FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.

ally1218 · March 2011

I've been a lurker of this board but I never post. Most of the stuff doesn't make sense to me. lol. Sorry if this turns into a rant with a question at the end....

I'm not Catholic but my FI is, as is his whole family. So generally, I've no idea what's going on. We are having our wedding at his childhood church with his childhood priest. (This guy is 77. When is the retirement age?! Geez.) Well, anyway, he is really busy at his parish because it is a really big church and he has only one other priest there but they usually run with three. Every time I call him, he doesn't want to talk. He finds some excuse to get off the phone. Never calls me, ever, unless he's only returning a call. He never wants to answer any of my questions. Mind, we'll have to talk about them sooner or later but it is really putting me in an odd position with other vendors (like the organist and the photographer). I can understand that he is busy but geez. So he Finally returned my call yesterday (after a week of waiting) and he tells me that 'our FOCCUS test leaves something to be desired.' And we are going to be meeting next week. We haven't given him any of our paperwork just yet. This will be our second meeting since the engagement. The first meeting, he told us about the paperwork we needed and about pre-cana. We did pre-cana the week after that and the paperwork was easy to get, but he didn't want to meet up until March.

Is this normal? How many meetings do yall have with your priest before the wedding? Is there a way to 'fail' your FOCCUS? Will he require something else since we did, apparantly, badly? I'm sorry that this is a rant as well as a question but his parents (who go to that church) are used to his behaviors. I spoke to the receptionist, who is a customer of mine, and she agrees that he is short-tempered so it probably isn't just me, but it is aggravating. I like organization and I'm hating that this isn't going as smoothly as I would like.

mica178 · March 2011

We met with a lady in our church to review the FOCCUS test. There were no major discrepancies that she or our priest identified.

We met with the priest 3 or 4 times between announcing our intent to marry at the church and our wedding. We also did the Engaged Encounter.

I suspect that the priest will review any concerns he has about your FOCCUS test when he meets with you next week. I don't think there's necessarily a "right or wrong" way to do the test, but if you and your FI answered questions completely differently (especially in ways that could indicate abuse or addiction), red flags are raised. All that would have to be cleared up before the priest could marry you two in good conscience.

Finally, if you indicated that you would not allow future children to be raised in the Catholic church, the priest would want to talk about that because you might be ineligible to marry there if that's the case.

ootmother2 · March 2011

I'm sorry you're having a hard time with the priest and feel free to vent or ask questions here or anywhere on the knot.

lol about retirement age

Unfortunately, these days more priests are working way past the ordinary retirement age because of the shortage of priests. I *think* priests ordinarily retire at 72 but I don't know if that's a rule. The priests I've known have retired by then.

I haven't taken the FOCCUS as I'm a MOB and they didn't have it when I got married, many, many ages ago. My DD & SIL did their pre cana with a married couple a bit older than they were. The other ladies on this board will have more info on that though.

Good luck with your planning.

ally1218 · March 2011

I do remember that there was a spot where it asked if I would consider converting and an additional spot asking if I would raise our children Catholic. First, and no offense, but I can't consider converting. And our children would be raised in a church, not The church. My FI isn't particularly religious. We are doing this for his family because they are really religious, and I couldn't care less where as long as I marry him at the end of the day. Would he consider not to do the wedding at all? Why would he not mention that at all in the first meeting we had?

ootmother2 · March 2011

I see your wedding date is three months off so it's understandable that you're getting frustrated (to say the least) with someone who doesn't seem to be timely.

By your second post, if you said that you have no intention of raising your children Catholic, that may be the problem. I believe that most priests require that the non Catholic party agree to raise the children as Catholic although some don't. A young couple I know who got married last year said that the husband, who is Jewish wasn't asked.

btw, I hope you didn't refer to the priest as a "vendor" in his presence

ally1218 · March 2011

LOL! No, I don't think of the priest as a vendor. Although, it would be nice if he acted like vendors do... "What can I do for you today because I need your money." Lol. Well, long story short, my mother was raised Catholic. She married a Jewish man (had to convert) and he abused her. She divorced him, obviously. She tried going back to her church and they didn't allow her, unless she paid a fee to the Vatican. So she married an Atheist (doesn't require her to convert! lol) and she always taught us about different religions. I just don't agree with certain doctrines that the Catholic church has or the way that they treated my mother, even if things have changed. Just me personally and no offense to all Catholics on this board. I will teach my children to be open-minded, and to choose their own religion as my mom did for me. Hopefully, that will go over well with him. Because I really really don't want to have to change churchs three months before the wedding.

