Have you guys heard of this?!

LabLove86

So - I work in healthcare - and I had a patient today who has had numerous conversations with and gone ring shopping with her boyfriend - but they are NEY. However - they have already booked their date/venue!

I think its kinda funny - but not really a bad idea. She knew what venue she wanted, and they want NYE for their wedding so .. . .  it makes perfect sense to do it as early as possible. I just have never heard of this before. 

But good for her for being willing to be unconventional if it is what they want. 

phira

I mean ... you can be engaged without a ring, so I don't really get why they're not engaged but actively planning. That's really weird. I consider booking vendors to be actively planning.

bethsmiles

It sounds like they are engaged. They just don't have a ring yet. You do not need a ring to be engaged.

LabLove86

Yeah - I know you don't need the ring to be engaged - but she specifically said they were not yet, and referred to him as her boyfriend and not fiance. (Although I have a friend who refers to her husband as her boyfriend sometimes so . . . . .)

Anyway - I just hadn't heard of anyone doing this before.

bride2b71614

The term engaged (at least in a relationship context) is used for couples who have the intent to get married. Maybe she doesn't like labeling the relationship? I wouldn't look too much into it. 

That being said, I've come across this type of situation before. In my opinion if they have a date set, and if they have a venue, and they have the intent to get married, they don't need a label. Its only strange if only one partner is actively planning, while the other isn't. I hope for her sake, her SO is aware of their wedding...

Dignity100

I sometimes forget and call my fiance boyfriend - I called him boyfriend for 6+ years and it's hard to switch out that 'label' at times. 

Maybe she doesn't want to call him 'fiance' until they've spoken with families and such.  Who knows?

Blackbird230

I'm engaged without a ring, but in public to strangers especially I'll refer to FI as boyfriend because I don't like getting the "ooooh can I see your ring?" question. It's just annoying. However FI and I are having a long engagement and are nowhere near booking a venue and such.

loves2shop4shoes

A poster from LONG ago did this.  Her name was Cate.  She got flamed to high heaven for it.

Personally, I don't think it's THAT crazy.  I just think you're basically engaged without a ring…regardless if you want to call yourselves engaged or not.

Pepperally

I say, if both people agree with booking it and agree that's when they will get married, then it doesn't really matter much...no one ever said you had to be engaged to get married. 

Snickrsgirl

I kinda get it. I mean my boyfriend and I live together, talk about marriage sometimes in the next few years, he even got my finger measured.  We aren't engaged yet but i kinda feel that since we bout humor the "marriage mindset," especially for me, then when the time comes when he feels ready to propose, he knows i will be too. does that make any sense or just in my mind? lol 

phira

Snickrsgirl said:

I kinda get it. I mean my boyfriend and I live together, talk about marriage sometimes in the next few years, he even got my finger measured.  We aren't engaged yet but i kinda feel that since we bout humor the "marriage mindset," especially for me, then when the time comes when he feels ready to propose, he knows i will be too. does that make any sense or just in my mind? lol 

Honestly, I feel like this is a really good mindset to be in. This is how things were with my partner, although we didn't have a proposal or anything when we started our engagement. I honestly think it's really wonderful when both partners know how the other person feels, and when neither one has to wonder, "Do they even want to marry me?"

00kim00

I'm in this situation. We have a date and a deposit on a venue but we are not yet engaged. We've essentially been on a marriage track since day 1-- it was made clear by each of us that we were both looking for marriage and if either of us thought this wasn't leading that way that we'd call it off-- so it's always been on the table but there was never a decision moment.

Also, we each have several requirements we wanted to meet before getting engaged, including him asking my dad, going to pre-engagement counseling (for those of you unfamiliar, basically like pre-marriage counseling), and completing a pre-engagement discussion book. So engagement isn't going to happen until those things are done. However, due to some uncontrollable circumstances, we have a very small selection of acceptable dates limited to mid- to late-May. So either we get married this May, or wait a year until next May. We're both already in our mid-30s and want to have kids, and neither of us really wants to delay the wedding another whole year for other reasons, too. His family lives in another country and needs 3-6 months to plan travel. Though they come out every year, they need to know a date so they can plan their annual trip to coincide with the wedding. And in my boyfriend's random clicking around the internet, he found a venue (technically a vacation rental/resort) that includes lodging for 30 people and is cheaper than anything else we'd seen. So yeah, with at least 30 people on both of our sides coming from out of state/country, and an amazing deal at a place we love, and an ideal date on a holiday weekend that's only 4 months away, we decided it was pragmatic to put a deposit down.

