Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA! *edited*

ReturnOfKuus

Well, I mean, it DOES change who that person is in a way, because you get to understand better who and why your SO is.  After all, that had to be a big and important journey in a way that being cisgendered just plain isn't.  But it'd be a good change, like "I feel so much closer to you now that I know that" rather than "ewww, I'm inexplicably weirded out by the idea of genitals changing."

This all assumes, of course, that the transgendered person would be indistinguishable from a cisgendered person unless you were told.  If not, surely you'd have noticed something long before it got serious.

thejucheidea

For a lot of people, it's incredibly hard to start that conversation. My trans friend put off telling me for an eternity because he thought that I would shun him despite the fact that we'd been best friends since freshman year of high school. I can't imagine seeing yourself as female, knowing in your heart that you're female, transitioning with hormones/surgery, falling in love with a man, being in a heterosexual relationship with a man... but not being sure how to bring up your birth sex, fearing how he'll respond, and that you'll possibly lose the one you love because you were born the wrong sex for your gender.

How much would that hurt, knowing that someone might leave you based off of a shitty hand dealt to you by fate? How would you start the conversation, based on the life sequence above? When do you know when to have the conversation? First date? After a couple of months? Before discussing marriage? Before physical intimacy? When is this time for this, the time when you're close enough to cleave your soul for this person?

I just can't imagine. I'm so incredibly lucky to be cisgender, and I'm so incredibly aware of it because of seeing what Casey has gone through for years.

VarunaTT

Juche said it better than I could've.

VarunaTT

Also, if this person is living their reality, which is as a woman...why would she ever be forced to explain she was physically a man at one point?  What does it really have to do with anything?  I'll bend on the kids part, b/c that's a big deal, but beyond knowing and caring about their experience, why is this a big deal for having sex?  

ReturnOfKuus

I really wish, too, that we could get to a place where we (as a society) could separate sex and gender entirely, so that no one would ever have to feel like they were born the "wrong sex".  I don't know if that would help, if we just had a general cultural acceptance that women's bodies come with any possible kind of genitals, as do men's.  I don't know enough about the transgender experience to know if that would help, if there were no Katie Couric shenanigans any more and it were just generally accepted that "this female body includes a penis, that female body includes a vagina, etc."

Wzz

but, we don't know from the OP how long they were dating. the fact that he knew her sister Amy says to me that things were serious enought to meet one another's families. if being trans* anything doesn't matter to one person, well then that is that person's opinion. if being bald matters to a woman, she isn't vilified for having a personal prefernece in someone she is going to date. it just happens that baldness (stupid analogy, i know) happens to be very obvious so she can make the decision before even accepting a date.

 

and you know what, if previous genitals shouldn't matter, then bring it up ASAP. i mean, if it shouldn't matter, then put the info out there to a potential partner. you can't say someone should be fine with it if they aren't given this information.

VarunaTT

OP says 3 months.

ReturnOfKuus

I am calling a huge hearty bullshit on this being a dating preference like anything else. 

Wzz

3 months is a long enough time to be in a relationship and expect this to come up at some point. from the partner, and not a 3rd party.

 

well, to me this would be need to know information. i'll admit it. it doesn't mean anything beyond that, but it is for me to decide how i feel about it. everything that happened after the OP and rhonda broke up was squicky.

VarunaTT

Placing this level of important on you "knowing" their "status" is exactly why people don't tell.  B/c it immediately objectifies them into the "other" and that's not what they want to be.

mrsconn23

Prudie's response for those interested:

Dear Trying,
So much for sisterly solidarity. Yes this is a tale of bad judgment, but if Rhonda erred by omission, Amy’s sin was one of commission. She collected a dossier on Rhonda and presented it to you, meddling in her adult sister’s private life. You are stuck on the fact that you feel misled by Rhonda, so let’s examine that. There are no hard and fast rules about what one is obligated to tell a potential sexual partner, beyond the necessity of alerting them to one’s communicable disease status. You were slowly getting to know Rhonda, and I think two people looking for a serious, intimate relationship are obligated to divulge facts about themselves in a timely way that a reasonable person would feel deceived not knowing. For example, revealing that one had been married previously, or has children, or can’t have biological children, or has a significant medical condition. I think being transgender falls in this obligation-to-disclose category. I know that what to tell and when is an issue of debate in the LGBT community, so for perspective I spoke to Jennifer Finney Boylan, author ofStuck in the Middle with You, a memoir of her transition from being a father to a mother. She agrees that where intimate relationships are concerned honesty in general is best, but when to reveal that one is transgender is a choice made by that individual. A generation ago, she says, transgender people were told by their doctors to erase their pasts and live a stealth life, which caused a lot of anguish and meant people traded one secret for another. Today, she says, some trans people who have had reassignment surgery assert they simply had a birth defect that was corrected, and therefore their past is nobody’s business. Boylan does point out,however, that in the age of the Internet trying to keep the fact of a gender change hidden can become a terrible, and hopeless, burden.

But above all, Boylan noted the violation committed when Amy decided to out Rhonda, a revelation that was not hers to make. I hope you can understand how Amy’s act cleaved her family and shattered her relationship with her sister. Now that you and Amy are about to have your in-laws’ first grandchild, you’re asking for my help to undermine any chance this family might find some way forward. It’s you, however, who has to examine whether the presence of Rhonda makes you so uncomfortable that you would prefer to demonize your in-laws and sever them from your child’s life. It is you who has become the toxic influence. And as Boylan points out, now that you and Amy are about to become parents, think about how you would react if your own child turned out to be transgender, which might help you better understand all your in-laws. 

—Prudie

ReturnOfKuus

Prudie was way nicer to this asshole than I would be, that's for sure.

PirateBarbie

I think I get where NOLA and Wzz are coming form - in no way excusing any of what has going down, I think this is something that should have been discussed prior to being intimate. 

I'm not going to sleep with someone if i'm not in a serious/committed relationship with them. If i'm going to sleep with someone, I want to know about their past experiences, STD history/status, discuss birth control, and discuss what happens if birth control fails.  I've always been like this. I

I also assume that sex (oral/vaginal at least) with a trans man/woman who has had genital surgery is going to be different than it would with someone who was born with a penis/vagina. (scars/scar tissue from surgery, parts work a bit differently, lack of natural lubrication, etc.) I'd want to be prepared for this so that my partner was comfortable.

I can get feeling deceived if you were in a long term/committed relationship with someone and they were not willing to share this part of their past with you - but it still doesn't excuse Amy's big reveal, or his subsequent relationship with Amy. 

NOLABridesmaid

V, I understand why it is hard to tell. I also understand the issue of violence that many Trans people have to face, and how this would be extremely scary.

 

HOWEVER, that still doesn't negate the fact for me that this is a need to know conversation. There are a lot of communities that it's hard to date and disclose certain information.

I'm sure it's hard to tell someone you have HIV.

I'm sure it's hard to tell someone that you have schizophrenia.

I'm sure it's hard to tell someone that you went to prison for 20 years for murder, but now you're a changed person.

 

There are a lot of difficult conversations to have but you still have to have them. I can't put myself in the shoes of a Trans person and how hard dating must be. But heck, isn't dating easy for anybody. I do know that there are also many men that wouldn't have any problems with them being Trans.

VarunaTT

The difference is situations above have an effect on the other person's life.

HIV, communicable...schizophrenia, possibly violent, will need medical attention and care, prison, will affect employment opportunities.

You know the genital history, outside of the STD issue, changes nothing for your life.

PirateBarbie

VarunaTT said:

You know the genital history, outside of the STD issue, changes nothing for your life.

ability to have biological children with that person

VarunaTT

I have mentioned procreation before, I apologize for forgetting it now.

Doesn't change the post.

VarunaTT

And realistically, if you don't want children or would be okay marrying an infertile woman, then does this still need to come up?  Do you have to share WHY you're infertile?

NOLABridesmaid

That is where we differ. Take away the the kid issue, and there would be some men where it would still have an effect on them. Just because you don't understand their way of thinking doesn't mean that some men couldn't or wouldn't choose to have a relationship with a woman that wasn't born a woman.

