"You should be spending far more time planning for your husband than for your career"

Cookie Pusher

I was reading the Daily Mail for my gossip fix earlier and came across this article (CLICK). Basically, the author is advising women to focus less on their future careers and more on finding husbands. She had previously written a piece for the Princeton newspaper telling female students that they need to find a husband on campus before they graduate because men outside of their little Ivy League bubble are not good enough for them. (CLICK) In a follow-up published by the Wall Street Journal, she continues in the same vein, basically saying that the chances of finding a worthy husband diminish once they enter the real world. (CLICK)

While I understand her feeling that you should find someone you are compatible with on an intellectual level, I find her attitude totally condescending. She flat out says that men will marry dumb women as long as they are pretty. And it's pretty absurd that she thinks college (and grad school) are the only places you can meet a compatible husband. But... is she right? If you want to get married and have a family, should you focus on that before building a career? Or, as bloggers have said, is she full of crap?

cookie0803

I haven't finished reading her articles, but I think it's crap to say that women in their 30's can't compete with women in their 20's.

FiancB

Sounds to me like another "writer" that only gets attention by writing the most controversial and idiotic crap that she can muster. 

To a point, I think striving for a Big Important Career is a little overrated in our society... but that applies to men just as much if not more. And while a lot of women meet their husbands in college, I am so so glad that I didn't marry my ex fiance that I met there. 

WinstonsGirl

I didn't read, but I'll disagree since DH went to a different Uni than I did.    I met him out of Uni and we're both well educated and established in our careers.  I actually think it's helped us as we both did well on our own (jobs, housing, savings) and then combined up everything to be even better.  My brother got married at a younger age, before they were established in their careers and have more issues to deal with at the moment due to starting a family on less income.  SIL often comments that it's not fair we're so much further along then they are (even though we're almost 10-15 years older than she is).  Not saying it's a reason to not get married at younger ages, but being older and career focused has put us in a more stable position than others.  

Cookie Pusher

cookie0803 said:

I haven't finished reading her articles, but I think it's crap to say that women in their 30's can't compete with women in their 20's.

I feel the same way! Even though FI have been together since our 20s, we have both changed so much since then. We've luckily changed in ways that are compatible with each other... but what if we didn't? I feel like most people in their early 20s barely know who they are or what they want nowadays, but they become more comfortable and confident in who they are in their 30s. Plus, I know I am so much more comfortable with my body! I'm positive that, had I married my previous FI, we'd have had a rather acrimonious divorce by now!

JCbride2015

WHAT?

Okay, so I read the articles.  She has a few pearls of wisdom: plan for your personal happiness as well as you plan for professional happiness.  It will frustrate you to be with a man who isn't as smart as you.  College is a good place to look for a man with whom you have a lot in common.

But I take issue with a few of her main premises: men are only interested in younger women.  Men are attracted to, in fact might seek out, women who aren't as smart as they are.  Men will be emasculated by a wife who earns more.

This topic really hits home for me.  I'm about to graduate from an Ivy League law school and will be radically out-earning Fi by this fall.  Fi went to a state school (as you know, Cookie!) and earns a nice middle-income salary at a pretty normal job.  He doesn't have the same conventionally impressive credentials I do, but you bet your ass he's just as smart as I am.  He doesn't need an Ivy League degree to be informed about history, or politics, or art.  Every day he challenges me intellectually.  When he's bored at work, he systematically goes through Wikipedia articles on various houses of British royalty.  This is a guy who loves knowledge.  No pedigree required.

But then again, I realize how lucky we were to fall for each other in high school and stay in love for this long.  Having our relationship stable meant that I wasn't distracted by dating drama, and Fi supported me through various higher education and resume-building stuff.  I don't know that I could have gotten to my current position if I didn't have Fi's support and encouragement.  

