type of abortion.

VarunaTT · May 2023

It could be MUD -- but it really depends on your state. Even before Roe was overturned, MO only had 1-2 clinics for the state that you could access abortions (I'm saying 1-2 b/c I'm not really sure KC had access, it might've just been StL). Even getting a medically necessary D&C was hard in my small city; we have 2 major health systems and one of them is Catholic.

RE: the overnight stay: that's how they did make it more expensive. So, they couldn't outlaw the medical procedure itself, but they could put all sorts of rules around it that made it harder. I'm pretty sure MO did have one where you had to have your consult w/an U/S on day one, then come back after X amount of hours, but before X amount of hours, to be able to have the abortion and U/S had to happen at the clinic you were getting the procedure. It forced either an overnight stay or a driver who could take you back and forth to both appointments. For MO, there's a LOT of state between StL and KC and it was difficult. So now, driver, reliable car, money for gas, ability to miss 2 days of work, etc. It adds up fast.

MissKittyDanger · May 2023

mrsconn23 said:

short+sassy said:

banana468 said:

I think the LW needs to figure out how much her sister will out her and also how much she cares. Ultimately she gave the sister her savings and the sister did not repay them.

The concern I have with exposing is because of what @short+sassy said. If all the truth comes out the question is how much will the family believe and does the LW care?

I think I'd leave it as, "Sis went through a lot but in that was a serious betrayal of my trust and theft of my money. I do not wish to have a relationship with her."

Just be prepared for the outcome and that it may not be what LW wants.

I get the impression the LW isn't close to any of their family. Hence why they haven't gone back to visit for 3 years.

But it will definitely open a can of worms if they don't want to be around their sister.

It also sounds like the only reason they are thinking about visiting is because the family is asking them to. Not because they especially want to go. But I could just be reading into that, because it seems like they've been fine not visiting.

Another option could be contacting the sister. Basically tell her they want nothing to do with her, but will be coming home for a visit. They don't want to see her, but understand that can't be done without it causing a big scene as to why. Ask her to avoid coming over as much as possible and, when it can't be avoided, to keep the contact minimal.

If sister is willing to beg for $4k for an abortion she never gets and then tell their sister they're keeping it as a 'gift', something tells me that if LW tells her to stay away, she'll do the exact opposite.

I guess LW needs to figure out if they really want to blow shit up or not. I can't fathom either of my sister's doing this to me, and even as someone who is really nice, hates confrontation, and finds holding grudges a really hard thing to do, I'm on team blow.it.up.

LW could always be snarky and nickname the baby 4K. LOL

Hehehe bolded

short+sassy · May 2023

VarunaTT said:

It could be MUD -- but it really depends on your state. Even before Roe was overturned, MO only had 1-2 clinics for the state that you could access abortions (I'm saying 1-2 b/c I'm not really sure KC had access, it might've just been StL). Even getting a medically necessary D&C was hard in my small city; we have 2 major health systems and one of them is Catholic.

RE: the overnight stay: that's how they did make it more expensive. So, they couldn't outlaw the medical procedure itself, but they could put all sorts of rules around it that made it harder. I'm pretty sure MO did have one where you had to have your consult w/an U/S on day one, then come back after X amount of hours, but before X amount of hours, to be able to have the abortion and U/S had to happen at the clinic you were getting the procedure. It forced either an overnight stay or a driver who could take you back and forth to both appointments. For MO, there's a LOT of state between StL and KC and it was difficult. So now, driver, reliable car, money for gas, ability to miss 2 days of work, etc. It adds up fast.

I'm still calling MUD, mainly because this is more the kind of dialogue you hear nowadays. Not 3 years ago. But totally agree. It's possible overnight stays are required either because of distance or bullshit rules states imposed. I wasn't thinking about some of the weirdo laws, until you mentioned it.

I mean look how big TX is and they are one of the worst for women's health.

It's expensive, especially on top of paying for the procedure or pills. I definitely wasn't ever trying to deny that.

But my posts about money were only referring to how stupid the LW was in giving his sister $4K. A bus ride to the next largest city (if the sister doesn't have a car), plus the procedure cost, plus a few nights in a hotel is less than half that.

I was initially reading the letter like it would be in the present day. Where it's very possible someone would have to travel many states away, which might need a plane ride. It sickens me to know that women in my city now, need to travel 800+ miles away.

levioosa · May 2023

TBH I didn’t bat an eyelash at the $4k. That sounds completely possible depending on time off work, bills, cost of abortion, need for overnight accommodations, etc. It’s pretty close to the amount I personally want to have stashed away just in case I have to travel to get one. I know I live in CA but this whole country just feels like one long depressing descent into the Handmaid’s Tale.

