Budget Culture Clash

PrettyGirlLost

lebeers said:

phira said:

How kosher are we talking here, by the way? Obviously, some people are more all out about keeping kosher than other people, but couldn't people have a vegetarian option? Or is it more like ... they won't attend if any of the food served isn't kosher?

For the more Orthodox members of his extended family, i.e. grandma and grandpa, very kosher. A non-kosher caterer's vegetarian option wouldn't cut it because the kitchen and food needs to be prepared in a very particular (and evidently very expensive) way. If the vegetarian food was cooked on a surface that has had meat and dairy on it in the past it's not okay, among other reasons. We are even encountering issues with the booze that venues want to serve--Captain Morgan's apparently has spices that are not considered kosher by some people, which was practically a deal-breaker for the groomsmen! Most of the cordials have to be cleared out.
And yes, they would not be able to attend if all the food was not prepared in a strict kosher fashion. They don't want to have separate meals brought in. Not that I blame them, because they have gone to events in the past where they have been segregated to a different area and given cold saran-wrapped meals in fabulous airline food fashion. Talk about bad etiquette.

grumbledore said:

This really sucks, I'm sorry you are in this position.  Your FI has to be the one to stand up to his parents.  $10K isn't a lot when you need to feet over 200 people, especially when the food needs to meet some very specific and arduous requirements.

He has to tell them that you just can't do this the way they want him to.

If they insist on the huge guest list, they either have to pay for it, or they have to accept that the reception might be a simple cake&punch affair rather than a big mealtime reception.

If it were me in this situation, I'd be declining the $10K and planning the wedding I could afford for the number of people I wanted to host and tell them to just deal with it.

He's always had a bit of an issue sticking up to his mom. He has told her that we just don't have the resources for this wedding--you're right that 10k does not go very far, particularly in our very high cost of living area. But he hasn't really gotten through and I feel uncomfortable (and unproductive) pushing the issue personally.
I have brought up the possibilities of less food--cake and punch, a modest dairy brunch, a dessert table--and his family didn't love the idea. They feel it is poor etiquette not to offer your guests a full meal. But all of us need to find ways to compromise for this to work and maybe that is a better way to do so. Our wedding won't be as grand as his cousins' wedding and that has to be okay with everyone.
I'm afraid that there is this underlying notion of spending a lot on the wedding to "win" the inheritance and then pay off our debt with that money. It has been suggested that that was what the other family members did. We do not feel good about that at all if that is the assumption.
In any case, it's hard for me to plan the wedding we want and tell people to deal with it because these relationships are delicate. To be honest I am still not certain they are even okay with us getting married. At this point he says "screw this and screw the money, all I care about is marrying you and celebrating with the people that love and accept us," but having a wedding that his family wouldn't show up for would probably not be a happy wedding day for him.
My family is very patient and understanding, but the fact they have felt the need to shave their list down to 9 guests to compensate may result in my side harboring at lot of resentment at the end of the day also.

Ok, after reading this, I hate to say it but. . . were I you, I would not marry him.

If he can't handle setting and maintaining financial boundaries etc. with his mother involving a wedding, then he will never be able to handle setting and maintaining boundaries with her over the things that really matter in life. 

He will not support you if you disagree with his parents on how to raise your kids, etc.  You will have to do everything their way.  It doesn't sound like either of you will have a voice, nor does it sound like his parents care if you do.  As grown adults, that is not the way to have a family or a relationship, IMO.  I would not tolerate that much interference from anyone.

You said you were most excited about your families coming together- they aren't.  It seems based on your posts that you are going to have to totally assimilate and adopt your FI's family, culture, and religion at the expense of your own.

Are you truly OK with that?

STARMOON44

Reject their money and their demands. Don't discuss the wedding with them at all. Plan the wedding you want and send them an invite.

CrazyCatLady3

98 people * 130 pp for glatt kosher catering + 20% service charge + 8% sales tax (estimated) = $16,268 JUST FOR CATERING, JUST FOR THEIR GUESTS.  This does not include any other guests (whose meals also must be more expensive b/c they must be glatt per your FI's family's insistence), gratuities, music, decor, etc. etc.  Their $10k is not going to cut it.  Please show them the calculations.

As for your other questions, it is perfectly polite to hire childcare but you can't force the guests to use it if they don't want to.  Invitation reciprocity is not required per etiquette rules, but as you said, not reciprocating when the wedding is going to be huge is liable to cause some hurt feelings.

bananasplit472001

That is definitely a very tricky situation.  My FI family is jewish and keeps kosher (which I believe is different from glatt kosher) and I am catholic.  We have had a few snags during the first several months of planning a cultural wedding.  One of them being the guest list and having kosher meals.  I handled it in the beginning and they persisted until I said this is the way it is and if you don't like it your welcome to not attend.  First I would get your FI on your side and have him understand how ridiculous his parents are being.  Secondly, culture aside it is rude to even suggest that someone host a party in a certain way.  Your FIL is crossing a major etiquette line there that clearly clashes with his culture.  Tell him listen we can't afford it and if thats not ok with you you can pay for.  He can't blame "culture" on his rude behavior and you shouldn't have to go into debt to stroke his ego.  The way I see it you have 2 options:

1. Telling his family like it is and stick with your original plan regardless of the 'consequences" your FIL is threatening.