Overall though, this author just seems like she's trying to grab headlines and some quick royalty income.  She totally underestimates men and it's really condescending.

chibiyui

Oh, it was THAT lady again. I glanced over a Jezebel article on her Wall Street Journal followup, didn't realize she was Princeton lady.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't think college is the end all be all of finding a life partner. I did think that when I was in college for a bit though. But I think a lot of her advice has to do with......how do I say this without sounding like a bitch............ The people in that ladies social circle are all assholes. There is certainly a certain type of man that is more interested in marrying younger, attractive women over someone his age maybe not as pretty  but more compatible as a "status" symbol. We call those men douchebags. If you're from a social circle that values money, status and looks over everything else, then this is the kinda advice that you'll eat up. If you're not a sociopath, then while there might be some truth in people seek out the "best" they can get, you realize that there's more to successful relationships then a ring by spring.

That said, I think if marriage and esp. children are in your life plan (and this goes for gents or ladies. I have one guy friend, whose sadly, kind of a douchebag. he's 31, only wants to date women under 25 because older then that they are "too jaded" and also because he wants to have kids and women over 30 have too high of risks in his mind. He thought he had like, 10 years to make this happen. I gleefully told him that studies show mens sperm starts to deteriorate at 35 and birth defects go up. He's much less obnoxious about womens ages now.)
you shouldn't completely ignore it, because life will pass you by. And it also depends on your career field. My sister waited until she was done with her doctorate and had a job before she had a kid, but she didn't wait until she had tenure. Other fields you might almost "need" to get farther in to have any chance moving up the ladder after having kids. I kinda realize that in sales, if I don't get promoted to manager before I have children, I probably never will advance if/when I go back to the workforce after being a SAHM for a few years (current plan, subject to change)

tl;dr, Whatever grains of truth where in that article was drowned out by clutching shit pearls.

jdluvr06

I feel bad for her sons. It doesn't seem like she thinks highly of men.

cookie0803

Cookie Pusher said:

cookie0803 said:

I haven't finished reading her articles, but I think it's crap to say that women in their 30's can't compete with women in their 20's.

I feel the same way! Even though FI have been together since our 20s, we have both changed so much since then. We've luckily changed in ways that are compatible with each other... but what if we didn't? I feel like most people in their early 20s barely know who they are or what they want nowadays, but they become more comfortable and confident in who they are in their 30s. Plus, I know I am so much more comfortable with my body! I'm positive that, had I married my previous FI, we'd have had a rather acrimonious divorce by now!

I'm in my 20's and married the guy I met the first day of college. Literally moving into the building. Many of our friends aren't even close to marriage and probably will not be until their 30's or 40's, if ever for some. I know for a fact, though, that many men would MUCH prefer a relationship with a woman 30+ who is stable financially and emotionally to a woman in her early 20's who is still figuring things out. Different things are for different people at different times.
I also love that she thinks she's divorced because her ex went to a college that she does not consider respectable. Not at all because she's judgy and likely a huge PITA.

Cookie Pusher

 @JCBride2014 - FI has a far more "valuable" degree than I do (Engineering vs. English/Psychology). His income will, almost definitely, always be significantly higher than mine. However, he tells EVERYONE that he truly feels he is marrying "up". While he has a lot of scientific and technical knowledge (in addition to in-depth knowledge about his hobbies/interests), I bring the social sciences/people skills, literature/art/film/music/pop culture, and cultural history knowledge to the table (along with my Domestic Goddess status). We have a lot of things we are both well-versed in - baseball being one of the big ones - but we are constantly challenging each other intellectually despite our different spheres of expertise.

He also credits me with pushing him to continually trying to better himself professionally (I was his biggest champion when he started his own business and now have been a big cheerleader in his quest to get his PE license), and he's encouraged me to take advantage of my company's tuition reimbursement program to get my MBA or JD. I can't imagine marrying someone who only cared about where my degree came from or how much money I make!

