NWR: Arguing Sexism

pumpkinsandturkeys

So, there's a friend-of-a-friend on Facebook right now who's kind of arguing with me about sexism and I'm getting annoyed with him.

(Note: religion is involved here, too, and I certainly hope no one gets offended by anything I say)

Recently, an area university (which is a publicly-funded institution) had a student state that due to his religious beliefs, he would need an exemption granted from a project that would require him to work in a group with female students. The university went back and forth on it (to make a long story short) and finally decided to agree.

There is now debate over whether or not this is sexism. Personally, I firmly believe that it is. As the school is a public (and not a religious) institution and because his request was oppressive to a group defined solely by their sex, I disagree with allowing him to forgo the group project. There has been some debate over whether it would still have been sexist if they had allowed it right off the bat and no one ever found out about it, but I believe that that's still sexist, too -- just because the other students never would have known doesn't mean that their rights weren't infringed upon.

This guy has stated that he disagrees with the university allowing the concession, but has been presenting ideas and justifications in support of the decision in very long-winded arguments. He and I have gone back and forth about this a bit, and I'm of the opinion that despite him stating that he disagrees, his other statements undermine that and are supporting the oppression. I'm all for playing devil's advocate, but there comes a time when presenting favourable arguments wipes out your supposed disfavour. And if everyone said, "I disagree, but I get where they're coming from...", we would essentially be supporting the sexism by not condemning it.

Basically, I don't think that any one right or freedom (in this case, freedom of religious belief) should override any other right or freedom (ie: the right to sexual equality).

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

ETF spelling, as always.

afox007

I definitely have to agree with you that it is sexist. I used to work in college admissions and had a Middle Eastern potential student call in and after interviewing him told him I did not think he was an ideal candidate. He insisted on speaking with a man because "the secretary should not be making this decision". 

I transferred him to my manager who came back a few minutes later. He agreed with my decision and said the potential student had clarified that his culture dictated that women were inferior so he refused to accept me into a position of power over him. When my male manager disqualified him he accepted it no problem. 

climbingsingle

I agree with you 100%. 

MyNameIsNot

I agree with you that it is sexist.  In elementary school, I had a teacher that used to say "your rights end at your nose."  You have the right to believe that women are inferior if you like, but asking a publicly funded institution to give you special treatment because of that belief is not acceptable.  What if another student was a member of the KKK and refused to work in a group with non-white students?  

I also think this is a disservice to this particular student.  Presumably he wants to be able to use his degree for a career.  What company is going to let him avoid working on projects with female team members?  Part of studying for a degree is learning how to work in the business community.  

jdluvr06

I agree that it is sexist.

pumpkinsandturkeys

MyNameIsNot said:

I agree with you that it is sexist.  In elementary school, I had a teacher that used to say "your rights end at your nose."  You have the right to believe that women are inferior if you like, but asking a publicly funded institution to give you special treatment because of that belief is not acceptable.  What if another student was a member of the KKK and refused to work in a group with non-white students?  

I also think this is a disservice to this particular student.  Presumably he wants to be able to use his degree for a career.  What company is going to let him avoid working on projects with female team members?  Part of studying for a degree is learning how to work in the business community.  

This. That's exactly how I feel about it. You can't avoid interacting with women in the "real world", nor should you. Same with other social groups.

photokitty

I'm pretty sure I agree with you, but what was the project? Was is anatomy and they had to dissect a cadaver? I could see in that instance where religious beliefs might make it so someone wasn't comfortable being with the opposite sex. I know it's a reach and if it was just a book report or other normal group work there is no way they should have allowed the exception. However if it had anything to do with modesty, I'd be open to debate on the suggestion. KWIM?

pumpkinsandturkeys

photokitty said:

I'm pretty sure I agree with you, but what was the project? Was is anatomy and they had to dissect a cadaver? I could see in that instance where religious beliefs might make it so someone wasn't comfortable being with the opposite sex. I know it's a reach and if it was just a book report or other normal group work there is no way they should have allowed the exception. However if it had anything to do with modesty, I'd be open to debate on the suggestion. KWIM?

@photokitty Just plain ol' group work. His issue was that he said he couldn't sit at the same table as women.

ETA tag

pumpkinsandturkeys

Here's the news article summarizing it:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/09/york-university-appears-to-be-standing-by-choice-to-excuse-student-from-group-work-with-women-over-religious-beliefs/

HaileyDancingbear

I think that's sexist and I really hate that the person used their religion as an excuse, or let themselves be told that because of their religion, they have to look down on women.  I personally do not care what religion someone follows.  I think people can believe whatever they want and as a mortal human being, I have absolutely no right to judge.  However, I don't think using one's religion to justify one's own petty hatreds or belittle a group of people is even remotely ok.  Believe whatever you want, just don't be hateful about it.  