2. Elope

I would under no circumstances try to fit his needs just for the sake of culture and not having family drama.  Also what about YOUR families traditions and culture.  Make sure your voice is heard too.  If they don't want to come to a happy medium either they pay for all their ridiculous demands or you do what you want.

ladyamanuet

Stuck in the damn box.... anyway, at first I was going to say that I think @prettygirllost was perhaps overreacting with "giving up your family for his" thing but then I remembered you said this:

lebeers said:

We had to sneak out of Passover this year to have dinner with my family this week, but my mom replaced our typical Easter ham with a Kosher for Passover steak because she's basically the most thoughtful human being ever.


You shouldn't have to SNEAK out of anything! My FH's family is Jewish and we did the Seder on the traditional night - the first night of Passover - which was 6 days before Easter.  Did you spend EVERY DAY of Passover with FI's family? Would they really have been upset that you were splitting time on a holiday with BOTH families?  If so, this WILL be an issue moving forward.  What happens when Chanukah and Christmas overlap? If you and FI cannot set boundaries NOW then you never will be able to, and FI's family will use their control and guilt to slowly tear you away from your family.  It sounds like you love this man, and he loves you, and like he is willing to stand up for that love but he doesn't know how.  If that is the case, I say you have him tell his parents "this is the budget, this is the MAX amount of guests (including SOs and children) you can invite.  If you don't like it, we will elope and there will be no post-marriage celebration party either."

Edited to try and get out of box.  But nope!

PrettyGirlLost

ladyamanuet said:

Stuck in the damn box.... anyway, at first I was going to say that I think @prettygirllost was perhaps overreacting with "giving up your family for his" thing but then I remembered you said this:

lebeers said:

We had to sneak out of Passover this year to have dinner with my family this week, but my mom replaced our typical Easter ham with a Kosher for Passover steak because she's basically the most thoughtful human being ever.


You shouldn't have to SNEAK out of anything! My FH's family is Jewish and we did the Seder on the traditional night - the first night of Passover - which was 6 days before Easter.  Did you spend EVERY DAY of Passover with FI's family? Would they really have been upset that you were splitting time on a holiday with BOTH families?  If so, this WILL be an issue moving forward.  What happens when Chanukah and Christmas overlap? If you and FI cannot set boundaries NOW then you never will be able to, and FI's family will use their control and guilt to slowly tear you away from your family.  It sounds like you love this man, and he loves you, and like he is willing to stand up for that love but he doesn't know how.  If that is the case, I say you have him tell his parents "this is the budget, this is the MAX amount of guests (including SOs and children) you can invite.  If you don't like it, we will elope and there will be no post-marriage celebration party either."

Edited to try and get out of box.  But nope!

I never said that, though.

I said in one post that I don't think the OP should give in to every demand that her FILs are making with respect to her wedding at the expense of alienating her own family and their culture/traditions.

And in my 2nd post I said that it doesn't seem like the OP and her FI are actually combining families by marrying, but rather the OP is assimilating into her FIL's family.  Combining means to merge, and it doesn't seem like there is a merger here.  It seems like the OP and her family are trying to be accommodating and to "merge" but that the FILs are not.

I agree with the 2nd bolded, totally.  If you guys are serious about being together, you have to decide as a couple what and where your personal boundaries are and your FI has to enforce them with his family.  You shouldn't feel you have to sneak out of FIL's events to see your own family, whether those events are religious or not.

ladyamanuet

Sorry, @prettygirllost, I was paraphrasing.  What you said, to me, meant "in this setup you won't be merging, you'll essentially be giving up your family for his, are you ready for that"

ETA: Because to me, if she is assimilated fully into his family, it would mean seeing her family a great deal less, and in essence, giving up her family for his

PrettyGirlLost

ladyamanuet said:

Sorry, @prettygirllost, I was paraphrasing.  What you said, to me, meant "in this setup you won't be merging, you'll essentially be giving up your family for his, are you ready for that"

Sneaking off to go visit with her family doesn't seem like a merger to me.

I agree with everything you said in the above post.

ladyamanuet

@prettygirllost we agree on all points it seems

HisGirlFriday13

I ditto @prettygirllost. I don't think your FI is emotionally ready for marriage, and I think you need to look at what that means.

Also, as long as the glatt kosher people are hosted properly and not in a less-than fashion, they don't get to dictate anything else -- no what the meals are or how they're prepared.

I reiterate giving them choices: glatt kosher and fewer guests; not kosher and all their guests; not over a meal time, solving the glatt kosher conundrum.

penelope4612

Wow I thought I was having issues with our Jewish/Catholic wedding but this certainly blows my problems out of the water. His side wanted a big wedding (his brother had a "small" 300 person wedding). My family doesn't have tons of money to contribute, nor do I have a large family. I think if we had laid out the numbers for them, his mom would have happily paid for every single person she wanted to invite, but I was not comfortable being at a large wedding or at a wedding where my guests only made up about 1/4 of the guests, considering most of the people his mother wanted to invite were people I didn't know. We tried to "compromise" by having a 100 person wedding but his mom could not pare down her list and I knew as soon as we signed a contract with a venue, his mother would want to fill every seat. So we agreed immediate family, aunts, uncles and cousins, wedding party (we had already asked them at this point) and a few friends each, and booked a venue with a max capacity of 60. His mom will be throwing us a party for all her family/friends at a later date (her choice).

