Nursing on a zoom?

Casadena · November 2023

My company still telecommutes, and I have a serious problem with “Nell.” Nell just got back from maternity leave and is nursing her baby. In fact, she will do it while we are in a Zoom meeting and forget to turn off her camera—so I get a huge eyeful. The first time, I immediately told Nell what happened and asked if she could be more careful in the future. Nell snapped at me to grow up and said that everything was natural with nursing like this. I dropped the subject. Nell has done this three or four times since then. My team is mostly women, so it seems I am the only one seriously weirded out. I don’t really want to escalate the situation, but I don’t understand why it is so hard to turn off the camera when it is time to feed the baby. What should I do? And what should I say?

—Eye Full

banana468 · November 2023

This makes me sound super unfeeling but if she's back from maternity leave and she's with her baby she's not working. You can't be childcare and working at the same time as a rule.

Nursing is natural. So is parenting. It's not about the eyeful of boob on Zoom - it's that your children do not belong in business calls and furthermore, the presence of the baby implies that she's working and with her baby at the same time. That would make me more upset and I'd push back harder with HR because it's a clear perception that parents are welcome to work with their kids during office hours and I'd have major issues if that's considered the rule rather than the exception to it.

Casadena · November 2023

I agree with you @banana468! I'm all for nursing as needed anywhere you're comfortable etc etc, but she shouldn't have her kid at all on a work call. I would guess they have a nanny or something at home so mom can nurse instead of pump (I have lots of friends/colleagues who did this) but I don't think it's ok to pump/nurse on camera with your colleagues bc kiddos should not be attending meetings with mom.

MyNameIsNot · November 2023

ESH in my opinion. If LW was acting like this to a stranger who was feeding their baby in a restaurant or something, they'd be massively out of line. But also, the perception is that Nell is distracted when she should be working. A simple "hey Nell, you forgot to turn your camera off" should have been fine, and she should have turned it off with a simple thanks.

ei34 · November 2023

Nell is being super unprofessional. And if it’s just her and the baby at home, without another parent or nanny doing the caregiving, she’s not working, at least not her agreed upon hours. I nursed all of my kids and then pumped for when I was at work. I cant imagine it would’ve went over well if I’d brought my babies into school and breastfed them in front of a class of students…LW was fine to say something to Nell. (And I say this as someone who agrees that breastfeeding is natural and don’t think women should hide in corners or closets when it’s time to nurse.)

eta- grammar

banana468 · November 2023

The only thing that may make the LW the issue is if LW isn't in a position of authority. First answer is "Oh Nell you left your camera on!" but once it becomes a pattern of behavior then you ask the question to HR about camera protocols and the structure of expectations of WFH employees with kids.

Not a nursing Nell but I was MORTIFIED during the first week of Covid when my then 5 yo yelled while I was on an internal not visual call, "Mom! WIPE MY RUUUMP!"

I nursed Chiquito for 2 years and pumped for over a year. I did my absolute best to be muted while pumping and NEVER pumped on camera.

mrsconn23 · November 2023

I'm pro-bfing and if you can keep your baby at home and not let it affect your work (and it's allowed by your company), more power to you. I agree that if she's otherwise getting her job done then I don't care that her baby is at home.

But it's just a lack of professionalism to have the baby on camera (bfing or not) or frankly, around during meetings. Yes, you can BF and do other things, but you seriously shouldn't be discussing quarterly numbers and switching boobs while on camera.

Also, I know I can position my camera to show just my face. It's not that hard. So Nell is just being an asshole, IMO. LW could report a hostile work environment if they wanted to. I don't know if it's the route I would go, but it's an option. I know in our employee guidelines, you can get in trouble for swearing at or to yourself and it makes someone else uncomfortable.

banana468 · November 2023

It makes me wonder if Nell is looking for a fight so she can file hostile work environment and have an extended maternity leave on unemployment?

short+sassy · November 2023

I was all kinds of confused reading this letter, though not from the letter itself.

First I read the title and assumed the letter was about being a nurse, as a profession. And was thinking, "Telehealth is so common. Why would it be weird for a nurse to be helping a patient on a Zoom call."

Then in the letter, I first read the person's name as Neil. As in the masculine name. And was thinking, "Why would a man be breastfeeding? Science has not come that far yet, lol. Oh wait, maybe the woman's name is Neil? That's so weird." And then I reread the name correctly.

Time for afternoon coffee. And I will not be loudly slurping it on a Zoom call.

MesmrEwe · November 2023

I'm "Team LW" escalating this through the proper channels at work. Talk to HR and let them handle it... SNS - Nell is the one creating a hostile work environment. Even if the camera is on, it does NOT need to be pointed at her chest to which she's latching and switching. Or pumping. Or changing a diaper..

