Here's another pressing issue

maratea · April 2010

http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-abortion-bills-become-law/article/3457167?custom_click=pod_headline_usnational-news

Opinions? (If you can get it up for another thought-provoking post.)

Celles · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:c1277870-df30-42b2-b2f7-026aea971a31">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Second, there were no exceptions made for rape or incest victims. If I were raped/victim of incest and decided to have an abortion, I wouldn't really want to be reminded again and again of what happened. Sure it's probably something that will always stay with those people, but why make it even worse.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]

I'm pro-choice. I have also been a victim of sexual assault, so believe me when I say I understand and appreciate the empathy behind this sentiment.

That said: I have never understood how some people can claim to be anti-abortion "except in cases of rape or incest." If abortion is murder, then abortion is ALWAYS murder, regardless of the circumstances leading to conception. It makes no sense whatsoever for someone who takes morale umbrage with abortion to condone it in some cases but not in others -- so I understand anti-abortion lawmakers declining to make exceptions for victims of rape or incest. While I don't respect them for seeking to undermine my right to choose, I do respect them for sticking to their guns.

526SadieSadie · April 2010

and Celles, typically the ones who are anti-abortion are pro-death penalty, try to figure that shite out!!

maratea · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:01311fd4-c166-48ec-911c-108830eae747">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Here's another pressing issue : abortion is murder, then abortion is ALWAYS murder, regardless of the circumstances leading to conception. It makes no sense whatsoever for someone who takes morale umbrage with abortion to condone it in some cases but not in others -- so I understand anti-abortion lawmakers declining to make exceptions for victims of rape or incest. While I don't respect them for seeking to undermine my right to choose, I do respect them for sticking to their guns.
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]
The logical, rational me agrees with you on this and that "abortion is murder, except in these cases" is hypocritical, but at the same time, part of the emotional me feels like those people are being punished for a choice they didn't make (being a victim, not the abortion itself).

andy71781 · April 2010

Celles I sent you a PM

tairairat · April 2010

I personally, could never abort an "accidental" child. I can't say how I would react if it were a child conceived due to rape/incest because I haven't been in that situation.

That said, I have no right to tell another woman what she can and can't do with her life and her decisions regarding her pregnancy. I can offer advice if they want it and ask for it, but that's where any role I could have in that would end.

I do agree that better access to information and birth control in the form of the pill or condoms would most likely decrease unwanted pregnancies and the abortions that are a result of a percentage of some of those.

I do not see how ultrasounds could be invasive (as the article suggests they may be) as I think they should be part of the procedure to help ensure the safety of the mother by making sure the abortion was performed correctly. Regardless of what a woman chooses she has a right to adequate and safe healthcare, and that her recovery (at least physically) won't be complicated by issues regarding non-removal (that just sounds so cold to me and I can't find a different way to word it) of tissue.

andy71781 · April 2010

My problem with ultrasounds is all of the emotional stuff that goes into listening to a heartbeat and potentially seeing the fetus. I feel like it would make a hard decision that much harder, more painful and debillitating in the long run. I feel for my friends who have gone through with getting an abortion and for the fifteen year old who got knocked up and is considering abortion. She will probably already have to wait 24-48 hours, read nonscientific literature and obtain parental consent. I don't think that abortion is something that people come into lightly (though there are the unfortunate cases for sure). If the information acquired from the ultrasound can be obtained by less emotion-provoking means I think its important for that to happen.

526SadieSadie · April 2010

Andy, the ultrasound for an abortion isn't like the one in a OB-GYN's office, there is no heartbeat to hear and you don't have to look at the screen if you don't want to see it and they don't show you the picture unless you ask. They don't let you go through with the procedure until you've spoken to an in-house counselor and you can back out right up until they give you the point of no return pill, which they alert you of basically until you put it in your mouth.

The problem I have is the evil first amendment protected jerkoffs that stand with their disgusting signs in front of clinics. The pictures they have aren't even of products of abortion like they claim. They find the grossest pictures they can of fetuses that die in utero of natural causes. They're results of D&C 's, not abortions. In my hometown there's a women's clinic right near the elementary school where my nephew went for a year. Little kids don't need to see those pictures, THAT'S harmful. Isn't it more important to protect the children that are already here???

andy71781 · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:3cdc3245-6e50-4617-b0d4-78f7a2c17b89">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Andy, the ultrasound for an abortion isn't like the one in a OB-GYN's office, there is no heartbeat to hear and you don't have to look at the screen if you don't want to see it and they don't show you the picture unless you ask. They don't let you go through with the procedure until you've spoken to an in-house counselor and you can back out right up until they give you the point of no return pill, which they alert you of basically until you put it in your mouth. The problem I have is the evil first amendment protected jerkoffs that stand with their disgusting signs in front of clinics. The pictures they have aren't even of products of abortion like they claim. They find the grossest pictures they can of fetuses that die in utero of natural causes. They're results of D&C 's, not abortions. In my hometown there's a women's clinic right near the elementary school where my nephew went for a year. Little kids don't need to see those pictures, THAT'S harmful. Isn't it more important to protect the children that are already here???
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]

Oh ok cool. I feel you. I totally agree that the protesters are jerks. I REALLY hate that they heckle girls who are coming in to get BCPs or condoms.