Rebl90

lebeers said:

phira said:

How kosher are we talking here, by the way? Obviously, some people are more all out about keeping kosher than other people, but couldn't people have a vegetarian option? Or is it more like ... they won't attend if any of the food served isn't kosher?

For the more Orthodox members of his extended family, i.e. grandma and grandpa, very kosher. A non-kosher caterer's vegetarian option wouldn't cut it because the kitchen and food needs to be prepared in a very particular (and evidently very expensive) way. If the vegetarian food was cooked on a surface that has had meat and dairy on it in the past it's not okay, among other reasons. We are even encountering issues with the booze that venues want to serve--Captain Morgan's apparently has spices that are not considered kosher by some people, which was practically a deal-breaker for the groomsmen! Most of the cordials have to be cleared out.
And yes, they would not be able to attend if all the food was not prepared in a strict kosher fashion. They don't want to have separate meals brought in. Not that I blame them, because they have gone to events in the past where they have been segregated to a different area and given cold saran-wrapped meals in fabulous airline food fashion. Talk about bad etiquette.

grumbledore said:

This really sucks, I'm sorry you are in this position.  Your FI has to be the one to stand up to his parents.  $10K isn't a lot when you need to feet over 200 people, especially when the food needs to meet some very specific and arduous requirements.

He has to tell them that you just can't do this the way they want him to.

If they insist on the huge guest list, they either have to pay for it, or they have to accept that the reception might be a simple cake&punch affair rather than a big mealtime reception.

If it were me in this situation, I'd be declining the $10K and planning the wedding I could afford for the number of people I wanted to host and tell them to just deal with it.

He's always had a bit of an issue sticking up to his mom. He has told her that we just don't have the resources for this wedding--you're right that 10k does not go very far, particularly in our very high cost of living area. But he hasn't really gotten through and I feel uncomfortable (and unproductive) pushing the issue personally.
I have brought up the possibilities of less food--cake and punch, a modest dairy brunch, a dessert table--and his family didn't love the idea. They feel it is poor etiquette not to offer your guests a full meal. But all of us need to find ways to compromise for this to work and maybe that is a better way to do so. Our wedding won't be as grand as his cousins' wedding and that has to be okay with everyone.
I'm afraid that there is this underlying notion of spending a lot on the wedding to "win" the inheritance and then pay off our debt with that money. It has been suggested that that was what the other family members did. We do not feel good about that at all if that is the assumption.
In any case, it's hard for me to plan the wedding we want and tell people to deal with it because these relationships are delicate. To be honest I am still not certain they are even okay with us getting married. At this point he says "screw this and screw the money, all I care about is marrying you and celebrating with the people that love and accept us," but having a wedding that his family wouldn't show up for would probably not be a happy wedding day for him.
My family is very patient and understanding, but the fact they have felt the need to shave their list down to 9 guests to compensate may result in my side harboring at lot of resentment at the end of the day also.

I am so very sorry to hear that you are dealing with this stressful situation, but I just wanted to address what I've made bold. Yes, your FI's parents have offered $10K for glatt kosher catering, BUT it does not cover even their portion of the guest list. It is time to decline the offer and say, "thank you so much for your generous offer but unfortunately the costs of kosher catering are so high we will not be able to make a full kosher dinner a possibility but can intend do a kosher brunch or dessert reception".  Once you decline their money they have no say at all at how you host  YOUR guests, not theirs.  You can always give them a certain number of guests that they can choose or you will decide for them.  There is absolutely wrong with a cake and punch reception (held at a non-meal time) or morning brunch reception, they are wrong.  I have been to both types of receptions and have had a great time and felt properly hosted.  

If you take their money you must let them have a say.  If I were in your position I would be doing the former, and host a wedding I could afford and be proud of.  I hope you find the perfect solution to all of this mess and have the wedding of your dreams!