If she were pumping/latching at the office, she'd be allowed/expected to be away from her desk while still maintaining/logging dedicated work hours/responsibilities instead of in the room with her coworkers. Her coworkers would not be subject to a boardroom meeting while the baby eats. The baby is not an employee of the company. Other coworkers shouldn't have to "get over themselves" in a professional work environment nor should the child even be there unless an emergency situation (daycare closed or sick kid for example). Nell is choosing to create a needless distraction within the work environment which no other employee is allowed is an HR issue.. Working from home does not entitle one to not have childcare during dedicated working hours.

charlotte989875 · November 2023

A lot of assumptions being made here that Nell isn’t working her agreed upon hours or she’s not actually working because she’s feeding her baby during the day. How do you know she doesn’t have a nanny/ caregiver bringing the baby to her so she can feed, then takes the baby away again? So much yikes assuming she’s just trying to get an extended leave or not work because she’s nursing during the day.

FTR- I nursed M at home, during work hours (is was my legally protected right), and worked even more than my expected time because I was coming back in an incredibly demanding time. Of course I never did it on camera.

That said- Nell needs to turn her camera off or change the angle so people can’t see. And if her company isn’t giving her time to nurse/ pump she needs to talk to employee relations/HR because if she’s in the US she’s entitled to nursing breaks. But she has options that don’t include nursing in full view of her team.

banana468 · November 2023

@charlotte989875 if she's doing that on camera she's creating the perception that being back from maternity leave means nursing baby in full view. She may have full care of her child when baby doesn't need to eat but the perception that she's not doing it correctly is her own doing especially when cameras don't need to capture it.

CharmedPam · November 2023

Yes having a baby on a work call is unprofessional and all, but how do you “forget to turn off your camera”? Isn’t your icon always visible to you on the main page?

Casadena · November 2023

Ask a Manager answered an almost identical question (it was the mom writing in) asking if this sort of thing was ok including the point that if in the office, she'd be pumping with the door shut and working then too. Here is Alison's answer which i think encompasses everything we've all talked about and might be interesting:

I’d love for this answer to be “yes, do it without hesitation,” but how it’s perceived may depend on the meeting and to some extent the culture of your office. If it’s a pretty routine meeting with colleagues who know you, you should be able to do this; point the camera strategically and you should be fine. (Do make sure you mute the sound if he’s a noisy eater though.)

If it’s a meeting with a client or other VIPs, or if you’re in a very conservative office, I’d be more hesitant — not because of the breast-feeding, but because I’d be more hesitant to be holding a baby at all during that type of work call, even with no feeding involved. If he starts making noise or squirming or so forth, in some office cultures that’s going to read as you not fully focused on the meeting. That’s not true in all work cultures, though, so that’s where knowing yours comes in.

If you’re in a meeting where you’re not fully comfortable doing it, one option is just to turn off your video for that call (or that portion of the call.)

banana468 · November 2023

Casadena said:

Ask a Manager answered an almost identical question (it was the mom writing in) asking if this sort of thing was ok including the point that if in the office, she'd be pumping with the door shut and working then too. Here is Alison's answer which i think encompasses everything we've all talked about and might be interesting:

I’d love for this answer to be “yes, do it without hesitation,” but how it’s perceived may depend on the meeting and to some extent the culture of your office. If it’s a pretty routine meeting with colleagues who know you, you should be able to do this; point the camera strategically and you should be fine. (Do make sure you mute the sound if he’s a noisy eater though.)
If it’s a meeting with a client or other VIPs, or if you’re in a very conservative office, I’d be more hesitant — not because of the breast-feeding, but because I’d be more hesitant to be holding a baby at all during that type of work call, even with no feeding involved. If he starts making noise or squirming or so forth, in some office cultures that’s going to read as you not fully focused on the meeting. That’s not true in all work cultures, though, so that’s where knowing yours comes in.
If you’re in a meeting where you’re not fully comfortable doing it, one option is just to turn off your video for that call (or that portion of the call.)

Exactly. I pumped frequently and found that I could be productive while pumping but it's not exactly the same thing when nursing. Nursing is more productive for milk production but at least while pumping I could use my hands.

So if you're only expected to be present and visual in these meetings perhaps you can get away with it but by the sheer nature of needing to care for that tiny human you're needing to multitask in a way that your attention can't possibly be totally focused on your work. By the nature of parenting you HAVE to put your kiddo first.

Adding to the frustration is the person not opting out of the very easy solution which is to turn off the stupid camera. Are there many companies that actively love cameras on? I'm grateful that I work in a place where we have VERY few on camera meetings. It seems that the person is creating the battle.