Even if it says something in his holy book, let's face it, nobody follows every word of their holy book perfectly.  I know the religion in question isn't christianity, but I'm going to use Leviticus as an example: Leviticus says that to eat shellfish or wear a fabric of two threads is abomination.  He also says it's wrong to be around a woman while she's on her period.  Obviously, plenty of christians eat lobster, wear poly-cotton blends, and talk to girls while they're on their period.  Every holy book has little things that get ignored.  So my line of thinking when it comes to issues like this, is that if you're going to kind of pick and choose what you follow and what you ignore, you might as well follow the positive, loving aspects of your religion, and ignore the hateful parts, because every religion has good in its message, and every religion has its ugly parts.  I think having a religion, no matter what that religion is, is a beautiful thing if it brings you happiness and inspires you to be a better person.  I think using religion to justify hate completely destroys the beauty of it.

That said, I do agree with the school not making him work in that group, ONLY because if I was one of the girls in that group, I wouldn't want to be stuck working with that sexist jerk, and if he wants to screw himself over by refusing to work with women forever (And good fucking luck getting a job where no women will ever be involved) then let him screw himself over.

photokitty

pumpkinsandturkeys said:

photokitty said:

I'm pretty sure I agree with you, but what was the project? Was is anatomy and they had to dissect a cadaver? I could see in that instance where religious beliefs might make it so someone wasn't comfortable being with the opposite sex. I know it's a reach and if it was just a book report or other normal group work there is no way they should have allowed the exception. However if it had anything to do with modesty, I'd be open to debate on the suggestion. KWIM?

@photokitty Just plain ol' group work. His issue was that he said he couldn't sit at the same table as women.

ETA tag

Waaaaaa what??? Yeah, totally sexist. Should not have been allowed! How horrid!

cruffino

I read the article. It's an online class at a 70% women student university. Really?

pumpkinsandturkeys

cruffino said:

I read the article. It's an online class at a 70% women student university. Really?

Yep -- York is mostly women, and focuses on social sciences. He rarely had to show up in person for this class, and heaven forbid you have to interact directly with women ONCE over the course of the class.

blabla89

pumpkinsandturkeys said:

cruffino said:

I read the article. It's an online class at a 70% women student university. Really?

Yep -- York is mostly women, and focuses on social sciences. He rarely had to show up in person for this class, and heaven forbid you have to interact directly with women ONCE over the course of the class.

This, and also what @MyNameIsNot said.

I get that the school doesn't want to force the student to do something if it's truly against his religious convictions, but I don't think it's right to allow him to "forgo" the project without consequence. If I were the professor, I would offer him the option to do it by himself and be graded to the same standards as the other groups.

chibiyui

That guy is a douchenozzle.

He's probably ashamed he passed through his mothers birth canal.

pumpkinsandturkeys

lalalaurita said:

pumpkinsandturkeys said:

cruffino said:

I read the article. It's an online class at a 70% women student university. Really?

Yep -- York is mostly women, and focuses on social sciences. He rarely had to show up in person for this class, and heaven forbid you have to interact directly with women ONCE over the course of the class.

This, and also what @MyNameIsNot said.

I get that the school doesn't want to force the student to do something if it's truly against his religious convictions, but I don't think it's right to allow him to "forgo" the project without consequence. If I were the professor, I would offer him the option to do it by himself and be graded to the same standards as the other groups.

I respectfully disagree that he should have been afforded the chance to do the project on his own. 

As much as I hated group projects in university, they do help prepare you for real-life situations in which you can't always be a lone wolf, and you occasionally have to work with people you don't like, don't get along with, who don't pull their own weight, etc.

I feel as though sometimes (NOT always), people use their religious beliefs to justify socially unacceptable or questionable actions and viewpoints. I'm not saying that this is what this student did; however, you do have to wonder what kind of a precedent it sets, and the broader implications of conceding to his request.

HisGirlFriday13

I would also argue it's sexism. If you want to believe women are inferior, that's your right. But if you want to attend a public university in a civilised, first-world country, you can leave your back-water prejudices at home. 

MyNameIsNot

pumpkinsandturkeys said:

lalalaurita said:

pumpkinsandturkeys said:

cruffino said:

I read the article. It's an online class at a 70% women student university. Really?

Yep -- York is mostly women, and focuses on social sciences. He rarely had to show up in person for this class, and heaven forbid you have to interact directly with women ONCE over the course of the class.