Celles · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:4a1e124c-d165-4c51-8391-872e9bb08949">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]My problem with ultrasounds is all of the emotional stuff that goes into listening to a heartbeat and potentially seeing the fetus. I feel like it would make a hard decision that much harder, more painful and debillitating in the long run.
Posted by andy71781[/QUOTE]

I think that's probably the real point of the legislation. The anti-abortion side wants to make abortion as difficult a choice as possible to make, while the pro-chocie side resents what it no doubt views as "emotional blackmail."

I'm kind of torn. I'm strongly pro-choice, and yet I would never choose abortion for myself. I think abortion SHOULD be a difficult choice, and I think someone who has doubts SHOULD err on the side of life -- for her own peace of mind if nothing else. But I would never attempt to legislate that opinion, because it is highly personal.

Celles · April 2010

Just saw Sadie's post -- nevermind!

526SadieSadie · April 2010

I took a friend (which is why I'm so well informed) and the security guard told us about the photos. A protester called my friend "little mother" and was trying to talk her out of it by saying that Jesus wanted her to have a baby. I glared at this woman like I have never glared before and screamed out "Jesus thinks YOU"RE AN ASSHOLE" and got my friend inside. I got a high five from the security guard.

Celles · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:7ee29240-9b9c-446c-9f51-4683cb68203a">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Celles I sent you a PM
Posted by andy71781[/QUOTE]

Back atcha!

Celles · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:27867788-4ab8-44c1-b752-a7356e6e3545">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]I took a friend (which is why I'm so well informed) and the security guard told us about the photos. A protester called my friend "little mother" and was trying to talk her out of it by saying that Jesus wanted her to have a baby. I glared at this woman like I have never glared before and screamed out "Jesus thinks YOU"RE AN ASSHOLE" and got my friend inside. I got a high five from the security guard.
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]

You rock.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2010

I'm 100% pro choice. Also, abortion technically IS birth control, as it prevents birth. But it's certainly the most invasive and least convenient method, IMO.

That's all I have to say. For now. I might change my mind and come back to this, but it's too late in the day for me to have the energy now.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:c1277870-df30-42b2-b2f7-026aea971a31">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE] FWIW, I'm pro-choice, but I'm open to all ideas and opinions. I would never ever criticize a woman's stance on abortion because, to me, this is an extremely personal choice.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]

I agree that it's a personal choice. And if someone says they loathe abortions, would never have one, wishes they were unnecessary... yeah, awesome. But if someone campaigns to take away my legal right to an abortion and criminally persecute those who have them, we're gonna have to butt heads. :-)

mica178 · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:01311fd4-c166-48ec-911c-108830eae747">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE] That said: I have never understood how some people can claim to be anti-abortion "except in cases of rape or incest." If abortion is murder, then abortion is ALWAYS murder, regardless of the circumstances leading to conception. It makes no sense whatsoever for someone who takes morale umbrage with abortion to condone it in some cases but not in others -- so I understand anti-abortion lawmakers declining to make exceptions for victims of rape or incest. While I don't respect them for seeking to undermine my right to choose, I do respect them for sticking to their guns.
Posted by Celles[/QUOTE]

I 100% agree with Celles.

But I also agree that Jesus thinks those protesters outside of PP are assh0les.

fpaemp2011 · April 2010

This is my soapbox...I'm standing on this one. I am not responding to any particular poster, either in agreement or opposition. These are my beliefs based on my faith in God as a Christian, and experiences with friends and families close to me.

I absolutely believe that a mother should have to look at her perfectly innocent son or daughter moving and living within her before she murders him or her.

I believe that only God can dictate when to end a life. (This also forms my opinions on the Death Penalty, which I do have issues with). For cases where the child has physical deformities visible on the ultrasound, God has a purpose for them, no matter how “short” their life may be. There is a family in my church that has been affected by Trisomy 13 (Patau Syndrome) which is 80% fatal in the first month of life. (from Webmd.com). Their daughter lived for 47 minutes after birth. They were told about halfway through the pregnancy that they should terminate. They said that their daughter’s life was not in their hands.