EF words

charlotte989875 · May 2023

short+sassy said:

VarunaTT said:

It could be MUD -- but it really depends on your state. Even before Roe was overturned, MO only had 1-2 clinics for the state that you could access abortions (I'm saying 1-2 b/c I'm not really sure KC had access, it might've just been StL). Even getting a medically necessary D&C was hard in my small city; we have 2 major health systems and one of them is Catholic.

RE: the overnight stay: that's how they did make it more expensive. So, they couldn't outlaw the medical procedure itself, but they could put all sorts of rules around it that made it harder. I'm pretty sure MO did have one where you had to have your consult w/an U/S on day one, then come back after X amount of hours, but before X amount of hours, to be able to have the abortion and U/S had to happen at the clinic you were getting the procedure. It forced either an overnight stay or a driver who could take you back and forth to both appointments. For MO, there's a LOT of state between StL and KC and it was difficult. So now, driver, reliable car, money for gas, ability to miss 2 days of work, etc. It adds up fast.

I'm still calling MUD, mainly because this is more the kind of dialogue you hear nowadays. Not 3 years ago. But totally agree. It's possible overnight stays are required either because of distance or bullshit rules states imposed. I wasn't thinking about some of the weirdo laws, until you mentioned it.

I mean look how big TX is and they are one of the worst for women's health.

It's expensive, especially on top of paying for the procedure or pills. I definitely wasn't ever trying to deny that.

But my posts about money were only referring to how stupid the LW was in giving his sister $4K. A bus ride to the next largest city (if the sister doesn't have a car), plus the procedure cost, plus a few nights in a hotel is less than half that.

I was initially reading the letter like it would be in the present day. Where it's very possible someone would have to travel many states away, which might need a plane ride. It sickens me to know that women in my city now, need to travel 800+ miles away.

Even 3 years ago- I worked at the clinic in 2016- we had TONS of people from out of state, mainly Indiana but some further, because even though we were a 7+ hour drive it was still closer and we (at the time) and marginally less restrictive laws. So we still had a 24 hour waiting period, our doctors had to have privileges at hospitals, they only could work certain days, so it could get really really expensive.

We also couldn’t dispense pain meds directly (no pharmacy on site) so patients had to get a prescription at the clinic and then get it filled at a pharmacy (luckily there were a few nearby) and then have the procedure.

Ohio sucked.

short+sassy · May 2023

charlotte989875 said:

Even 3 years ago- I worked at the clinic in 2016- we had TONS of people from out of state, mainly Indiana but some further, because even though we were a 7+ hour drive it was still closer and we (at the time) and marginally less restrictive laws. So we still had a 24 hour waiting period, our doctors had to have privileges at hospitals, they only could work certain days, so it could get really really expensive.

We also couldn’t dispense pain meds directly (no pharmacy on site) so patients had to get a prescription at the clinic and then get it filled at a pharmacy (luckily there were a few nearby) and then have the procedure.

Ohio sucked.

That's the other infuriating law I remember.

That's how I knew about the Shreveport clinic. Louisiana tried passing a law like that a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure it failed. Which shocked me, but pleasantly.

I learned more about it. Because, at first to a lay person like me, that sounded reasonable. But I found out that for a doctor to have hospital privileges, they need to have a certain number of patients per year who end up in the hospital. So if a doctor's primary services are abortions, they often don't have hospital privileges because their patients so rarely need to go to the hospital.

If it had passed, the only Louisiana medical office that was performing abortions and could continue was an OB/GYN in Shreveport. He had hospital privileges because his main specialty was high risk pregnancies.

But he said he would discontinue performing abortions if he was the only office in the state, because he was afraid his staff and their families would become targets.

MyNameIsNot · May 2023

levioosa said:

TBH I didn’t bat an eyelash at the $4k. That sounds completely possible depending on time off work, bills, cost of abortion, need for overnight accommodations, etc. It’s pretty close to the amount I personally want to have stashed away just in case I have to travel to get one. I know I live in CA but this whole country just feels like one long depressing descent into the Handmaid’s Tale.

EF words

Same. Time off work isn't in the calculation, but it sounds like LW and the sister are both young. It's not unreasonable that sister had a shitty job with no PTO, so missing a couple of shifts might mean she needs to come up with some extra cash to cover rent.

But more important than that, LW was a young student from a conservative family in presumably a conservative state. They probably didn't know how much an abortion would cost, how long sister would need to be somewhere, and weren't focused on the money. LW heard that sister was in trouble and needed money, so they sent everything they could without hesitation. Maybe not the smartest thing in the world, but really not that surprising or out of character for someone super young who didn't previously have any reason not to trust their sister.

Expose her.

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