@chibiyui - I agree, some of people in those Ivy League circles are douchebags. Not all, but I've known quite a few. A lot of those people were also had family money, and going to an Ivy League school was just "normal". Anyone who didn't obviously wasn't good enough to be in their social circle. Again, not all, but some. Makes me kind really glad I wasn't raised that way!

But @jdluvr06, they have their pick of girls to marry because Princeton men are the cream of the crop! They might have the personalities of rocks, but girls will want them because they're smart and rich!

Cookie Pusher

cookie0803 said:

I'm in my 20's and married the guy I met the first day of college. Literally moving into the building. Many of our friends aren't even close to marriage and probably will not be until their 30's or 40's, if ever for some. I know for a fact, though, that many men would MUCH prefer a relationship with a woman 30+ who is stable financially and emotionally to a woman in her early 20's who is still figuring things out. Different things are for different people at different times.
I also love that she thinks she's divorced because her ex went to a college that she does not consider respectable. Not at all because she's judgy and likely a huge PITA.

My ex, who is uber successful and smart, was incredibly impressed when I got accepted to my college (and invited to the honors program) even though it's a state school. It's very highly regarded academically (and is one of the oldest colleges in the country), and it's very competitive for out-of-state students to get accepted. How stupid is it to be so judgy about where your SO went to school?!

firebabe6519

Why does it matter where FI and / or SOs went to school? Not everyone in college is smart, and not all smart people go to college. I've seen plenty of students / people who are considered dumb by college standards because they are bad test takers or because they are dyslexic and reading is hard for them, but yet they excel in the field.

Sure I met FI in college, but I wasn't looking for a husband and sure as hell wasn't putting my career on hold. I went on and finished 3 B.S. degrees. FI made it a year in school and left for academy because it better suited his needs.

JCbride2015

Cookie Pusher said:

cookie0803 said:

I'm in my 20's and married the guy I met the first day of college. Literally moving into the building. Many of our friends aren't even close to marriage and probably will not be until their 30's or 40's, if ever for some. I know for a fact, though, that many men would MUCH prefer a relationship with a woman 30+ who is stable financially and emotionally to a woman in her early 20's who is still figuring things out. Different things are for different people at different times.
I also love that she thinks she's divorced because her ex went to a college that she does not consider respectable. Not at all because she's judgy and likely a huge PITA.

My ex, who is uber successful and smart, was incredibly impressed when I got accepted to my college (and invited to the honors program) even though it's a state school. It's very highly regarded academically (and is one of the oldest colleges in the country), and it's very competitive for out-of-state students to get accepted. How stupid is it to be so judgy about where your SO went to school?!

I can vouch for Cookie Pusher!  This state school is extremely respected around here.  People get impressed when they hear Fi went there (same school as CP).

But even if not... seriously, who cares?  It's what you do with your degree that matters so much more.  I have several friends who graduated 5+ years ago from well-respected private schools, who have no definite career path and are still living at home, or their parents are paying their bills.  Give me a guy with no degree who works hard, over a graduate who sits on Mom's couch, any day of the week.

cruffino

Hmmm...I just think it's sad that she equates happiness with external status symbols. The true measure of any man or woman is in the quality of his/her character and heart. But I'm a sap like that.

Jells2dot0

I married the man I met in college. That turned out to be a total bust! I'm really glad I decided to focus on my career throughout that phase in my life. My career led me to my current DH, who I met at work. I think having an equal level of intelligence has helped our relationship (we pretty much do the same thing for a living, though he has more degrees and certifications than I do) but only because it's a compatible match. I think that it's possible to have the same levels of intelligence but not be compatible with views, morals, values, beliefs, etc. I think my ex-H was intelligent, but we were just so incompatible on so many levels. 

NYCBruin

Ugh this woman is exhausting.  Although, her ability to insult men and women at the same time is somewhat amusing.

And I agree with whoever said that the fact that she blames her failed marriage on her ex-husbands lack of a "fancy" degree highlights how completely delusional she is.

