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Etiquette

Gift Expectations...

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Re: Gift Expectations...


  • Viczaesar said:
    According to etiquette you should give a gift if you are able.  There is no etiquette requirement that I'm aware of for sending a card to express congratulations and well wishes.  I give those in person instead (though technically one ought not to express congratulations to the bride, only the groom, and say best wishes to the bride). 
    This is one of the places where the Post Institute -- very foolishly, as it was bound to create not only mercenary expectations on the part of brides, but cynical suspicions on the part of guests who suspect they were invited in the hopes that they would decline and send a gift -- breaks not only with traditional etiquette and standard protocol, but also with the advice of Mrs Post herself. The Post Institute has announced that guests are supposed to send a gift in response to an invitation. Traditional etiquette holds that giving a gift presumes a level of intimacy with the recipient and the giver should therefore use jugement, based on the relationship, about whether or not a gift is acceptable.

    Traditional etiquette does hold, though, that a note (not necessarily a card, since personal engraved stationery is in better taste) should be sent expressing congratulations and well-wishes. But it is not delivered at the wedding. You are there in person: sending a letter with what you can say yourself is just silly. The congratulatory note is supposed to be sent promptly as soon as you know the couple is engaged.

    Incidentally, true sticklers will also send a second note after the wedding or any other substantial entertainment, to their hostess which of course in some circumstances is the bride's mother or kinswoman rather than the bride herself, thanking her for her hospitality.

    Notes are required by traditional and standard etiquette. Gifts are required by the Post Institute.
    Just...no.

    image

  • ashleyepashleyep member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited November 2013
    @aefitz29 I don't get it. She basically agreed with Viczaesar, what's so "just ... no" about that?
    Anniversary
    NYCMercedes
  • PolarBearFitzPolarBearFitz member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer Name Dropper
    edited November 2013
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear. Post Institute advice is completely incorrect and outdated. Vic was not saying gifts are required at all.

    Just for further clarification: Viczaesar said you should give a gift if you are able. Not that it is required by etiquette.

    PrettyGirlLost
  • ashleyepashleyep member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited November 2013
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. I'm quite aware that Post etiquette is incorrect and outdated. I think you just missed the sarcasm in AroundTheBlock's post.

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    Anniversary
    PrettyGirlLost

  • ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    It was a statement and not sarcasm. The Post Institute does require gifts to be given in their version of etiquette rules.

    Please scroll up and read Viczaesar's response to Aroundtheblock if you need further understanding of what she was stating. They are not in agreement.

  • ViczaesarViczaesar Central Coast, CA member
    Ninth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    I never said it was silly.  I said that I don't do it because I don't feel comfortable if I can't afford to give a physical gift, and I disagreed that it was required.  I was talking about my preference, not judging what anyone else does. 



  • ashleyepashleyep member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited November 2013
    aefitz29 said:

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    It was a statement and not sarcasm. The Post Institute does require gifts to be given in their version of etiquette rules.

    Please scroll up and read Viczaesar's response to Aroundtheblock if you need further understanding of what she was stating. They are not in agreement.
    Actually, the Post Institute does say you have to give a gift, even if you're invited but not attending the wedding. I have the book, I can show you. It's clearly not good advice, and AroundTheBlock was clearly being sarcastic about it, hence why she said "Post Etiquette says" implying that it's not "real" etiquette. She called the Post Insitute a load of crocks in her first paragraph.  I think Viczeasar missed the sarcasm as well.


    Anniversary
  • Viczaesar said:

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    I never said it was silly.  I said that I don't do it because I don't feel comfortable if I can't afford to give a physical gift, and I disagreed that it was required.  I was talking about my preference, not judging what anyone else does. 
    Right sorry, bad wording on my part. Not "silly" but certainly not "necessary."
    Anniversary
  • PolarBearFitzPolarBearFitz member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer Name Dropper
    edited November 2013
    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    It was a statement and not sarcasm. The Post Institute does require gifts to be given in their version of etiquette rules.

    Please scroll up and read Viczaesar's response to Aroundtheblock if you need further understanding of what she was stating. They are not in agreement.
    Actually, the Post Institute does say you have to give a gift, even if you're not attending the wedding. I have the book, I can show you. It's clearly not good advice, and AroundTheBlock was clearly being sarcastic about it, hence why she said "Post Etiquette says" implying that it's not "real" etiquette.  I think Viczeasar missed the sarcasm as well.


    Are you not reading what I am saying properly? I just said they do require a gift...and hey @Aroundtheblock were you being sarcastic?

    Considering her other posts I have read on several other threads she is not often sarcastic seeming. I could be wrong obviously but it does not seem obviously sarcastic in any way.

  • aefitz29 said:
    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    It was a statement and not sarcasm. The Post Institute does require gifts to be given in their version of etiquette rules.