lebeers

Oy vey.
I did spend all of Passover with his family. It was very intense and very long and most of where all these issues came to a head. His grandfather pays for the whole family to stay at a Passover resort for the week. He is definitely the Orthodox patriarch of the family, and where the pushback is really originating from.
My fiance would not have had any reservations about telling the rest of his family that he was joining my family for a big fat Easter ham. He told them that last year, and his grandfather was the only one that had an [very vocal] issue with it, so we decided to avoid the problem altogether this year and not bother telling them why we weren't coming to dinner. He has always spent Christmas with my family and I have spent Hanukkah with his, and I think our parents are very happy with that arrangement, but he wouldn't dare tell his grandparents about decorating my parents' Christmas tree. Most of the conflict with my fiance's parents comes around these situations when the more old-school members of the family are involved i.e. Passover, inheritances, weddings. I think his mom is not so personally dismissive of my culture/family than concerned about her parents coming down on him--and her too--about his life choices. In day-to-day life we don't really have these problems; our parents can get together and have a fun dinner at a [non-kosher] restaurant without an issue. I love his parents, he loves mine, but as soon as extended family gets involved it morphs into this really hurtful, strange, passive-aggressive situation. I actually really like his grandparents too, but I think they come from a very extreme and isolated place culturally. They aren't mean or racist people, but they have virtually no contact with people who aren't Jewish. Even my fiance has been surprised and confused with their reactions and expectations. (Like recently they were saying that no one they know celebrates New Years' Eve, and he couldn't figure out if they were kidding or not.) So I think, from my fiance's perspective, it's not worth picking a fight and potentially becoming estranged from or dividing the family over a fight with his eighty-something-year-old grandparents at this point.
@prettygirllost In his defense, he is a ridiculously loving and supportive person and he does stand up to his mother when these conflicts arise, but there seems to be very little effective communication happening there. There have been times when he has had fights with his mother and stopped talking to her for months for reasons I didn't know explicitly, but I can almost promise that it was because he stood up for himself and she just wasn't hearing it. @ladyamanuet, I don't think that this "assimilation" will result in not seeing my family as often--we spend a lot of time with my family and I think we have actually gotten even closer with them during this whole frustrating ordeal. I am more often concerned that we won't see his family once this is all over, and I go to great lengths to try to maintain those relationships, sometimes at my own expense. (My dad had a similar relationship with his own mother and watching him grow more and more estranged from her was really difficult and sad.)
Reading through this thread has been a huge wake-up call. I have been trying for literally half of my life to get to the point where we are now, but the fact that our scenario has improved more than I realistically thought it could doesn't mean that it is okay. It hurts me to type that but it is true.

I spoke to my fiance about counseling and he agreed that it is a good idea. It has become very evident during this whole wedding planning process that we still have a lot to work through. I explained to him that this has evolved into something that will put us in a very damaging financial and emotional place, and he feels the same way.
Moving forward with planning, we discussed going back to our original plans. It was really refreshing to talk about the wedding we wanted in the first place. We are considering the possibility of having a reception on a Saturday night, at the venue we want, with the food we want, with 100 or so our friends and family who can make it, on OUR budget. Similar to @diosa428, we would then have a kosher brunch at the synagogue with a handful of family and family friends the next day. Low-key, modest food, and under the FIL's budget, if they're willing. I know they won't be thrilled with the smaller guest list, but I really feel that's the best way to keep everyone happy...ish. We may lose the inheritance and even some of his family, but I think it would be enough to maintain relationships with our parents and most importantly with one another.

Or we may just elope. He is very open to it even though it would piss off his family. In any case, there some recurring issues brought up by PP that will bleed into our own decisions about kids, religion, culture, community, etc. that we thought we had figured out and clearly have to revisit. If we have to "compromise" away everything we want to avoid serious conflict then this isn't working.
Thanks to you guys for your simultaneous empathetic support and brutal honesty. And for reading my insanely long therapeutic rants. Phew.
What do you guys think about the 2-part wedding?

AlexisA01

@lebeers I am so sorry that you had to go through with all that with your FI side. I would no think of it as a two part wedding. Just having your wedding on Saturday and then I would do a celebration sometime after wards so that it doesn't overlap. Invite the family that wasn't invited to the wedding and  have a get together. 

rsbloom

I am still stuck on the "can't stand up to mom" issue.  My FMIL is tough, especially with money, and even though it is difficult, my FI has learned to stand up to her, and we know how to stand together on issues on our own, so we are united before we talk to people about plans. 

If mom has the last word on everything, and your FI can't stand up to her, that means he chooses HER over YOU.  And he will continue to chooser HER over YOU on everything, like how you raise your kids, how you spend your money, etc.  

Or, if he is really looking forward to the inheritance, he will make choices based on THAT over you, which is not good either.

Talk to your FI about this, because it won't go away.  You need to be a TEAM. 

Once you're sure about being on the same team, make a game plan, get other family members on "your side" and then sit mom down and tell her how it is going to be. 

phira

... yeah. I'd elope at this point. I'm sorry!

PrettyGirlLost

@lebeers Thank you for coming back to talk with us more and not taking my posts the wrong way or being offended by them- I in no way meant them to be.

Thanks for elaborating on your family dynamics more. . . I'm glad to hear that both your parents and FI's parents getting along well.  I'm sorry his grandfather is a PIA, though

lebeers

rsbloom said:

I am still stuck on the "can't stand up to mom" issue.  My FMIL is tough, especially with money, and even though it is difficult, my FI has learned to stand up to her, and we know how to stand together on issues on our own, so we are united before we talk to people about plans. 

If mom has the last word on everything, and your FI can't stand up to her, that means he chooses HER over YOU.  And he will continue to chooser HER over YOU on everything, like how you raise your kids, how you spend your money, etc.  

Or, if he is really looking forward to the inheritance, he will make choices based on THAT over you, which is not good either.

Talk to your FI about this, because it won't go away.  You need to be a TEAM. 

Once you're sure about being on the same team, make a game plan, get other family members on "your side" and then sit mom down and tell her how it is going to be. 

