.......But you're already married......(?)

AddieCake

STBMrsEverhart said:

AddieCake said:

I never understood the expression sleep like a baby. Don't babies wake up a lot? Or taking candy from a baby. That seems like it would be pretty damned hard if they really wanted it and had their little baby death grip on it!

Perhaps I should have said I sleep like the dead, which shouldn't be taken literally either. I assume babies wake up a lot during the night but probably not due to the stress of their lacking in moral fortitude. If my 79 pound American bulldog wasn't kicking me in his sleep, or using me as a pillow, or flopping around the bed like a mad man I'd sleep peacefully too. 

I don't care if the babies wake up from lacking in moral fortitude or not or if you sleep well or not.  I just thought it would be a good time to voice my thoughts on the taking candy from a baby and sleep like a baby expressions since it was used. 

mrs4everhart

AddieCake said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

AddieCake said:

I never understood the expression sleep like a baby. Don't babies wake up a lot? Or taking candy from a baby. That seems like it would be pretty damned hard if they really wanted it and had their little baby death grip on it!

Perhaps I should have said I sleep like the dead, which shouldn't be taken literally either. I assume babies wake up a lot during the night but probably not due to the stress of their lacking in moral fortitude. If my 79 pound American bulldog wasn't kicking me in his sleep, or using me as a pillow, or flopping around the bed like a mad man I'd sleep peacefully too. 

I don't care if the babies wake up from lacking in moral fortitude or not or if you sleep well or not.  I just thought it would be a good time to voice my thoughts on the taking candy from a baby and sleep like a baby expressions since it was used. 

Babies give up candy quite easily. Give them something more interesting instead - fireworks, child-proof pill bottles, anything they shouldn't have. It's human nature to covet. Yes, I'm joking. 

Nymeru

Just putting this out there.  My FI comes from a VERY orthodox/fundamental religious family.  I have a hard time wrapping my head around how some of his family members view things, but I can definitely tell you this:  to them a civil marriage doesn't count for anything.  Sure, you have to sign the piece of paper to be legally acknowledged, but not until you have the church ceremony is the union even recognized by their family/community/church/God.  I have actually seen their pastor beg civilly married couples from the congregation to stop "living in sin" and to get married correctly.

To illustrate:  my FBIL and his wife were asking us when we were going to get our "paper ceremony" done prior to the actual wedding.  When we told them that we were doing it all in one go (signing the marriage certificate at the actual wedding) my FBIL's wife flipped out at my FMIL and FFIL saying, "You mean we didn't have to go through that hell TWICE???" (They had had their Spanish ceremony with the JP the week before their wedding to make sure it would be legal on paper).  Neither my FBIL or his wife had any clue that the signing of the marriage certificate could be done at the wedding.  They thought that the legal paperwork HAD to be done prior to the religious ceremony. They saw the civil ceremony as a legal hoop they had to jump through.

So, before people go totally nuts about PPD weddings, just realize that for many people from religious communities, it's just how things are done.  To them a marriage is not a "real" marriage unless it was formally blessed by their pastor/minister/whatever, so they feel they still have every right to have their day in the sun regardless of when they signed the legal document.  Food for thought.

theartistformerlyknownas

@Nymeru‌ I actually agree with you when there's a solid religious reason to need both, and some other reason like geography requiring them to be separate. BUT that's not the case in most of these stories, where people are blatantly using a civil marriage to defraud the government/employers/insurance companies and lie to their families. They had a choice. They chose what was easy/most beneficial to them out of pure selfishness.

AddieCake

Ditto LoLo.  When it's a religious thing or rules in a foreign country, people are generally understanding on this subject. But waaaaaaay too often around here, people are just doing it for visas, benefits, want a certain date, just want to be married NOW but can't afford a big wedding, etc. And then they lie to their friends and family about it. That's what's not cool. 

CMGragain

There is a word for the practice of having a civil marriage for reasons of immigration, insurance, or military benefits, but not considering yourself to be "really married".  It is called FRAUD.

mrs4everhart

CMGragain said:

There is a word for the practice of having a civil marriage for reasons of immigration, insurance, or military benefits, but not considering yourself to be "really married".  It is called FRAUD.

Really? Fraud is a legal term. And no one is under any legal obligation to tell anyone that they are married, unless some law will be broken should they fail to come forward with the information. Not telling one's family/friends *may* piss them off, but it doesn't fit the definition of fraud, again, unless some law is being broken. And the rules of etiquette are not the same as laws.

kerbohl

Why can't people just have a big party to celebrate their marriage?  I don't quite understand that whole point of having an unnecessary ceremony just for the sake of pictures, or for family, when you can skip that whole part because you're already married and just have an awesome party with you friends and family to celebrate your union.  I do understand wearing a big dress, but I'm one to come up with any excuse to wear a big dress . . .
Is this just another symptom of the wedding industry?  That there is no such thing as a "celebrate that we're married" party?  That would make things far easier for wives and husbands that got married at JOP but still want to celebrate with friends and family afterwards. 
I've got a question about such things.  What do you guys think of having wedding pictures taken after the wedding day?  They aren't pictures of your actual day, but these whole "trash the dress" sessions where you can be more relaxed and have just your husband with you . . . does anyone see that as a lie as well?  You are wearing a wedding dress, but you aren't getting married that day. 