    Please scroll up and read Viczaesar's response to Aroundtheblock if you need further understanding of what she was stating. They are not in agreement.
    Actually, the Post Institute does say you have to give a gift, even if you're not attending the wedding. I have the book, I can show you. It's clearly not good advice, and AroundTheBlock was clearly being sarcastic about it, hence why she said "Post Etiquette says" implying that it's not "real" etiquette.  I think Viczeasar missed the sarcasm as well.


    Are you not reading what I am saying properly? I just said they do require a gift...and hey @Aroundtheblock were you being sarcastic?

    Considering her other posts I have read on several other threads she is not often sarcastic seeming. I could be wrong obviously but it does not seem obviously sarcastic in any way.
    No, I misread what you wrote.

    Look in AroundTheBlock's first paragraph she says that the Post Institute is wrong.

    "This is one of the places where the Post Institute -- very foolishly, as it was bound to create not only mercenary expectations on the part of brides, but cynical suspicions on the part of guests who suspect they were invited in the hopes that they would decline and send a gift -- breaks not only with traditional etiquette and standard protocol, but also with the advice of Mrs Post herself."

    Obviously gifts aren't required and AroundTheBlock never said they were. I don't even think she thinks that a note is required today, just that in old school traditional etiquette, it was. 
    Anniversary
    PrettyGirlLost
  • ViczaesarViczaesar Central Coast, CA member
    Ninth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    aefitz29 said:

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    It was a statement and not sarcasm. The Post Institute does require gifts to be given in their version of etiquette rules.

    Please scroll up and read Viczaesar's response to Aroundtheblock if you need further understanding of what she was stating. They are not in agreement.
    Thank you, @aefitz29

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:

    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - Gifts and notes are not required by any means...sorry should have made that more clear.
    "Gifts are required by the Post institute" is clearly sarcasm and agrees with you that gifts are not required. 

    And the rest of her post basically agrees with  Viczaesar that it's silly to send a note, or empty card, if you're there in person.
    It was a statement and not sarcasm. The Post Institute does require gifts to be given in their version of etiquette rules.

    Please scroll up and read Viczaesar's response to Aroundtheblock if you need further understanding of what she was stating. They are not in agreement.
    Actually, the Post Institute does say you have to give a gift, even if you're invited but not attending the wedding. I have the book, I can show you. It's clearly not good advice, and AroundTheBlock was clearly being sarcastic about it, hence why she said "Post Etiquette says" implying that it's not "real" etiquette. She called the Post Insitute a load of crocks in her first paragraph.  I think Viczeasar missed the sarcasm as well.


    I don't think there was sarcasm at all.  I think she assumed that my statement about how one ought to send a present if one can came from reading the Post Institute's advice.  She disagrees with the Post Institute, as do I.  However, her assumption about what I was saying and the source of my information was incorrect. 



  • @ashleyep - *sigh* misreading = not reading my statements properly

    I understand that she explained how foolish the Post's perspective is and she is merely reciting the information over again. She is not being sarcastic.

    The statement I was responding to was:

    'Notes are required by traditional and standard etiquette. Gifts are required by the Post Institute.'

    I am addressing the idea and not her as a person. That idea is just wrong and hence my 'Just...no' response. This is like having to explain a joke over and over again until it just isn't funny. Please stop trying to dissect what everyone else 'means' and worry about yourself.


  • aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - *sigh* misreading = not reading my statements properly

    I understand that she explained how foolish the Post's perspective is and she is merely reciting the information over again. She is not being sarcastic.

    The statement I was responding to was:

    'Notes are required by traditional and standard etiquette. Gifts are required by the Post Institute.'

    I am addressing the idea and not her as a person. That idea is just wrong and hence my 'Just...no' response. This is like having to explain a joke over and over again until it just isn't funny. Please stop trying to dissect what everyone else 'means' and worry about yourself.

    I just think too many people on this forum try too hard to be the first one to get in a quick, snarky, one word response to comments, especially hers, that aren't even all that out of line. "Traditional etiquette" probably did dictate that, but we don't follow every aspect of traditional etiquette anymore. Even Miss Manners, our hero, doesn't like response cards, but no one has a problem with those. No one gets up in arms if you were to say "traditional etiquette says that you respond to an invitation on your own stationary."

    Your joke. It was not funny.
    Anniversary
  • PolarBearFitzPolarBearFitz member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer Name Dropper
    edited November 2013
    ashleyep said:
    aefitz29 said:
    @ashleyep - *sigh* misreading = not reading my statements properly

    I understand that she explained how foolish the Post's perspective is and she is merely reciting the information over again. She is not being sarcastic.

    The statement I was responding to was:

    'Notes are required by traditional and standard etiquette. Gifts are required by the Post Institute.'