I don't think it's about a choice between us that would result in me losing him. But it's still a choice. Dirty but true. He's done it before and I've fought him about distancing himself from his family again. My mom is my best friend and I have worked hard to ensure his mother remains a part of his life, despite the fact that she has long been...well, maybe not my biggest fan. I saw how much it hurt my father when eventually he wrote off my grandma for years not approving of his marriage to my mother, and I have wanted to avoid that fate for my own husband.
@rsbloom, you said your FI has *learned* to stand up to his mom, were you a part of that? Did you encourage him to stand up to her in a productive and harmonious way? Did she have a hard time hearing him at first?
I know that on TK there are a lot of advocates of empowered brides against FIL that do not understand etiquette as we know it. But most people do not understand wedding etiquette (girls, I've been to a lot of cash bar weddings, sorry to tell say it), or human etiquette for that matter, but these people are still people we have to deal with and respect.
Last night I embodied the full spirit of this website with my FI--I told him we are having the wedding we want, and we can pay for, and your family is going to have to deal with that. He stood up for me whole-heartedly. But this essentially results in him telling his parents that they can't invite the more observant (and important) members of the family, that they can't eat at the wedding, and more or less telling them to f--- off.
And I was not okay with this result. He obviously didn't feel great about it either, but he agreed to tell his family that this was our decision. I left great for a hot minute, then cried myself to sleep. (JK, I didn't sleep.)
I think that some family disputes--especially larger family issues--are inherently unresolvable. When we met at 15 and he told me that he wasn't allowed to date gentiles, should I have seen that as a red flag? Of course. When we started seriously dating after college and he told me that he couldn't marry me until his grandparents passed should I have laughed that off? Obviously not. But I did, because married and children was not even on my radar and I loved this man to my very core. What we had worked flawlessly until he proposed last September, confessing that it would be controversial...I thought he was being dramatic. But only since we have been engaged have we worked so hard to be a happy relationship within a bigger picture.
At the end of the day this is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. With that said, the cost of our families, our religions, our cultures, the emotional toll of our "big day", or the actual financial cost of hosting this (30k? 40k? 50k? 75k?!) wedding may ultimately damage our relationship beyond repair anyway, regardless of how tough we think we are as a couple. We are two people that have supported one another through excruciating financial, medical and psychological situations, but we are still two people. This thread has made me realize that--despite our strong bond--we still may be rushing this issue. I don't want to compromise the life we have shared for years for what is revealing itself as a vastly larger issue than both of us previously thought it was. I also don't want to ask my fiance to give up his family, and whether it's about the will or an invitation to a Passover Seder, I will do everything I can to not put him in that position aside from sacrificing the health of our relationship.
@prettygirllost, @hisgirlfriday13 @casey8784 @ladyamanuet @grumbledore, and others' usernames that aren't in my weird typographic memory: thank you so much again for your candor, and dealing with my long confessionals. (Sorry, I'm a writer...maybe I'll write a book/blog about this BS one day that no one will read.) I always appreciate constructive criticism that helps me guide my way through this maze of marriage madness. FWIW you girls have been helpful to me in other threads I've visited in recent weeks as well. This forum often oversimplifies, but you guys are keeping bitches like me on point, even when it's not exactly what we want to hear. If y'all are combating crippling divorce statistics by reminding girls it's not all about their one day of giant ballgowns OR pleasing everyone they know to their detriment, then bless you gals. BUT remember that we're real humans in complex relationships in volatile times on the other ends of this series of tubes and we take this stuff to heart, so always be good.
And yeah, @phira, after all this we'll probably just f*cking elope...maybe start a new life in Luxembourg or something.

RebeccaB88

I like you, @lebeers.

abrewer5

photokitty said:

1) don't factor in the inheritance in your decision. Get married bc you love each, not bc there MAY be a large gift, dowry or otherwise.

2) eloping or a kosher cake and punch reception sound awesome

3) whatever you decide DO NOT go into debt for a wedding. it's not wise to start your new life together in debt - especially for a wedding you molded around other's expectations.

Personally I'd elope.

As someone who has been thru a VERY similar situation with wedding planning (not religious based) and being 17 days out and STILL having issues with ILs over the guest list and now money given to us thrown in our face, do yourself a favor and elope. I totally regret not listening to my FI.  

Whatever is going to make you and your FI happy at the end of the day is what you should do. Don't let your IL's influence your wedding and force you into anything you don't want. Aside from properly hosting, which includes respecting peoples religious needs in regards to food, there is nothing wrong with having a smaller wedding.

Have your FI let your IL's know if they cannot cut the list to X people you will not be able to afford the wedding and you will plan something smaller for you and your FI.

Jen4948

abrewer5 said:

photokitty said:

1) don't factor in the inheritance in your decision. Get married bc you love each, not bc there MAY be a large gift, dowry or otherwise.

2) eloping or a kosher cake and punch reception sound awesome

3) whatever you decide DO NOT go into debt for a wedding. it's not wise to start your new life together in debt - especially for a wedding you molded around other's expectations.

Personally I'd elope.