It seems that people don't think it's weird to have an idea of the date you want to get married, or even to know where you want to get married (come on, how many of us Pinterested wedding stuff before being engaged??) it's when someone puts down a deposit on a venue that all of a sudden makes people think you must be engaged. But I'm the one who gets to define my own relationship. We are not engaged until we say we're engaged. And we are not engaged until we have an explicit discussion and agreement to become engaged, which hasn't happened yet. In fact, we have explicitly said that we don't want to be engaged until we meet 3 requirements that we haven't yet met.

So we have a venue and a date, but we're not engaged yet. My view is this: paying a few hundred dollars for a "venue"/vacation rental doesn't mean I'm engaged any more than buying a cap and gown means I have a college degree; there are some critical pieces that need to happen first (agreement to become engaged for engagement or completing the academic requirements for a degree). It may not be typical, but that doesn't mean it isn't true and valid.

phira

@00kim00 I'm all for not having other people define relationships. But I do have to ask--what is the difference (to you) between 1) being engaged to someone, and 2) actively planning a wedding to someone?

For what it's worth, I do think there's a major distinction between people who start actively planning a wedding without their partner's knowledge or desire, and two people who are planning a wedding together and don't consider themselves engaged. But as someone who was not proposed to, I do wonder what it means, then, to get engaged after the process of creating the wedding event starts.

Swazzle

00kim00 said:

I'm in this situation. We have a date and a deposit on a venue but we are not yet engaged. We've essentially been on a marriage track since day 1-- it was made clear by each of us that we were both looking for marriage and if either of us thought this wasn't leading that way that we'd call it off-- so it's always been on the table but there was never a decision moment.

Also, we each have several requirements we wanted to meet before getting engaged, including him asking my dad, going to pre-engagement counseling (for those of you unfamiliar, basically like pre-marriage counseling), and completing a pre-engagement discussion book. So engagement isn't going to happen until those things are done. However, due to some uncontrollable circumstances, we have a very small selection of acceptable dates limited to mid- to late-May. So either we get married this May, or wait a year until next May. We're both already in our mid-30s and want to have kids, and neither of us really wants to delay the wedding another whole year for other reasons, too. His family lives in another country and needs 3-6 months to plan travel. Though they come out every year, they need to know a date so they can plan their annual trip to coincide with the wedding. And in my boyfriend's random clicking around the internet, he found a venue (technically a vacation rental/resort) that includes lodging for 30 people and is cheaper than anything else we'd seen. So yeah, with at least 30 people on both of our sides coming from out of state/country, and an amazing deal at a place we love, and an ideal date on a holiday weekend that's only 4 months away, we decided it was pragmatic to put a deposit down.

It seems that people don't think it's weird to have an idea of the date you want to get married, or even to know where you want to get married (come on, how many of us Pinterested wedding stuff before being engaged??) it's when someone puts down a deposit on a venue that all of a sudden makes people think you must be engaged. But I'm the one who gets to define my own relationship. We are not engaged until we say we're engaged. And we are not engaged until we have an explicit discussion and agreement to become engaged, which hasn't happened yet. In fact, we have explicitly said that we don't want to be engaged until we meet 3 requirements that we haven't yet met.

So we have a venue and a date, but we're not engaged yet. My view is this: paying a few hundred dollars for a "venue"/vacation rental doesn't mean I'm engaged any more than buying a cap and gown means I have a college degree; there are some critical pieces that need to happen first (agreement to become engaged for engagement or completing the academic requirements for a degree). It may not be typical, but that doesn't mean it isn't true and valid.

This makes absolutely no sense. 

An engagement is an agreement to get married. If you already "know" that you're going to get married (since you've obviously discussed it, have picked a date, and booked a venue) then why do you not consider yourself engaged? You say that you need to have an "explicit discussion" first but then why on Earth would you begin planning a wedding?

And no, I never "Pinterested wedding stuff before being engaged."

ETA: You do realize that after a wedding comes a marriage, yes? If you haven't agreed to be a part of that marriage then you shouldn't be planning a wedding.

Dignity100

@00kim00 - I actually had a different wedding in mind before FI and I started planning.  I was thinking a local rustic farm fall wedding.  When FI and I actually decided to start really planning together we both decided neither one of us like being the center of attention - my mom has social anxiety issues and his parents would have a guest list of like 80+ people for just their side of the family.  After talking about it, we decided that we wanted a destination wedding with immediate family only.  FI said he still wanted a wedding in the US because he didn't want to worry about getting passports and figuring out rules of another country, his mom doesn't fly or cruise.  Since I wanted a fall wedding and his parents take a 1-2 week vacation in Florida, we decided to do a Disney wedding the same week they were there (I got my fall wedding as a bonus!).