katetw · March 2011

Unfortunately, that's a real biggie for the church. Not that you don't have reasons that are extremely important to you for not raising your children Catholic -- but I bet that's why he wants to discuss it with you. My fiance and I had to promise to it in our second meeting with the church, and as I understand it, it's a pretty non-negotiable thing. I'm surprised he didn't mention it at your first meeting - it was definitely brought up at ours, and multiple times at pre-Cana.

It's no fun to run into something like that three months before your wedding, though - best of luck.

katetw · March 2011

Side note: while the church may charge a fee for getting married there, it's for administrative costs spread out over the parish. It is very different from others vendors - it's not a case of "what can I do for you today since I need your money" - and as such the priest is going to act like a spiritual leader, not like a vendor. Shrug.

cms4mf · March 2011

According to our priest, the non-catholic spouse doesn't have to agree to raise the kids catholic. BUT the catholic spouse has to agree he/she will do everything in their power to see that the kids are raised catholic, and the non-catholic spouse has to acknowledge their partner made this promise. So basically they're saying since you're not catholic you have no responsibility, but you're aware that your fiance had to make a promise and you should help him keep that promise.

Semantics!

ally1218 · March 2011

That's pretty much blackmail. Figures they would find a way. lol. That made me feel a little bit better. I might be worrying for nothing.

Librarydragon · March 2011

You may want to re-discuss having a Catholic wedding. It's not blackmail to expect someone to fulfill all their vows and promises, including raising children in the faith that one professes to believe.

Hope61 · March 2011

I pretty much second what everyone else said in regards to the Foccus test...

As for your vendors... try talking to the receptionist about that information or see if there's a wedding coordinator for the parish. Often there's someone besides the priest who deals with some of the ceremony details like processional order, where the photographer is allowed to be, etc.

Hannah098 · March 2011

I hope that you can get some answers soon, for a large church usually there is a coordinator that handles some of these things. I have to be honest with you though, and I type this with concern for your happiness. I cannot imagine marrying in a religious center for a religion I do not believe in or agree with. So, I have to say I would urge you to really consider whether YOU and your fiance want to have a wedding in the Catholic church. This is your marriage, not your inlaws. If you are interested in attending any other church as a married couple/family, maybe find a church you'd be interested in attending or becoming members of and see if they will marry you? I hope I do not offend you, and I hope you get everything staightened out soon!

ally1218 · March 2011

I totally understand your concern Hannah and it's pretty hard to offend me. My FI is Catholic but not devout or religious. He doesn't go to church... Well, he does Now because the priest told us to attend, but once this is done, he won't. He hasn't for the past three years. I don't particuliarly care where, to be honest. That has never been one of my concerns. Plus, we have already sent out our invites to our families. If it was a year out, sure, let's reconsider how we want to do this. But I can't change churches now.

FIY Librarydragon. Yes it is. "I don't agree with this." "Okay, I'll just make your spouse promise it and if you are a good wife, you'll help him keep his word because that's what good wives do." Yeah, that's not bullying you around is it.

lisa89760 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_foccus-test-result-meeting-venting?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:856cfa46-6348-4ff8-ab64-2c60e0b55ec4Post:94d73f91-7254-46f1-8f0c-dcf3bedf4859">Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.</a>:
[QUOTE]I totally understand your concern Hannah and it's pretty hard to offend me. :) My<strong> FI is Catholic but not devout or religious. He doesn't go to church... Well, he does Now because the priest told us to attend, but once this is done, he won't. He hasn't for the past three years. I don't particuliarly care where, to be honest. That has never been one of my concerns.</strong> Plus, we have already sent out our invites to our families. If it was a year out, sure, let's reconsider how we want to do this. But I can't change churches now. FIY Librarydragon. Yes it is. "I don't agree with this." "Okay, I'll just make your spouse promise it and if you are a good wife, you'll help him keep his word because that's what good wives do." Yeah, that's not bullying you around is it.
Posted by ally1218[/QUOTE]

The problem is when you agreed to get married in a Catholic church your FI agreed to raise the children catholic so if you are telling your priest that isn't the plan, he's going to say something. Also if your FI doesn't plan on continuing his faith, why is did he even want to get married in the Catholic church in the first place?