    I am addressing the idea and not her as a person. That idea is just wrong and hence my 'Just...no' response. This is like having to explain a joke over and over again until it just isn't funny. Please stop trying to dissect what everyone else 'means' and worry about yourself.

    I just think too many people on this forum try too hard to be the first one to get in a quick, snarky, one word response to comments, especially hers, that aren't even all that out of line. "Traditional etiquette" probably did dictate that, but we don't follow every aspect of traditional etiquette anymore. Even Miss Manners, our hero, doesn't like response cards, but no one has a problem with those. No one gets up in arms if you were to say "traditional etiquette says that you respond to an invitation on your own stationary."

    Your joke. It was not funny.

    I wasn't making a joke with my 'Just...no' response. The gif was actually to convey my tone.

    My bolded statement above was a simile to comment on how insufferable it is to explain what I meant over and over again to you.

    So let's try this one more time: I was responding to the idea from The Post and Traditional etiquette and not being 'snarky' or attacking Aroundtheblock at all because my response was not to her opinion at all. You clearly are not comprehending what I have written. You are trying to defend someone who is not being picked on at all.

    Addition: No one is 'up in arms.' I started this thread to make a very honest point to the brides who are crying over not receiving the gifts. This was a response to those that are upset over not getting something they 'wanted' or someone not giving enough money or anything at all. This is for the brides commenting 'They came and didn't bring me anything!!!!' I'm definitely not joking...

  • ashleyepashleyep member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper First Anniversary
    edited November 2013
    No, you're right. I completely missed the point of your comment to ATB and was arguing in circles. I apologize.

    I didn't mean that people are "up in arms" about this post. I meant that people get huffy about ATB's comments. I kind of like them, but I like reading about old school etiquette, even if it's not entirely relevant to the posts she comments on. 
    Anniversary
  • Thank you. *phew*





  • Are you not reading what I am saying properly? I just said they do require a gift...and hey @Aroundtheblock were you being sarcastic?
    Call it "dryly ironic". That's less overt than "sarcastic" and gives you an explanation for having missed it.
    ashleyepPrettyGirlLostaurorajanetteAPDSS22
  • According to Miss Manners, whom frankly I consider to be a better authority than you, wedding gifts should never be expected by the guest of honor but also, while not required, ought to be sent by the attendee if they are able.


    Judith Martin's writing is charming and her advice is nearly always very good. I recall reading a response from her to the direct question of whether gifts were required, in which she said no, but that if you found yourself not wanting to send a gift, that you were probably not close enough to the couple to be justified in accepting their invitation, either. That sounds a lot like using your judgment, based on your relationship.

    Martin is very careful to hedge any advice that a gift "ought" to be sent, because for all that it is addressed to the guests and not to the secretly expectant bride, the brides read it and it builds their expectations. And because it also builds one-upmanship among guests about the gifts that they "always" bring, and leads to the very bad advice that a guest should stay away if they cannot afford to pay substantial material homage.

    PrettyGirlLostcsuave

  • Are you not reading what I am saying properly? I just said they do require a gift...and hey @Aroundtheblock were you being sarcastic?
    Call it "dryly ironic". That's less overt than "sarcastic" and gives you an explanation for having missed it.
    @Aroundtheblock - Rofl. Thank you.

    @NYCBruin -

    image

    PrettyGirlLost
  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's member
    Eighth Anniversary 10000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers
    Here is an idea.  Since we cannot really convey our tone when writing posts, if something you are writing is meant to be sarcastic or ironic then why not put something like *sarcasm next to it to fully avoid confusion in the future.

    [Deleted User]grumbledore
  • ViczaesarViczaesar Central Coast, CA member
    Ninth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    According to Miss Manners, whom frankly I consider to be a better authority than you, wedding gifts should never be expected by the guest of honor but also, while not required, ought to be sent by the attendee if they are able.


    Judith Martin's writing is charming and her advice is nearly always very good. I recall reading a response from her to the direct question of whether gifts were required, in which she said no, but that if you found yourself not wanting to send a gift, that you were probably not close enough to the couple to be justified in accepting their invitation, either. That sounds a lot like using your judgment, based on your relationship.

    Martin is very careful to hedge any advice that a gift "ought" to be sent, because for all that it is addressed to the guests and not to the secretly expectant bride, the brides read it and it builds their expectations. And because it also builds one-upmanship among guests about the gifts that they "always" bring, and leads to the very bad advice that a guest should stay away if they cannot afford to pay substantial material homage.

    Yes, that's what I was referring to.  The idea is that gifts are not required but at the same time if you're close enough to and care enough about someone to attend their wedding you ought to want to give them a gift if you're able. 