So - yeah, we didn't actively start planning until we were engaged and ready to start pinpointing things down.  We considered ourselves engaged after we told our families - the ring was on order at that time. 

You could re-establish your goals as 'goals before we wed' instead of 'goals before we're engaged'.

Swazzle

And you bought a wedding dress? Jesus. This just gets better and better. 

This whole thread (CLICK)  is just... 

GoldenPenguin

I'm with @swazzle. I think there is a HUGE difference between having a conversation with your SO about "We want to get married someday" and being engaged. 

I have had the conversation with my BF. We are going to get married, we both know that. But we in no way consider ourselves engaged. We know what kind of wedding we'd prefer (small, intimate), but I can't even imagine looking for, or BOOKING a venue. Because you do those things when you're engaged. Because the engagement is the time you take to plan a wedding. Before that, you're just dating, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

I thought crazy season was over. Does it last till Valentine's Day? My head might explode before that.

00kim00

@00kim00 I'm all for not having other people define relationships. But I do have to ask--what is the difference (to you) between 1) being engaged to someone, and 2) actively planning a wedding to someone?

The difference is the commitment. Getting engaged is making a promise to someone that you will marry them. To me, marriage is forever, divorce is a non option. So once you're married, there is no longer a choice to split, period. Engaged, to me, is a level of commitment like what I see the trend in marriages: it's a promise between two people, meant to be forever (the main difference being engagement is a promise between the two of us, marriage a covenant between the two of us and God). Splitting after engagement is possible but a really, really big deal. Putting a few hundred dollars towards a vacation rental (the venue) that can be used as a vacation rental when family comes to visit anyway even if we decide not to get engaged or to delay a wedding, and yes, even spending a whopping $37 on a wedding dress, is nowhere near the same level of commitment. It's a difference between committing a not unreasonable amount of money and committing the rest of my life

Swazzle

00kim00 said:

@00kim00 I'm all for not having other people define relationships. But I do have to ask--what is the difference (to you) between 1) being engaged to someone, and 2) actively planning a wedding to someone?

The difference is the commitment. Getting engaged is making a promise to someone that you will marry them. To me, marriage is forever, divorce is a non option. So once you're married, there is no longer a choice to split, period. Engaged, to me, is a level of commitment like what I see the trend in marriages: it's a promise between two people, meant to be forever (the main difference being engagement is a promise between the two of us, marriage a covenant between the two of us and God). Splitting after engagement is possible but a really, really big deal. Putting a few hundred dollars towards a vacation rental (the venue) that can be used as a vacation rental when family comes to visit anyway even if we decide not to get engaged or to delay a wedding, and yes, even spending a whopping $37 on a wedding dress, is nowhere near the same level of commitment. It's a difference between committing a not unreasonable amount of money and committing the rest of my life

So you're basically just crossing your fingers that it works out between now and May? And if it doesn't it's ok because the dress was "a whopping $37" and you have a place to go on vacation?

GoldenPenguin

00kim00 said:

@00kim00 I'm all for not having other people define relationships. But I do have to ask--what is the difference (to you) between 1) being engaged to someone, and 2) actively planning a wedding to someone?

The difference is the commitment. Getting engaged is making a promise to someone that you will marry them. To me, marriage is forever, divorce is a non option. So once you're married, there is no longer a choice to split, period. Engaged, to me, is a level of commitment like what I see the trend in marriages: it's a promise between two people, meant to be forever (the main difference being engagement is a promise between the two of us, marriage a covenant between the two of us and God). Splitting after engagement is possible but a really, really big deal. Putting a few hundred dollars towards a vacation rental (the venue) that can be used as a vacation rental when family comes to visit anyway even if we decide not to get engaged or to delay a wedding, and yes, even spending a whopping $37 on a wedding dress, is nowhere near the same level of commitment. It's a difference between committing a not unreasonable amount of money and committing the rest of my life

My someday non-religious marriage ceremony will be just as valid. Marriage is NOT a religious institution. 