This, and also what @MyNameIsNot said.

I get that the school doesn't want to force the student to do something if it's truly against his religious convictions, but I don't think it's right to allow him to "forgo" the project without consequence. If I were the professor, I would offer him the option to do it by himself and be graded to the same standards as the other groups.

I respectfully disagree that he should have been afforded the chance to do the project on his own. 

As much as I hated group projects in university, they do help prepare you for real-life situations in which you can't always be a lone wolf, and you occasionally have to work with people you don't like, don't get along with, who don't pull their own weight, etc.

I feel as though sometimes (NOT always), people use their religious beliefs to justify socially unacceptable or questionable actions and viewpoints. I'm not saying that this is what this student did; however, you do have to wonder what kind of a precedent it sets, and the broader implications of conceding to his request.

This.  While I get that doing the group project individually would be a ton of work and "punishment" for refusing to work with a group, the purpose of assigning a group project is to teach students to work in a group, not just to divide up the work.  

No matter what industry you go into, you're going to end up having to work on things in a group.  There's always going to be someone who doesn't pull their weight, etc.  

JCbride2015

Ugh this is so ridiculous.  I also have Facebook friends who probably would argue this is okay at least to play devil's advocate.

I understand this happened in Canada, so the law might be somewhat different (although if anything, I think Canada has better laws on women's rights than the US).  But the university seems to fundamentally misunderstand the notion of religious freedom from a legal standpoint.  One can't just say, "My religion requires that I kill a puppy every week, so I need an exemption from animal cruelty laws," or "My religion states that women are property, so please excuse me from the 13th Amendment."  The government can't force you to practice (or not practice) any one religion, but religion is not a get out of jail free card from your duties to society.

ETA: word correction

hellohkb

I agree that this is sexist. He should have gone to another university, perhaps one where the students are mostly men, if he felt this strongly about the issue.

HisGirlFriday13

JCBride2014 said:

Ugh this is so ridiculous.  I also have Facebook friends who probably would argue this is okay at least to play devil's advocate.

I understand this happened in Canada, so the law might be somewhat different (although if anything, I think Canada has better laws on women's rights than the US).  But the university seems to fundamentally understand the notion of religious freedom from a legal standpoint.  One can't just say, "My religion requires that I kill a puppy every week, so I need an exemption from animal cruelty laws," or "My religion states that women are property, so please excuse me from the 13th Amendment."  The government can't force you to practice (or not practice) any one religion, but religion is not a get out of jail free card from your duties to society.

THIS. SO.MUCH.THIS. ONE MILLION TIMES THIS!!!

Seriously, this is my biggest pet peeve. In the U.S., the First Amendment means Congress can't suddenly up and say, "Oh, all Americans must be Baptists," or whatever. It does NOT mean that you can do things in the name of your "religion" that infringe on other people's rights.

(The First Amendment is also my pet peeve when it comes to freedom of speech, but that's a whole separate issue).

Vivandiere8

If anything he should have been made to do a different assignment, or the same one alone. Exempt from it is ridiculous, but I do see where it loses some of the impact of the group study project.

The sad thing is, he might not even have a religious objection. He might just want to get out of the project. Who goes to a school that is 70% women, online or not, when you supposedly have such strong objections to them? I had a co-worker once who tried to have herself exempt from helping to put up Christmas decorations at our work based on religious reasons (saying she was a wiccan), but at another time she told me she was excited to celebrate Christmas with her new baby and get the tree, and lights, and gifts, and all. She didn't even call it "The Holidays", she called it Christmas. She just didn't want to put up the decorations at work (and these were secular decorations of course, not religious by any means)

JCbride2015

HisGirlFriday13 said:

JCBride2014 said:

Ugh this is so ridiculous.  I also have Facebook friends who probably would argue this is okay at least to play devil's advocate.

I understand this happened in Canada, so the law might be somewhat different (although if anything, I think Canada has better laws on women's rights than the US).  But the university seems to fundamentally understand the notion of religious freedom from a legal standpoint.  One can't just say, "My religion requires that I kill a puppy every week, so I need an exemption from animal cruelty laws," or "My religion states that women are property, so please excuse me from the 13th Amendment."  The government can't force you to practice (or not practice) any one religion, but religion is not a get out of jail free card from your duties to society.

THIS. SO.MUCH.THIS. ONE MILLION TIMES THIS!!!

Seriously, this is my biggest pet peeve. In the U.S., the First Amendment means Congress can't suddenly up and say, "Oh, all Americans must be Baptists," or whatever. It does NOT mean that you can do things in the name of your "religion" that infringe on other people's rights.