I also don't understand how this is in some way being intolerant. No one ever used that word, but it's the tone that is coming off.

VarunaTT

Actually NOLA, where we're differing is this:

You think there are some men who would choose to have a relationship with a transwoman if they knew and had the choice once the transwoman told them and that the tranwoman should tell them.

I don't think transgenders are under obligation to tell anyone they're trans* if they don't want to, so that the other person get to/has to then make a choice.  If the trans* would like to share they can.  I do think if it is a transwoman who still has her penis, she should tell the potential partner, b/c that's potentially a dealbreaker.

Now yes if you're talking marriage, the children issue should be discussed.  If you're talking sex, STD status should be discussed.  Neither of these actually require outing as trans though.  

I don't care that there are people who would be uncomfortable with that, actually.  It's human and I get that.  But I don't think you have a right to knowing.  And the OP WAS transphobic, b/c "it was about her deception".  She isn't living a deception, she IS a woman.

PirateBarbie

VarunaTT said:

And realistically, if you don't want children or would be okay marrying an infertile woman, then does this still need to come up?  Do you have to share WHY you're infertile?

to me, that would be a logical part of this ^^^ conversation. 

most women wouldn't know they were infertile unless they:

1) had already tried to have kids/gone through fertility testing/ treatments

2) had a medical procedure (like a hysterectomy or cancer treatments) that would leave them infertile / had a diagnosed medical condition that could cause fertility issues (like PCOS or endometriosis)

3) were born a man

if my partner told me she knew she was infertile, my first question would be "why? / how do you know that?"

ReturnOfKuus

It says a lot about why this need to know business is fuckery that being trans is compared to having HIV, severe mental illness, and being a murderer.

NOLABridesmaid

But, I would think that a transsexual person would have to assume that some hetro men would not be open to dating a woman that wasn't born a women. They might not agree, but it happens.

I would think through experience you would know if a man is working on the assumption that you are a biological female or not. If you pursue the relationship under that assumption as a transsexual person why would you not be surprised that he might have a problem with it. So, if possible violence or bad feelings might be on the table wouldn't I only date men that I know are more than willing to date me.

In the long run wouldn't it be easier on me as person after a few bad experiences.

 

 

 

NOLABridesmaid

Kuus, it was only an example about tough conversations to have, not that transsexual people are compared to having HIV or killing people.

 

I will say that this has made for a good debate though.

ReturnOfKuus

The choice of what constitutes an equally tough conversation says a lot, inadvertently, about how being transgendered is regarded,

NOLABridesmaid

Ok. I'm the lone wolf.

Kuus, Then why have we been debating this all morning. It must be a subject that is complex. Thus, it would be a tough conversation to have.

ReturnOfKuus

It is complex, yes.  But that on some level, people feel that it's a bad thing, a level of dealbreaker in line with having murdered someone, or having a deadly and contagious disease.  That's a huge problem, and a HUGE clue as to why transgendered people aren't too keen on telling people they don't know well and trust deeply.

NOLABridesmaid

But, you're assuming that a man might not want to date a transgendered  female because it's BAD. Maybe it's just not for him, but he might not think that it's bad.

 People have tons of dealbreakers that wouldn't be YOUR dealbreaker. It doesn't mean that their dealbreaker is wrong.

 

 

 

ReturnOfKuus

Well, then, let's explore what those reasons that aren't bad but make this not for him are, then.  What are they, exactly?  We've covered the reproduction angle.  What else?

There is a lot of bigotry hidden inside "personal preference", which is why it can't go unexamined.

NOLABridesmaid

Ok.

Maybe he wants a biological female that is only coming from a biologically females perspective. Heck, I don't even know what that means, but a female that has never had the level of male hormones that determine that you're a male. I know females have male hormones too. You know what I'm saying..

 

But, I'm sure spending a few years growing up as a male had to affect your present day to some extent, even if in your mind your considered yourself a female. Your body considered you a male, thus that would make your experience different than females that were born female.

 

Plus, every transgendered female doesn't have the surgery, so is it out of the realm of possibility to think that a guy might not sign up for that.

 

I'm getting tired, I don't know what I'm saying.