00kim00

I'm not "crossing my fingers" but we are willing to reconsider if, for example, something huge comes up in counseling that we need to resolve before moving forward. The wedding, and whatever is spent on it, isn't what's most important to us, so we can be flexible on that. We're really focused right now on building a foundation for a strong marriage. Locking in a place that will allow the people most important to us to be there assuming things go as planned really allows us to not stress about that. That way, we can focus on our relationship, even after getting engaged, rather than finding a place that will allow our families to afford to join us with only a couple months to find that needle in a haystack

00kim00

@BriSox81: I'm not making any judgements on your marriage. Someone asked what engagement is to me. MY marriage is a religious institution, and therefore that influences my decisions and definitions. I don't care whether or not your marriage is religious. The point is that I get to define my own relationship based on my beliefs and values (which I think is at least part of the point you were making)

00kim00

@twodimes, nope. If we don't meet our goals before May, we're not getting married in May. We can put it off a year if we're not ready yet ETA: or, if necessary, cancel if counseling etc. reveal major unworkable issues

buddysmom80

@00kim00 I have two examples about how people can change before getting married and after getting married so it's something to think about.

My one friend, she married her HS sweetheart on a whim and he was on-board to have kids. After a few years, they talked again and he said he changed his mind AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED, so they ended up getting a divorce.

My other friend, had what she calls a "three-person marriage" the third person being God. They went to pre-cana, are practicing Catholics, priest calls the house, the whole she-bang. Before they were married they agreed to have kids. After they got married and her H realized how hard it is to be an adult, they're at a cross-roads now, and they won't get a divorce because of religion.

So just because you put God way up there doesn't mean that your BF/FI/Whatever will change his mind or that YOU will change your mind.

GoldenPenguin

00kim00 said:

@twodimes, nope. If we don't meet our goals before May, we're not getting married in May. We can put it off a year if we're not ready yet ETA: or, if necessary, cancel if counseling etc. reveal major unworkable issues

Soooo... then why not just wait? If you CAN wait, what's the rush? 

00kim00

@buddysmom80 I know people change, even on major issues and even with God. But I fully intend to be in that group that won't get a divorce regardless, I recognize this is a huge decision and a lifetime commitment, which is why we're taking our time to fully consider and seek counsel from others before committing to marriage/engagement (committing money to a venue just doesn't have the same weight, IMO)

Swazzle

buddysmom80

00kim00 said:

@buddysmom80 I know people change, even on major issues and even with God. But I fully intend to be in that group that won't get a divorce regardless, I recognize this is a huge decision and a lifetime commitment, which is why we're taking our time to fully consider and seek counsel from others before committing to marriage/engagement (committing money to a venue just doesn't have the same weight, IMO)

So, if it doesn't work out, you want to be miserable in a marriage?

Yeah, I totally want that.

Sometimes you got to put God or whoever on the back-burner and do what your head wants.

00kim00

@twodines we're not inviting people before we're engaged, so there's no uninviting needed. His parents visit once every year and he and his sister help them plan when based on their schedules. They'd be here anyway. All we have is a venue and a cheap dress. We're not planning a whole wedding until we're actually engaged. @BriSox81 Why wait if we're ready? If we decide to wait, we'd have to wait a whole year for several unchangable reasons. Once we make the decision, neither of us see a reason to have a long engagement.

bethsmiles

If you're ready why don't you just get engaged. That's what I'm not understanding here. You said engagement is this whole other level of commitment, but you don't consider yourselves engaged (so I assume you don't think you're ready for that level of commitment) but yet you are planning a wedding because somehow you are ready for the level of commitment a marriage requires...do you see how you aren't making sense?

Personally, I don't see an engagement as another level of commitment. I'm 100% committed to BF right now, there's no other level.

labro

buddysmom80 said:

@00kim00 I have two examples about how people can change before getting married and after getting married so it's something to think about.

My one friend, she married her HS sweetheart on a whim and he was on-board to have kids. After a few years, they talked again and he said he changed his mind AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED, so they ended up getting a divorce.

My other friend, had what she calls a "three-person marriage" the third person being God. They went to pre-cana, are practicing Catholics, priest calls the house, the whole she-bang. Before they were married they agreed to have kids. After they got married and her H realized how hard it is to be an adult, they're at a cross-roads now, and they won't get a divorce because of religion.

So just because you put God way up there doesn't mean that your BF/FI/Whatever will change his mind or that YOU will change your mind.

I also don't get how talking about these things (like kids, religion, divorce) in "pre-engagement" counseling is ANY different than discussing these in pre-marital counseling either. What's the point of doing them separately? I mean, obviously you should discuss this prior to getting engaged but why the whole process of pre-engagement counseling? I am so confused.