As someone who has been thru a VERY similar situation with wedding planning (not religious based) and being 17 days out and STILL having issues with ILs over the guest list and now money given to us thrown in our face, do yourself a favor and elope. I totally regret not listening to my FI.  

Whatever is going to make you and your FI happy at the end of the day is what you should do. Don't let your IL's influence your wedding and force you into anything you don't want. Aside from properly hosting, which includes respecting peoples religious needs in regards to food, there is nothing wrong with having a smaller wedding.

Have your FI let your IL's know if they cannot cut the list to X people you will not be able to afford the wedding and you will plan something smaller for you and your FI.

Eloping is not necessarily the answer.  The answer is setting and maintaining boundaries with FILs-not just during the wedding planning but throughout the marriage.  If they pout, make threats, get huffy and storm out because you have a boundary in place that they're not willing to respect, then as painful as it is, you go on with your life and have the wedding you want regardless of what they do. 

But that does not mean that you have to run away and have a totally private marriage ceremony without your loved ones there, simply because some of them are immature and disrespectful of you.

rsbloom

I was a part of encouraging him to stand up to his mom, he lived at home almost until we moved in together.  And before that, he spent a lot of time at my apartment.  He wasn't used to not talking to or seeing his family everyday, and it was a difficult transition for him.I grew up with a LARGE family around me, and I learned to say no to things, because there was simply not enough time to please everyone, and do everything all my relatives asked me to.  He only has his 4 person family out here, all his relatives are on the east coast. 

We just had serious conversations about how the farther along we go, marriage, kids, the more we have to make our family unit the first priority.  We are not going be able to go to their house every weekend, we are not going to be able to spend EVERY holiday with them.    And I think it's harder because we moved in together and are planning the wedding, and I think his mom is upset to be "losing" her baby.  But he has come around to making us  a priority, and knows that we have to say no to some things.

As for the wedding, my FI's mom is an accountant and really a penny-pincher, and she had a few ways of pushing her ideas on us. One, she would pop up with something she thought was too expensive and catch everyone off guard and my FI, who wasn't aware of every little breakdown in the budget, would take her side, thinking it was really expensive.  Other times, his mom would hear what we wanted and then try pushing her original plan for the wedding onto us, and ignore us.   

She is also VERY good at playing the victim card when anyone disagrees with her, "Well, I guess I'm just an idiot then.  I guess I just don't know anything." etc.. which was hard for FI to get over, he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

I want to note that his family is only paying for the flowers, so that's the place they get an input, even though she's tried dictating other areas.

For the first, I learned to sit down and show him what the financials looked like as well as average prices for things in our area, and it made more sense to him.  We also decided to tell them, "We'll talk about it and let you know."  That way whether we disagreed or agreed on an issue, we came back to them with one, united, answer.    

For the second, he has told her repeatedly that it is OUR wedding, and yes they get a say in the budget for the flowers, but she doesn't get to dictate what everything looks like.  When that didn't work, we tried going through his Dad.  We talked to Dad on the side, got him on our page, and then went in on mom.  Even though she found out that we did this, dad blabbed, and she was pissed at us, we got her to agree with us and she didn't back out.  Also, sometimes dad didn't get through to her, so we went to her sister, whom she is very close to, and she got through to her.  

As for the hurting her feelings part, he got sick of her trying to manipulate us like that.  We've decided for other areas to not tell her any info unless she specifically asks, and bean dip with the "We'll talk about it and let you know."

PrettyGirlLost

@lebeers, I'm sorry that your engagement has been such a stressful time for you and your FI.  I wish that his grandparents weren't so close-minded ><

Are you and your FI postponing the wedding until you can figure out how to have the wedding you both want and can afford, while not totally alienating his family?  I wish you both a lot of luck, as I'm sure that is a very difficult situation.  I hope that ladies who have a similar marriage or have similar experience to yours can continue to offer you guidance.

Please stick around and join us in discussions and let us know if you ever have a question, need to vent, need a virtual hug, etc.

laurag524

I feel for you...had a similar situation when I was getting married except with my husband's Indian family.

phira

rsbloom said:

I was a part of encouraging him to stand up to his mom, he lived at home almost until we moved in together.  And before that, he spent a lot of time at my apartment.  He wasn't used to not talking to or seeing his family everyday, and it was a difficult transition for him.I grew up with a LARGE family around me, and I learned to say no to things, because there was simply not enough time to please everyone, and do everything all my relatives asked me to.  He only has his 4 person family out here, all his relatives are on the east coast. 

We just had serious conversations about how the farther along we go, marriage, kids, the more we have to make our family unit the first priority.  We are not going be able to go to their house every weekend, we are not going to be able to spend EVERY holiday with them.    And I think it's harder because we moved in together and are planning the wedding, and I think his mom is upset to be "losing" her baby.  But he has come around to making us  a priority, and knows that we have to say no to some things.

As for the wedding, my FI's mom is an accountant and really a penny-pincher, and she had a few ways of pushing her ideas on us. One, she would pop up with something she thought was too expensive and catch everyone off guard and my FI, who wasn't aware of every little breakdown in the budget, would take her side, thinking it was really expensive.  Other times, his mom would hear what we wanted and then try pushing her original plan for the wedding onto us, and ignore us.   