I have a very close friend who was told her son had severe physical deformities, a 5% chance of making it to full term, and a 0% chance of living outside the womb. She knew God was in control, and her son is now 4 years old and while he does have some health issues, he is walking, talking, and absolutely precious.
Special needs children have a purpose. It is sad that this package of laws had to include one that "simply states that a doctor cannot be sued based on the opinion after birth that a child would have been better off if he or she had been aborted," said state Rep. Dan Sullivan. (from the CNN article).

And in cases of rape or incest, while they are horrible and a friend of mine is a victim (although she prefers the term survivor) of rape, a mother shouldn't murder their son or daughter that had nothing to do with what happened. God has a purpose for their life, as well, and it's not up to their mother to take that away from them. I am a strong advocate of adoption in cases where the mother doesn't feel she can care for her child be it financially, emotionally, or physically as well as the child deserves.

maratea · April 2010

Fpaemp- thank you for posting another side to this and you bring up very good, valid points. And this "I am a strong advocate of adoption in cases where the mother doesn't feel she can care for her child be it financially, emotionally, or physically as well as the child deserves."-- I am in agreement with you on this, in all cases, not just the abortion area. I think mothers who do not have an abortion, but really can't take care of a child should consider what kind of life their child would have if the child were adopted. In a neighborhood near me, people are so poor they can't take care of themselves, let alone a child.

andy71781 · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:8ee56010-5f54-4b6d-a421-ece797264055">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Fpaemp- thank you for posting another side to this and you bring up very good, valid points. And this " I am a strong advocate of adoption in cases where the mother doesn't feel she can care for her child be it financially, emotionally, or physically as well as the child deserves."-- I am in agreement with you on this, in all cases, not just the abortion area. I think mothers who do not have an abortion, but really can't take care of a child should consider what kind of life their child would have if the child were adopted. In a neighborhood near me, people are so poor they can't take care of themselves, let alone a child.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]
Speaking of adoption - I was watching the 16 and pregnant reunion special today and Dr. Drew (yummo) told me that like less than 10% of pregnant teens give their babies up for adoption. Whah? I think that the pro-life community could do a lot of good by making nice with the pro-choice community and make adoption easier for teenage girls. I have no idea how (medical care, postnatum support etc) but it has got to be possible imop.

Becky&Chris · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:3a6a2938-4085-4119-855f-420985ef7134">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Sen. Connie Johnson, D- <a href="http://www.newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+City&CATEGORY=CITY" rel="nofollow">www.newsok.com/keysearch/?er=1&CANONICAL=Oklahoma+City&CATEGORY=CITY</a> " title="Oklahoma City"> Oklahoma City , urged lawmakers to support efforts to increase sexual education and access to birth control. "Free birth control is the way to prevent abortions," she said. Read more: <a href="http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-abortion-bills-become-law/article/3457167?custom_click=pod_headline_usnational-news#ixzz0mKa43qfA" rel="nofollow">www.newsok.com/oklahoma-abortion-bills-become-law/article/3457167?custom_click=pod_headline_usnational-news#ixzz0mKa43qfA</a> "> <a href="http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-abortion-bills-become-law/article/3457167?custom_click=pod_headline_usnational-news#ixzz0mKa43qfA" rel="nofollow">http://www.newsok.com/oklahoma-abortion-bills-become-law/article/3457167?custom_click=pod_headline_usnational-news#ixzz0mKa43qfA</a> Can we all agree on this?
Posted by andy71781[/QUOTE]

I don't really want to get into the abortion argument, but I totally one hundred million percent agree with this. It really, REALLY gets under my skin when (some) pro-lifers campaign against abortion and then turn around and preach abstinence only. They should line the streets with condoms and inundate people with birth control education. I would happily send my child to a highschool that passed out free condoms on lunch trays. I get that some people still won't get it or use BC, but we should try our hardest to provide it free of cost to those who would.