Casadena · November 2023

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

Ask a Manager answered an almost identical question (it was the mom writing in) asking if this sort of thing was ok including the point that if in the office, she'd be pumping with the door shut and working then too. Here is Alison's answer which i think encompasses everything we've all talked about and might be interesting:

I’d love for this answer to be “yes, do it without hesitation,” but how it’s perceived may depend on the meeting and to some extent the culture of your office. If it’s a pretty routine meeting with colleagues who know you, you should be able to do this; point the camera strategically and you should be fine. (Do make sure you mute the sound if he’s a noisy eater though.)
If it’s a meeting with a client or other VIPs, or if you’re in a very conservative office, I’d be more hesitant — not because of the breast-feeding, but because I’d be more hesitant to be holding a baby at all during that type of work call, even with no feeding involved. If he starts making noise or squirming or so forth, in some office cultures that’s going to read as you not fully focused on the meeting. That’s not true in all work cultures, though, so that’s where knowing yours comes in.
If you’re in a meeting where you’re not fully comfortable doing it, one option is just to turn off your video for that call (or that portion of the call.)

Exactly. I pumped frequently and found that I could be productive while pumping but it's not exactly the same thing when nursing. Nursing is more productive for milk production but at least while pumping I could use my hands.

So if you're only expected to be present and visual in these meetings perhaps you can get away with it but by the sheer nature of needing to care for that tiny human you're needing to multitask in a way that your attention can't possibly be totally focused on your work. By the nature of parenting you HAVE to put your kiddo first.

Adding to the frustration is the person not opting out of the very easy solution which is to turn off the stupid camera. Are there many companies that actively love cameras on? I'm grateful that I work in a place where we have VERY few on camera meetings. It seems that the person is creating the battle.

This exactly. My company has shifted to mostly on camera meetings which is super annoying honestly. No one will balk if you have it off occasionally but it's definitely not the norm.

I exclusively pumped with G and mostly nursed with N and absolutely nursing was easier for me/him/the feeding process, but no way I would have been able to actively participate in a meeting or get work done while doing that. Some people might, but i'm skeptical.

ei34 · November 2023

Agree that pumping at work is completely different than nursing, I pumped during the workday and was able to grade, write IEP goals, things where I wasn’t in front of students or coworkers, though I usually just took a break bc that’s what my school permitted, that it be a break. When I nursed I was focused on the baby latched to me…maybe light thoughts like what I should make for dinner? But I wouldn’t have been able to focus on work stuff.

Breastfeeding with a camera on is the kind of action that hurts working from home privileges, imo. I only WFH for a few months at the very height of Covid, but I’m still in favor of others being allowed to do it, if their role allows. I have jealous coworkers who insist there’s no way everyone who’s now allowed to WFH is being as productive as they’d be in person and employees like Nell aren’t helping the argument that one can be just as focused at home. And not bc of the breastfeeding, but the doing it on camera part. So again I’m with LW on them suggesting the camera be off isn’t a huge ask.

charlotte989875 · November 2023

Totally agree that camera off is the only acceptable way to nurse while WFH. I just strongly disagree with the assumptions that she’s not actually working or trying to get extended leave.

Maybe my company is so significantly different but we have had women ask to have laptop hookups and phones in nursing/pumping rooms because their manger expects them to still be available during those times. Or, like my manger who would schedule over my planned and scheduled nursing breaks because “it was the only time that worked”. I did often delay feeds if I could, but sometimes I had to make sure my camera was off and nurse while I was listening. I never did it while I was presenting, but he didn’t eat well from a bottle and my scheduled breaks weren’t always respected.

I’m not defending nursing on camera (again, super unprofessional) but there are still some companies that are pretty resistant to making accommodations for nursing moms, especially male dominated ones like mien, and most women are just doing the best they can.

That said- the LW should talk to Nell privately and again suggest turning the camera off. If she refuses I’d say talk to her manager, gently, and say that her nursing with the camera on is distracting to the team meeting and to please ask her to turn the angle or turn it off.

ETA: I also never took lunches, worked after M went to sleep, and on the weekends- so let’s not assume that women who are trying to nurse and work are just taking advantage of the system. Most women at my company who were in the same situation worked more hours as soon as they returned to ensure their teams knew they were committed to the work.

banana468 · November 2023

@charlotte989875 I'm like you. I nursed through lunches and worked through my pump breaks. Chiquito was in daycare and bottle fed but during the time my company was in transition and he refused a bottle DH brought him to me and I fed him while working.

That said while I nursed/worked it was a PITA. My attention was mostly to him and I felt like my hands had to be repositioned. I didn't have the same luck when Chiquita was born and absolutely felt like I didn't have a great place to pump and having only a desktop computer I couldn't be fully functional. I fully believe that if the company supported me better before I had an office my nursing journey wouldn't have ended after only 6 months for her.

I had a four month old when I was acquired by a new company (employer was forced to close so accounts moved to my current employer and me with them). It was an absolute nightmare. I worked a ton of hours so believe me I get it.

I don't think women who nurse and work are taking advantage. I think THIS woman is taking advantage.

Nursing on a zoom?

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