She is also VERY good at playing the victim card when anyone disagrees with her, "Well, I guess I'm just an idiot then.  I guess I just don't know anything." etc.. which was hard for FI to get over, he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

I want to note that his family is only paying for the flowers, so that's the place they get an input, even though she's tried dictating other areas.

For the first, I learned to sit down and show him what the financials looked like as well as average prices for things in our area, and it made more sense to him.  We also decided to tell them, "We'll talk about it and let you know."  That way whether we disagreed or agreed on an issue, we came back to them with one, united, answer.    

For the second, he has told her repeatedly that it is OUR wedding, and yes they get a say in the budget for the flowers, but she doesn't get to dictate what everything looks like.  When that didn't work, we tried going through his Dad.  We talked to Dad on the side, got him on our page, and then went in on mom.  Even though she found out that we did this, dad blabbed, and she was pissed at us, we got her to agree with us and she didn't back out.  Also, sometimes dad didn't get through to her, so we went to her sister, whom she is very close to, and she got through to her.  

As for the hurting her feelings part, he got sick of her trying to manipulate us like that.  We've decided for other areas to not tell her any info unless she specifically asks, and bean dip with the "We'll talk about it and let you know."

That's definitely an emotional abuse tactic. I don't mean to sound all the alarms exactly, but I think that it's easy to hand-wave this kind of manipulation as a character flaw, or to minimize it as something that isn't that damaging. In fact, it is extremely damaging abusive behavior.

My grandmother engages in very similar manipulative behavior, and it's easy to see how effectively it works on my mom. Like, my mom is an adult woman in her mid-50s, with a job and a house and her own adult children, and my grandmother still manipulates her. Lots of, "Well, I must be the worst mother ever then," or, "I can't believe you would do this to your family." The second one was used because she didn't want my mom hosting her own Thanksgiving dinner for her boyfriend and boyfriend's kids.

rosiro

Okay, call me crazy but I really don't understand why we are having the conversation and why this is an issue.Maybe I don't have patience for the absurd but I cannot for the life of me understand why you and maybe more your fiancee tell them that you cannot do this. One needs money to pay for something, end of story. If they are rich, then they should foot the bill. If not, tell them no and do what you want. Or break up already! This more than ridiculous. I am sorry but this whole thing blows my mind. Do you really want these ppl as your in-laws??

Jen4948

rosiro said:

Okay, call me crazy but I really don't understand why we are having the conversation and why this is an issue.Maybe I don't have patience for the absurd but I cannot for the life of me understand why you and maybe more your fiancee tell them that you cannot do this. One needs money to pay for something, end of story. If they are rich, then they should foot the bill. If not, tell them no and do what you want. Or break up already! This more than ridiculous. I am sorry but this whole thing blows my mind. Do you really want these ppl as your in-laws??

What an insensitive post.  Someone's FI can be a wonderful person and still have a problem family.  And you know something?  She already said no and they refuse to accept it for an answer.  Your post shows a profound lack of empathy, compassion, and just plain politeness.  Sometimes saying no is HARD-especially when they don't get it and you have to keep saying it.  That's not a reason for breaking up with one's fiance.

SammiNJonni

rosiro said:

Okay, call me crazy but I really don't understand why we are having the conversation and why this is an issue.Maybe I don't have patience for the absurd but I cannot for the life of me understand why you and maybe more your fiancee tell them that you cannot do this. One needs money to pay for something, end of story. If they are rich, then they should foot the bill. If not, tell them no and do what you want. Or break up already! This more than ridiculous. I am sorry but this whole thing blows my mind. Do you really want these ppl as your in-laws??

  Seriously? Glad to know in law troubles would have you leave your FI. She came here for advice not to be told to leave her fiance. Nice first post on the boards.

lebeers

rsbloom said:

I was a part of encouraging him to stand up to his mom, he lived at home almost until we moved in together.  And before that, he spent a lot of time at my apartment.  He wasn't used to not talking to or seeing his family everyday, and it was a difficult transition for him.I grew up with a LARGE family around me, and I learned to say no to things, because there was simply not enough time to please everyone, and do everything all my relatives asked me to.  He only has his 4 person family out here, all his relatives are on the east coast. 

We just had serious conversations about how the farther along we go, marriage, kids, the more we have to make our family unit the first priority.  We are not going be able to go to their house every weekend, we are not going to be able to spend EVERY holiday with them.    And I think it's harder because we moved in together and are planning the wedding, and I think his mom is upset to be "losing" her baby.  But he has come around to making us  a priority, and knows that we have to say no to some things.

As for the wedding, my FI's mom is an accountant and really a penny-pincher, and she had a few ways of pushing her ideas on us. One, she would pop up with something she thought was too expensive and catch everyone off guard and my FI, who wasn't aware of every little breakdown in the budget, would take her side, thinking it was really expensive.  Other times, his mom would hear what we wanted and then try pushing her original plan for the wedding onto us, and ignore us.   