My FI and I are both catholic and I will be the first to admit that we are not very religious all the time and I understand the pressue a catholic family can put on someone to get married in the church. We decided to get married in the Catholic church because while we aren't going to church every Sunday now we have no doubt in our mind that our children will be raised catholic and we are already talking about finding a more permanent parish to join (we joined my uncle's parish since he is marrying us).

I don't think your priest is out of line to say something to you guys about your faith...that is what happens when you decide to get married in a church.

bel138 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_foccus-test-result-meeting-venting?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:856cfa46-6348-4ff8-ab64-2c60e0b55ec4Post:94d73f91-7254-46f1-8f0c-dcf3bedf4859">Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.</a>:
[QUOTE]FIY Librarydragon. Yes it is. "I don't agree with this." "Okay, I'll just make your spouse promise it and if you are a good wife, you'll help him keep his word because that's what good wives do." Yeah, that's not bullying you around is it.
Posted by ally1218[/QUOTE]

Why do you want to be married at a place that you very obviously harbor ill will against? I'm being completely serious. You can think whatever you want about the church, but why would you still want to get married there? It would be like being allergic to flowers and getting married in a botanical garden. Are you too afraid to give up the money your FILs are probably giving you? Save yourself the headaches with the church and just get married where you and your FI want. It's really disrespectful to make all these promises in front of your friends, family and God KNOWING you won't keep them.

agapecarrie · March 2011

One of the statement of intetions to make a marriage valid is to be open to children and raise them according to the laws of the church. This is a very very serious thing that if you intend to lie about, will invalidate your marriage. Please do not desecrate the sacrament with a lie.
This isn't blackmail, this is a free choice to marry in the church. IF you feel blackmailed, then you are also not fulilling another statement of intention "do you come here freely without reservation".

If one would never commit perjury in a court of law, how can one consider vowing/oathing to God to do things they have no intention of doing?

Calypso1977 · March 2011

if you dont want to do teh church wedding, pick a new place.
sure, invites have been sent, but you can always send an update indicating that the venue has changed. this happens more often than you think. to say you dont want to make a change because invites have been sent reminds me of brides that change their minds abotu their mate in the 11th hour but dont want to cancel the wedding because its been paid for.

if in your gut you know it isnt right, you still can fix it. God will know the intent in both of your hearts on your wedding day. he will know how you both feel about the church. so sure, teh public catholic ceremony will make your parents feel good, but it wont make God feel good if he knows you are doing it for hte wrong reasons.

does your reception lcoation also do ceremonies? i'm sure you could add the ceremony last minute.

Riss91 · March 2011

It's not blackmail at all. Think of it this way: Why would a priest want to marry someone in the Catholic faith if they do not agree with the faith enough to raise their children in it? Why would a priest want to marry a couple in the faith if they KNEW that one of them was going to aggressively prevent the children from being brought up in the Church?

It would seem to me that if either of those conditions exist, then the bride and groom are likely not the best candidates for a Catholic wedding.

As the non-Catholic, you do not have to commit to raising your children Catholic, you have to commit to NOT INTERFERING with your FI's attempt at doing so. Your FI, the Catholic one, would have to commit to doing the best job he can of bringing them up in the faith.

I would agree with pp that you should only be married in the Catholic church if you can honestly commit to the vows and promises that you'll be reciting. It's really dishonest and offensive to stand up on the altar at which many of us worship and lie in front of your priest, family and friends. You should do what you feel is right and be marry in a ceremony that is meaningful to you and your FI.

laurenes · March 2011

I wouldn't panic yet.

As others have said, agreeing to raise your kids Catholic is a big deal to the Catholic church. Family is very important, and many catholic priests won't let you get married unless you're having kids, and those kids are supposed to be raised Catholic.