LizM61409

Not sure what she really means by focus on finding a husband. I was single from ages 21-25. Yes, I was in med school for a lot of that. But I frequently hung out with co-ed groups of friends, went out to bars, etc etc. I went on a number of first dates with guys where either I ended up not liking him and/or he never called me about a second date. 

So this lady thinks I was supposed to suck it up and spend forever with a guy I wasn't into? Or by sheer force, somehow command the guys I had a crush on to give it a go? I'm not sure what else she could mean by implying I should have been "focusing on finding a husband". It's not like you can say "okay I'm ready to get married now" and all of a sudden meet the right guy. I didn't meet the right guy until age 25. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Now, why we're getting married at 30 instead of 28 or 29 has EVERYTHING to do with my career, but that doesn't change the fact that I met him after college.

Also, I agree with this lady that I probably would be frustrated being with a man who isn't as smart as me, but totally agree with PPs that smartness/intellectual compatibility is NOT defined by the degrees you have. FI has a bachelor's degree. That's all you need in his field (engineering). A master's would be a waste of time and money. Do I give a flying f*** that I have more degrees than him? Of course not!

pumpkinsandturkeys

Silly me -- I TOTALLY missed out on getting my MRS degree in university. My bad.

Canada obviously doesn't have Ivy League schools, but we have some very prestigious schools and I did attend one of them. While there, I dated a guy whose family literally had hundreds of millions of dollars and played my part in living that life for a while. I focused on fitting into his world and balancing school with being a society girl and 'having it all.'

It was exhausting. And boring. Sure, he was intelligent, rich, and ambitious, and we met at one of the best schools in the country (which seems to be a major factor for happiness in this woman's eyes). Newsflash, lady: it wasn't the be-all, end-all.

I met FI a few years later and I'm a million times happier. He's your typical upper-middle class guy who went to a local 3-year college and is pretty much an average man in his 30s. We couldn't have met in school even if we had gone to the same schools because he's 12 years older than me.

That being said, we're perfect for each other. I'm so glad that I didn't stick with everything I thought I 'should' be looking for in a man, because if I had, I would be so unhappy right now. I have a great life that I stumbled upon by happenstance, and not because I planned it out the way I planned my education and career (which also took a totally different trajectory than anticipated).

She needs to loosen up and lose the judgmental view of what is and is not the 'right' way to find love and get married (if that's even what you want to do).

Edited: spelling.

rajahmd

I'm about 3 months shy of my MD. DH has two associate degrees, both from a technical school. But he's still crazy intelligent. He can do things with a computer I can't even imagine. I'm glad I didn't find him at college. Undergrad was about finding myself, not a spouse. I wasn't even expecting to find a spouse during med school. I joined match.com to find a date for a wedding and ended up with a wedding of my own.

This writer drives me batty. She's part of why I can't stand the Ivy League system.

PrettyGirlLost

firebabe6519 said:

Why does it matter where FI and / or SOs went to school? Not everyone in college is smart, and not all smart people go to college. I've seen plenty of students / people who are considered dumb by college standards because they are bad test takers or because they are dyslexic and reading is hard for them, but yet they excel in the field. Sure I met FI in college, but I wasn't looking for a husband and sure as hell wasn't putting my career on hold. I went on and finished 3 B.S. degrees. FI made it a year in school and left for academy because it better suited his needs.

You have to understand that this Ivy League mentality that the author is displaying has nothing to do with valuing actual intelligence or the actual education you are receiving, but that in her world it's all about the pedigree.

A Vanderbilt would never be caught dead going to a state school, KWIM?  It's all about social networking- who you meet and who you marry, and the name behind the brand so to speak.

Maggie0829

I didn't read the articles because I just can't cope with that much dumb.  But H didn't go to college. He did go to a trade school for one year for HVAC.  I will say that book smart I have H beat, but H has amazing common sense which I think gets you a lot farther then just being book smart.  I know people who are just book smart but when it comes to the real world they have no idea how to adjust.