(The First Amendment is also my pet peeve when it comes to freedom of speech, but that's a whole separate issue).

This too!!!

pumpkinsandturkeys

Vivandiere8 said:

If anything he should have been made to do a different assignment, or the same one alone. Exempt from it is ridiculous, but I do see where it loses some of the impact of the group study project.

The sad thing is, he might not even have a religious objection. He might just want to get out of the project. Who goes to a school that is 70% women, online or not, when you supposedly have such strong objections to them? I had a co-worker once who tried to have herself exempt from helping to put up Christmas decorations at our work based on religious reasons (saying she was a wiccan), but at another time she told me she was excited to celebrate Christmas with her new baby and get the tree, and lights, and gifts, and all. She didn't even call it "The Holidays", she called it Christmas. She just didn't want to put up the decorations at work (and these were secular decorations of course, not religious by any means)

The other thing is, it was just this particular course that was online -- York doesn't offer full online degree programs (as far as I know -- very few Canadian universities do). So that means that unless he is only taking this course (and perhaps some other online courses), he would have to occasionally sit in class with women, have female profs and TAs, and generally interact with women on campus for his other degree requirements.

@JCBride2014 We have great human rights and equality laws in Canada, particularly for women, Aboriginals, and Francophones -- I think that's why it surprises me so much. We don't really see issues concerning women's access to specialty health care, education, or a lot of overtly sexist actions. We even have a National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women (to commemorate the Ecole polytechnique massacre, aka the Montreal Massacre). I know that the university isn't a federal institution, but it's still surprising that they would somewhat call into question our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which, unfortunately, doesn't apply to universities).

doeydo

Sexist.

mrsbanany

I about as much as a feminist as you will come across but I have mixed feelings on this.  My university is EXTREMELY diverse, one of the most diverse campuses in the US actually so I have heard the view points of many ethnicities, races, religions, etc.  I recently had a conversation with a Muslim classmate who was talking about the separation of men and women in mosques in Paris, there was a law that prohibited it.  It is how the religion works so wether you agree with it or not, we have to respect their religion.  Also, many Muslim women do not find this sexist (not sure if you are talking about Islam, just using it as an example based off of that conversation I had with my classmate.) However, since it is a publicly funded institution I would have to say it is sexist.  While I find myself to be very tolerant of other beliefs, I find the sexism to be difficult to deal with. But the point is, you make a choice when it comes to what school you attend and if he has that big of a problem with it, he should have gone somewhere else. 

 I once got into a car accident on campus (a male Middle Eastern student t-boned me and seriously destroyed the passenger side of my car) and he refused to give any of his insurance information to a woman, we had to call campus police and he only spoke with them.  When we were figuring things out after the fact he would only speak to my father since, as I am unmarried, he is the head of my household.  While I found it beyond infuriating, I also found myself conflicted because that is how his culture  worked and I am really in no place to degrade other cultures, despite how different they are from mine. 

pumpkinsandturkeys

@amandaj424 I agree that in other situations, concessions need to be made for religious beliefs, whether we agree with those beliefs or not.

However -- as you stated -- it is a publicly funded institution, and a rather large one, at that. It is not a mosque or temple or church, and in this situation, conceding to his request would provide him with a distinct advantage over the rest of the students -- he would either be exempt altogether, or he would be afforded the luxury of only having to rely on himself to complete the assignment, rather than having to navigate the difficulties often associated with group work.

I just wonder how they would feel if a white supremacist stated that, according to their beliefs, they couldn't work with anyone of colour. They could argue that their beliefs form a system of faith and should be respected as such, despite the fact that this is a very ethnically-diverse school (on top of having a predominantly- female student body). It's my guess that the school wouldn't insist that the professor uphold the student's request in this situation.

RWS2011

This is beyond absurd and definitely sexist.  If this man wants to never interact with a woman, go to an all male college.  They still exist somewhere, I am sure.

I went to a very diverse college as well (community college for part of my undergrad).  I worked on projects with students who are Muslim (article asserting it might have been Islam or Orthodox Judaism) and worked side by side in the learning center as a tutor with people from all over the world.  At one of our year end parties, I had a great discussion with a fellow tutor.  I wanted to give him a hug or at least a handshake, but wanted to respect his values.  He politely declined and we proceeded to have a 30 minute conversation about his faith with regards to interactions between women and men.  Certain boundaries, like touching, he extended to all social interactions.  In a traditional setting, he would interact with women from his faith differently, because that is the cultural norm.  However, in the states, he accepted that his interactions with those outside his religion would be a little different.

The world will not bend to your will, values, beliefs, etc.