While I understand your perfectly logical rational about educating your children about different faiths and letting them make the decision, that is not the Catholic church stance. I won't be quoting doctrine, but the stance is essentially this: Children are not mature enough to make their own decisions/form their own conscience. Just as teachers with a detailed cirriculum are required to form an education, spiritual guidance is required from the parents in a structured environment to develop a sound moral conscience. This environment is the Catholic church (obviously, or the Catholic wouldn't be Catholic).

You may just need your fiance to agree to raise them Catholic.

And with the FOCCUS survey - hate that thing - we scored slightly "lower" than expected because we answered "I don't know" to several questions (because we're not sure what challenges our relationship will face as we grow, etc). Once we explained how we intrepreted the questions we didn't answer the same on - and hence why we gave different answers - the priest was fine with it all. So you may be getting worked up over nothing.

At our engagment encounter weekend, they encouraged the non-Catholics to go to church with the Catholics, and the Catholics to also attend the non-Catholic ceremonies of their spouses, to strength their love by celebrating their faiths together. Chances are that if you say you're going to raise the kids catholic but expose the children to both faiths, you'll probably be ok.

Good Lucl

And P.S. - If you need to change the venue last minute, it won't be the end of the world. It happens.

Calypso1977 · March 2011

agreed, bree.

in fact, most kids you see that were "raised in both faiths" end up being neither faith and are generally adrift when it comes to religion.

morganbyrne · March 2011

My FI is not Catholic (not baptized either, which was a whole mess of paperwork) and I am very Catholic. He recently decided completely of his own volition to become Catholic (I've made it very very clear that I have no interest in forcing, coercing, suggesting, or bullying him into conversion because it wouldn't be real and would never last) but we had already done the FOCCUS test before he expressed any intention of converting or interest in the faith.

1. The Church does NOT demand that the non-Catholic partner promise to raise the children Catholic (as others have mentioned). The promise is that they will not hinder it. The way our priest explained it to us was that you cannot consistantly undermine the Church and the faith to your children, speak ill of it, or work contrary to its purpose in your childrens' lives (telling them not to go to mass, etc)

2. While my fiance and I scored unusually high on our test results, our priest made it abundantly clear that the test is not the be-all-end-all to this process. And a priest would have to have serious grounds to refuse to marry a couple (I have a cousin who went through this process less satisfactorily than I, so I do have a good handle on it). The stages before that are usually questioning (why do you want to be married in the Church?) and then discouraging (I don't feel as though this is the right choice for you) followed by some waiting, a few more meetings, and then the final decision. A priest would more likely ask you to postpone than refuse to marry you.

3. I was a fallen-away Catholic for a very long time. I was raised very strongly Catholic and yes, children are going to make their own decisions. I came back to the faith because of my foundation in it as I matured.

The position of the Church isn't that children are too young to make their own decisions, the position of the Church is that if you truly believe in the faith and you know it intimately, you will want it for your children. A couple seeking to be married in the Church who does not wish the truth of the Church for their children would concern the priest not because it demonstrates bad parenting or doesn't check some box, but because it shows that the couple does not cherish the teachings of the Church. If you were seeking to get married in any other faith and were candid that you found it of so little value that you wouldn't want your children to be raised in it, I can imagine you'd find a similar response.

Hope this helps! I wouldn't honestly worry about what the priest would say, but I think the purpose of the test is to get you and your fiance to talk about these things!

GulfCoaster · March 2011

(Coming to this a bit late, but I just wanted to add my $0.02.)

I don't know what the problem was in your FOCCUS test that the priest was referring to, and it could be a minor red flag that really isn't a big deal once you talk about it. Our priest was a little concerned at first because our CDEM (similar to FOCCUS) test showed very different ideas about money -- but that was mostly because I was still a student with large loans when we got married, so I was worried about money a lot while my DH wasn't. We talked about that area and a couple other areas of concern, and it turned out that it wasn't a big deal.

However... The test isn't the be all, end all, and regardless of what the test shows, your comments here suggest a much larger problem. If the Catholic Church doesn't mean much to either your fiance or to you, and if you dislike the Catholic Church that much and will actively prevent your fiance from teaching the Catholic faith to your children... then you shouldn't get married in the Church. This isn't blackmail, this is just reality. Standing up in a church and saying vows that you don't mean or believe in, is hypocrisy in my book. It's like committing perjury toward God, to use a legal analogy.