    You're correct that traditionally one would write a personal note of congratulations/well wishes upon learning of an engagement, either through formal or informal means (announcement, STD, invitation, or word of mouth, e.g.), but I don't do that.  Of course, neither does anyone else I know, unless you count the Facebook "like" button!



    [Deleted User]
  • aefitz29 said:

    Might I also add:

    Gifts: don't list your damn registry on your invitations!!!!!!!

    I'm not sure this can be stressed enough. I don't think I have ever seen more than one wedding invitation that didn't include a registry card. We certainly would have had no idea this was a problem before checking out TK forums.
  • Viczaesar said:
    You're correct that traditionally one would write a personal note of congratulations/well wishes upon learning of an engagement, either through formal or informal means (announcement, STD, invitation, or word of mouth, e.g.), but I don't do that.  Of course, neither does anyone else I know, unless you count the Facebook "like" button!

    Viczaesar Just curious - you didn't get any congrats cards when you got engaged?

    I have a deep love for stationary - and am only 30! - and do sent old fashioned snail mail for birthdays, expressing sympathy, etc and was delighted to get some congrats cards after we broke the news. Since I'm very sentimental I kept most of them.

    Maybe it's my group but now I'm curious how many of you guys did or did not receive mailed cards for your engagement (or other good news)?
  • ViczaesarViczaesar Central Coast, CA member
    Ninth Anniversary 5000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    Viczaesar said:
    You're correct that traditionally one would write a personal note of congratulations/well wishes upon learning of an engagement, either through formal or informal means (announcement, STD, invitation, or word of mouth, e.g.), but I don't do that.  Of course, neither does anyone else I know, unless you count the Facebook "like" button!

    Viczaesar Just curious - you didn't get any congrats cards when you got engaged?

    I have a deep love for stationary - and am only 30! - and do sent old fashioned snail mail for birthdays, expressing sympathy, etc and was delighted to get some congrats cards after we broke the news. Since I'm very sentimental I kept most of them.

    Maybe it's my group but now I'm curious how many of you guys did or did not receive mailed cards for your engagement (or other good news)?
    I'm not engaged.



  • I did not receive any cards for my engagement. Just well wishes in person and over the phone from family members. I haven't known anyone who received a card for their engagement...

  • photokittyphotokitty where I want to be mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 5000 Comments 500 Love Its
    I recieved cards in the mail after we got engaged.
    :kiss: ~xoxo~ :kiss:

  • kitty8403kitty8403 member
    1000 Comments 250 Love Its First Answer Name Dropper
    edited November 2013


    Viczaesar said:



    According to etiquette you should give a gift if you are able.  There is no etiquette requirement that I'm aware of for sending a card to express congratulations and well wishes.  I give those in person instead (though technically one ought not to express congratulations to the bride, only the groom, and say best wishes to the bride). 

    This is one of the places where the Post Institute -- very foolishly, as it was bound to create not only mercenary expectations on the part of brides, but cynical suspicions on the part of guests who suspect they were invited in the hopes that they would decline and send a gift -- breaks not only with traditional etiquette and standard protocol, but also with the advice of Mrs Post herself. The Post Institute has announced that guests are supposed to send a gift in response to an invitation. Traditional etiquette holds that giving a gift presumes a level of intimacy with the recipient and the giver should therefore use jugement, based on the relationship, about whether or not a gift is acceptable.

    Traditional etiquette does hold, though, that a note (not necessarily a card, since personal engraved stationery is in better taste) should be sent expressing congratulations and well-wishes. But it is not delivered at the wedding. You are there in person: sending a letter with what you can say yourself is just silly. The congratulatory note is supposed to be sent promptly as soon as you know the couple is engaged.

    Incidentally, true sticklers will also send a second note after the wedding or any other substantial entertainment, to their hostess which of course in some circumstances is the bride's mother or kinswoman rather than the bride herself, thanking her for her hospitality.

    Notes are required by traditional and standard etiquette. Gifts are required by the Post Institute.




    ^Re sending gifts in response to all wedding invitations, that isn't just the Post Institute. It's standard practice in my circle. I send something no matter what, unless I know I am not the primary invitee (as in, the only reason I'm being asked is that I am someone else's daughter or SO). My mother does the same. I realize this is a controversial position but it is how I was raised snd a lot of others were brought up. I don't go, I still send something. That does not equate to expecting my guests to do the same thing, however. The OP's point is perfectly valid--brides need to stop expecting lavish generosity from every person they invite and throwing fits about it. It's simply not realistic.

    As for the rest of this--stationery vs cards, multiple notes--I have never before heard that engagement news requires written congratulatory statements of any kind. Certainly it is proper to thank your hostess if you're invited to the party, but I do not believe it is necessary to write every couple as soon as you hear they are engaged. You might not even be part of the intended guest list!

    Edit: quote boxes, and my first sentence didn't make any sense.

    PolarBearFitz
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