She is also VERY good at playing the victim card when anyone disagrees with her, "Well, I guess I'm just an idiot then.  I guess I just don't know anything." etc.. which was hard for FI to get over, he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

I want to note that his family is only paying for the flowers, so that's the place they get an input, even though she's tried dictating other areas.

For the first, I learned to sit down and show him what the financials looked like as well as average prices for things in our area, and it made more sense to him.  We also decided to tell them, "We'll talk about it and let you know."  That way whether we disagreed or agreed on an issue, we came back to them with one, united, answer.    

For the second, he has told her repeatedly that it is OUR wedding, and yes they get a say in the budget for the flowers, but she doesn't get to dictate what everything looks like.  When that didn't work, we tried going through his Dad.  We talked to Dad on the side, got him on our page, and then went in on mom.  Even though she found out that we did this, dad blabbed, and she was pissed at us, we got her to agree with us and she didn't back out.  Also, sometimes dad didn't get through to her, so we went to her sister, whom she is very close to, and she got through to her.  

As for the hurting her feelings part, he got sick of her trying to manipulate us like that.  We've decided for other areas to not tell her any info unless she specifically asks, and bean dip with the "We'll talk about it and let you know."

@rsbloom,
Thanks so much for your awesome thoughtful contribution to my thread. And wow can I relate to a lot of the things you have said. Originally I thought you were one of the more critical responses and now I realize you are coming from a place of total understanding.

Our situation is a bit flipped because I lived with my very tight 4-person family for all my life (outside of college) and hung out at my FI's place quite often earlier in our relationship. My extended family is all out on the other coast and his is all within an our drive. So I hear where you are, but from the other side, in that regard.

Holidays are so hard. Most people don't understand just how challenging any given holiday can be within a totally loving, unified family. I took that for granted most of my life. When we started dating so many friends said "It's so great that you guys will never have to fight over whose parents' house you go to for Easter or Christmas!". I never realized that someone in his family may feel that going to my family's house means that we are choosing Christianity over Passover observance. At the core my FI and I maintain the same spiritual and religious beliefs, which are not necessarily what our parents practice. But we both believe in the importance of maintaining family in our lives and honoring our parents. Easier said than done.
For the sake of argument, my FIL are paying for the flowers, because in the NYC area that's about how much 10k will cover. Ugh. But we are still having arguments over everything including the food, the venue, the guest list, the band, the photographer...basically everything except the florist, actually.
MY FMIL is passive-aggressive in a different way. Rather than, "well, I guess I don't know anything then!"...she's more into the idea of "well, it is your wedding, but you've never planned a wedding...or a bar mitzvah...and I've planned MANY events...so you guys don't know what you're talking about." She's right that we've never planned a wedding because we haven't gotten married yet, or never planned a bar mitzvah because we haven't had kids yet. Sorry, mom-in-law, that we are not divorced with kids. Our mistake.
Our families should not get to dictate everything that happens. I originally believed that our conception of our wedding would have been the awesome, offbeat and affordable wedding we wanted, but would also have been classy, fun, and would have honored and respected both of our families. It hurt me to hear that our "dream wedding" was not acceptable by my FIL standards. I really thought us agreeing on a modest, inexpensive wedding would please our families; in my culture/family I had heard repeatedly that it was much more important that we save our family for a down payment on a house, our businesses, future children, things other than a big party. My parents had 30 people at their appetizer-and-punch reception and thought it was a bit over the top!
But I also know that my FMIL is coming from a cultural place where she has only attended very large, traditional Jewish weddings in massive banquet halls, and she thinks that our ideas aren't legit wedding plans at all. (She keeps reminding us that we invited 200 people to our last Halloween party...but we weren't paying $198/person at our Halloween house party. Nor did we hire a photographer or a florist or a band.) I wish she had been really straightforward with me about this from the beginning. When I originally pitched 150 guests back in September I thought that she was snickering because she thought it was too many.
So @rsbloom, I really feel you on the dip. My FMIL dodged the guest list request for months among other things. This was followed up by my FFIL apologizing and reminded us that "it's our wedding", which was actually really refreshing. The truth is that he understands the problems at large in a way that FMIL doesn't (especially financially) and probably won't ever try to understand. My FI jokes about the old cliche of asking mom if you can go out with friends and she says no...so then you try to ask dad without her knowing because you know he'll say yes. Or he says "ask your mother". Bummer.
We've been talking about finding a way to talk to FFIL without mama present to establish what elements and guests are truly essential to include. Then we can include FMIL in the next convo knowing the bottom line.

As some PP have pointed out, there's a big issue about money, but there's a separate big issue about culture. If my FI and I were billionaires and could afford any wedding we wanted, we would still probably encounter some of the same issues.
bloom, thanks for your help, message me if you ever need a private wedding-vent-buddy

moonpowder

The thing about the inheritance is either true or bluff. So I would do this: Go to the grand parent and ask them what they think about the wedding and the inheritance threat.

If the wedding standard is so important to them that they would really stop you guy from inheriting later. Ask for a part of the inheritance right now to pay for the wedding extra. It's a win-win because they will have the high standard wedding and later you will have inheritance.

If they don't really care and it's just bluff from relative, do as you wish. It's also a win-win because you do as you want and you will still have the inheritance.