526SadieSadie · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:eb25ec6d-d727-401b-9a32-a5b5e11a3bce">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]This is my soapbox...I'm standing on this one. I am not responding to any particular poster, either in agreement or opposition. These are my beliefs based on my faith in God as a Christian, and experiences with friends and families close to me. I absolutely believe that a mother should have to look at her perfectly innocent son or daughter moving and living within her before she murders him or her. I believe that only God can dictate when to end a life. (This also forms my opinions on the Death Penalty, which I do have issues with) . For cases where the child has physical deformities visible on the ultrasound, God has a purpose for them, no matter how “short” their life may be. There is a family in my church that has been affected by Trisomy 13 (Patau Syndrome) which is 80% fatal in the first month of life. (from Webmd.com). Their daughter lived for 47 minutes after birth. They were told about halfway through the pregnancy that they should terminate. They said that their daughter’s life was not in their hands. I have a very close friend who was told her son had severe physical deformities, a 5% chance of making it to full term, and a 0% chance of living outside the womb. She knew God was in control, and her son is now 4 years old and while he does have some health issues, he is walking, talking, and absolutely precious. Special needs children have a purpose. It is sad that this package of laws had to include one that " simply states that a doctor cannot be sued based on the opinion after birth that a child would have been better off if he or she had been aborted, " said state Rep. Dan Sullivan. (from the CNN article). And in cases of rape or incest, while they are horrible and a friend of mine is a victim (although she prefers the term survivor) of rape, a mother shouldn't murder their son or daughter that had nothing to do with what happened. God has a purpose for their life, as well, and it's not up to their mother to take that away from them. I am a strong advocate of adoption in cases where the mother doesn't feel she can care for her child be it financially, emotionally, or physically as well as the child deserves.
Posted by fpaemp2011[/QUOTE]

Fpaemp2011: I am so sorry for your loss and you made a very courageous decision not to terminate when you had such a grim diagnosis. However, that was your choice, and isn't it comforting to have choices in life? To choose to end a pregnancy isn't an easy one, and no matter what you might think about the procedure, there is no logical reason to take the choice away from every woman. Personally, I don't think I could make the same decision you made. Our country was founded on the principles that religion and the government are two separate entities. Reversing Roe v. Wade based on religious arguments can't be allowed to happen because it's unconstitutional.
I go back to my point, if you don't believe in abortions, make the choice not to have one, but don't try to take that decision away from anyone else.

526SadieSadie · April 2010

You're very brave to tell us your story Luckyme and I completely support your decision. One of my closest friends "Lily" had a baby when she was 18. Her mom called me every single day begging me to convince her to "get rid of it" right up until the last day it's legal where we live. She had the baby and he is the greatest kid ever. "Lily" has had to struggle in ways neither of us anticipated but she doesn't regret having her son, and she's a fantastic mom. A few years ago, she got pregnant again (different dad) and after some deep thought, she chose abortion. She knew first hand how hard it was to have a child and while she still struggles with the decision, she knew she made the right one. She barely had her head above water taking care of her son, working and going to school, adding a second baby would have sunk her.
The ultrasounds are necessary for patients so the clinic can tell how far along you are and then determine what your options are. The RU-481 pill is only reliable up to 8-9 weeks so that option goes fast. They have to make sure you're still in the first trimester, or whatever the legal cutoff age is in your particular area. The problem with the new law that was passed is that they DON"T turn the screen away from you, and they have to describe the fetus in detail, which might sound innocuous but if given details like that, some women who are teetering on the line will back out, which let's face it, is the point.

Simply Fated · April 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_heres-another-pressing-issue?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:07b94134-4689-40da-b426-21e5ec2a1691Post:3cdc3245-6e50-4617-b0d4-78f7a2c17b89">Re: Here's another pressing issue</a>:
[QUOTE]Andy, the ultrasound for an abortion isn't like the one in a OB-GYN's office, there is no heartbeat to hear and you don't have to look at the screen if you don't want to see it and they don't show you the picture unless you ask.
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]

Ah, but according to this law that has all changed....

A few parts of the article from Associated Press...

OKLAHOMA CITY — The requirements of Oklahoma's new abortion law are drawing some emotional responses from patients, a clinic director said Wednesday, now that women must have an ultrasound and hear a detailed description of the fetus before the procedure can be done.

The new statute requires the person performing the ultrasound to describe the dimensions of the fetus, whether arms, legs and internal organs are visible and whether there is cardiac activity. It also requires the doctor to turn a screen depicting the ultrasound images toward the woman to see them.

"It's been difficult for some of the patients," said Linda Meek, executive director of Reproductive Services of Tulsa. "We've had patients leave the ultrasound room in tears because of what they had to hear.

Meek said requiring women to listen to a description can be traumatic, she said, especially for rape and incest victims and women with fetal abnormalities or whose pregnancy threatens their own life.

Full article here...
<a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jH_qmSCStVlX3g2S8mLLF8os2jxgD9FCCNO00" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jH_qmSCStVlX3g2S8mLLF8os2jxgD9FCCNO00</a>

526SadieSadie · April 2010

Right, SimplyFaded, which is why this new law is awful and needs to be repealed and can't be allowed to pass anywhere else.

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