I also make more then H.  It does not make him feel emasculated in the least.  In fact he jokes that I am his "sugar momma".  He of course is not serious, but we both help pay the bills. Typically one person will make more then the other so what does it matter if it is the woman or the man?  If both are contributing to the house and joint savings then who makes more is a moot point.

Also, if H and I weren't together I know for a fact that he wouldn't go for the dumb, ditsy blonde.  He can't stand those type of girls who act stupid because they think it is cute.  He likes being with a girl that has her shit together and can fend for herself rather then relying on him 100% of the time.

But I do agree with PP that the push on not only women but men to strive for this big important career is way overrated.  Some people look down on H and I because we aren't striving for being big wigs in our careers.  H is an HVAC installer who hopes to be a salesman one day in his company because it is less physical.  I hope to be a SAHDM (stay at home dog mom) and just take care of the household.  The fact that neither one of us really wants big careers does not make us dumb or unambitious, it just shows that our priorities are more about doing things outside of work (which is really just an avenue to pay the bills) rather then making our name in the corporate world.

Cookie Pusher

Maggie0829 said:

I didn't read the articles because I just can't cope with that much dumb.  But H didn't go to college. He did go to a trade school for one year for HVAC.  I will say that book smart I have H beat, but H has amazing common sense which I think gets you a lot farther then just being book smart.  I know people who are just book smart but when it comes to the real world they have no idea how to adjust.

I also make more then H.  It does not make him feel emasculated in the least.  In fact he jokes that I am his "sugar momma".  He of course is not serious, but we both help pay the bills. Typically one person will make more then the other so what does it matter if it is the woman or the man?  If both are contributing to the house and joint savings then who makes more is a moot point.

Also, if H and I weren't together I know for a fact that he wouldn't go for the dumb, ditsy blonde.  He can't stand those type of girls who act stupid because they think it is cute.  He likes being with a girl that has her shit together and can fend for herself rather then relying on him 100% of the time.

But I do agree with PP that the push on not only women but men to strive for this big important career is way overrated.  Some people look down on H and I because we aren't striving for being big wigs in our careers.  H is an HVAC installer who hopes to be a salesman one day in his company because it is less physical.  I hope to be a SAHDM (stay at home dog mom) and just take care of the household.  The fact that neither one of us really wants big careers does not make us dumb or unambitious, it just shows that our priorities are more about doing things outside of work (which is really just an avenue to pay the bills) rather then making our name in the corporate world.

Much like you, Maggie, FI and I have very little desire to have big corporate jobs. While we are both in line to eventually head our departments at work in the next decade or so, neither of us is chomping at the bit or gunning for those positions. We go to work, do our jobs well, and go home - we don't bring drama, we try to improve for ourselves, and we'd never ever step on anyone else to get ahead. My FSIL is all about the money (always talking about how she had her new husband each make over 6 figures, how they just dropped half a mil on a house, etc.) and can't understand how we're happy being just middle class. We just... are! 

We both have multiple jobs, not because we're after more money but because those other jobs fulfill parts of our lives that our corporate jobs don't (he's a sports official, I make and sell jewelry, and we both distribute automotive products - because we LOVE those things). Would we love to make more money? Sure, but not at the expense of living well-rounded, happiness-giving lives.

And you're right. FSIL is very book smart, but she wouldn't survive a day if she was left to fend for herself without her massive bank account to bail her out. She has ZERO common sense.

ETA: If that is how you present yourself to me, that is how I will view you. Seriously, I can't even. If you're going to keep putting me/us down for our "lack", it's reasonable to think that your focus is on money and material possessions.

ETA2: Seriously, how long have you been stalking my posts? I'm actually a little bit disturbed because my username and the things I've posted are not easily identifiable as me unless you were purposefully looking for me. I could be any number of people in the faceless mass of posters that frequent this forum unless you specifically went through my posts to piece together my identity.