You can still get married. Get married somewhere that means something to you, in a ceremony that will be meaningful to you. Don't force yourself into a ceremony that you obviously don't care for. This wedding is yours and your fiance's, not your FILs'. (And to echo posters above -- 3 months before your wedding is not too late to find a ceremony site that would be meaningful to you.)

GL.

wifeandmommy0609 · March 2011

So far we have had 2 meetings with our Church. One was the Inital meeting and to fill out paperwork and the second one was to make sure we had everything we needed ( call the Marriage prep classes done and paper work turned in, talked about the readings and music ).

Our wedding is in 37 days Not sure we will have another meeting or not either.

HandBanana · March 2011

We didn't do FOCCUS and it was never recommended for us. Unless that is the questionare you do when you sign your contract?

We did do a PreCana weekend retreat that was amazing and I would recommend it for any couple no matter their faith. If you have any questions about it please ask becuase I just could go on forever and ever about how amazing it was.

As far as the getting married in the Catholic church and feeling blackmailed and etc. the church does require a questionare and contract to be signed about raising your child Catholic and the faith of each person. Our church actually requested copies of both of our baptismal and confirmation records. They request the baptismal record because back in the day it would indicate if you were already married.

Really think long and hard about starting your marriage in the Catholic church if you disagree with the fundamentals of it. Why get married in the Catholic church if you disagree with it? That is kind of how I feel about it.

aclove2lope · March 2011

pretty sure you can't get married in the Catholic Church if you don't want to raise your kids Catholic, and I do take offense to that, especially if "your fiance isn't particularly religious"

It irritates me when people get married in the church, say they are Catholic, and don't agree with Church Doctrine.

HandBanana · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_foccus-test-result-meeting-venting?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:856cfa46-6348-4ff8-ab64-2c60e0b55ec4Post:2ec31b58-5f92-4a27-ae7a-6d122b52d828">Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.</a>:
[QUOTE]pretty sure you can't get married in the Catholic Church if you don't want to raise your kids Catholic, and I do take offense to that, especially if "your fiance isn't particularly religious" It irritates me when people get married in the church, say they are Catholic, and don't agree with Church Doctrine.
Posted by aclove2lope[/QUOTE]

I really agree with this and second your frustration. Why have the foundation of your relationship in a religion you do not respect or agree with?

I think a lot of people just want pretty wedding pictures in the pretty Catholic Church.

lindsaynewbride10 · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_foccus-test-result-meeting-venting?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:856cfa46-6348-4ff8-ab64-2c60e0b55ec4Post:94d73f91-7254-46f1-8f0c-dcf3bedf4859">Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.</a>:
[QUOTE]I totally understand your concern Hannah and it's pretty hard to offend me. :) My FI is Catholic but not devout or religious. <strong>He doesn't go to church... Well, he does Now because the priest told us to attend, but once this is done, he won't. He hasn't for the past three years. I don't particuliarly care where, to be honest. That has never been one of my concerns.</strong> Plus, we have already sent out our invites to our families. If it was a year out, sure, let's reconsider how we want to do this. But I can't change churches now. FIY Librarydragon. Yes it is. "I don't agree with this." "Okay, I'll just make your spouse promise it and if you are a good wife, you'll help him keep his word because that's what good wives do." Yeah, that's not bullying you around is it.
Posted by ally1218[/QUOTE]

Ok, this might not concern YOU, but it definitely concerns me. Why are you getting married in a Catholic church if neither of you care to live a Catholic life? I just... I just have no words.

gwendolynclare · March 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_foccus-test-result-meeting-venting?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:856cfa46-6348-4ff8-ab64-2c60e0b55ec4Post:c499afc1-6d58-4687-a2ba-9557dc79ed38">Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting. : I really agree with this and second your frustration. Why have the foundation of your relationship in a religion you do not respect or agree with? I think a lot of people just want pretty wedding pictures in the pretty Catholic Church.
Posted by HandBanana[/QUOTE]

ditto HandBanana and aclove2lope!

Calypso1977 · March 2011

i dont think its as much the pretty pictures (since many churches of other denominations are very beautiful too) as it is pleasing parents or being "blackmailed" by parents if the couple wants money for thier wedding.

FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.

Re: FOCCUS Test Result Meeting.... And Venting.

Choose Another Board

Search Boards