AddieCake

kerbohl said:

 What do you guys think of having wedding pictures taken after the wedding day?  They aren't pictures of your actual day, but these whole "trash the dress" sessions where you can be more relaxed and have just your husband with you . . . does anyone see that as a lie as well?  You are wearing a wedding dress, but you aren't getting married that day. 

I totally planned on doing a Rock the Dress shoot. I had the place all picked out in Texas, and then didn't get time to do it before we moved. It would probably be weird if I still did it now that I've been married for two years, but I still really want to! 

It's not a lie. It's just a dress at that point. Plenty of people have wedding dresses that they can then wear again for other occasions. 

theartistformerlyknownas

STBMrsEverhart said:

There is a word for the practice of having a civil marriage for reasons of immigration, insurance, or military benefits, but not considering yourself to be "really married".  It is called FRAUD.

Really? Fraud is a legal term. And no one is under any legal obligation to tell anyone that they are married, unless some law will be broken should they fail to come forward with the information. Not telling one's family/friends *may* piss them off, but it doesn't fit the definition of fraud, again, unless some law is being broken. And the rules of etiquette are not the same as laws.

It's insurance fraud and tax fraud to get married for the benefits. You don't consider yourself "really married" but do when it suits you financially. That makes you a criminal.

kerbohl

lolo883 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

There is a word for the practice of having a civil marriage for reasons of immigration, insurance, or military benefits, but not considering yourself to be "really married".  It is called FRAUD.

Really? Fraud is a legal term. And no one is under any legal obligation to tell anyone that they are married, unless some law will be broken should they fail to come forward with the information. Not telling one's family/friends *may* piss them off, but it doesn't fit the definition of fraud, again, unless some law is being broken. And the rules of etiquette are not the same as laws.

It's insurance fraud and tax fraud to get married for the benefits. You don't consider yourself "really married" but do

The dreaded SITB

Didn't the movie "The Proposal" deal with this?  People getting married for immigration purposes?  And if I do recall, it was a big deal to the US government.  I'm sure it's a big deal to insurance companies too, they just haven't made a movie about it yet.

Favouritecake

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government and not lying once on your visa application = not fraud, or criminal.  

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government but falsifying your relationship and lying on your visa application = FRAUD. 

Big difference here.  In order to apply for a visa to live in another country, the application process is ridiculously grueling.  I'm talking mountains of paperwork and photos, bills, phone transcripts, flights, and more proving that your relationship is legit.  Big deal if people choose not to tell friends and family that they did it - there is no law against that.  

LondonLisa

Favouritecake said:

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government and not lying once on your visa application = not fraud, or criminal.  

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government but falsifying your relationship and lying on your visa application = FRAUD. 

Big difference here.  In order to apply for a visa to live in another country, the application process is ridiculously grueling.  I'm talking mountains of paperwork and photos, bills, phone transcripts, flights, and more proving that your relationship is legit.  Big deal if people choose not to tell friends and family that they did it - there is no law against that.  

Firstly, having been through visa processes with Fi- it really isn't THAT insurmountable to get married once and do it properly. Yes, you won't get arrested but you have some pretty questionable morals if you think it is ok to lie to your family and friends about something so fundamental.

But more importantly: honestly people, we should all just stop engaging with STB et al. about this. Nothing is going to change their mind except for when people find out and they wondering why their friends are not speaking to them anymore.  Yes, it may not be the day after and yes, maybe a lot of people won't find out. But one day, maybe 10 years from now, a close friend, sibling or cousin is finally going to say dejectedly: "I was really hurt I wasn't at your wedding". And if the lightbulb doesn't finally flick on that what you did was dishonest, hurtful and rude to the people you love most then you really are a terrible, terrible person.

I say let's invent a "shut it down" code word for conversations like these that automatically brings on the puppies. There isn't two sides to this argument. It is a correct and complete jerk discussion. 

For consideration: Code corgi 

ohannabelle

Fraud isn't only a legal term. It's also a damned accurate noun.

fraud. noun \ˈfrȯd\

: the crime of using dishonest methods to take something valuable from another person

: a person who pretends to be what he or she is not in order to trick people

: a copy of something that is meant to look like the real thing in order to trick people

mrs4everhart

lolo883 said:

STBMrsEverhart said:

There is a word for the practice of having a civil marriage for reasons of immigration, insurance, or military benefits, but not considering yourself to be "really married".  It is called FRAUD.

Really? Fraud is a legal term. And no one is under any legal obligation to tell anyone that they are married, unless some law will be broken should they fail to come forward with the information. Not telling one's family/friends *may* piss them off, but it doesn't fit the definition of fraud, again, unless some law is being broken. And the rules of etiquette are not the same as laws.

It's insurance fraud and tax fraud to get married for the benefits. You don't consider yourself "really married" but do when it suits you financially. That makes you a criminal.

SITB

No, no, no! You see, for far too long now I've been told here on TK it doesn't matter one iota what I consider myself, apparently, because according to this logic once you're legally married, you're married, that's it, there's nothing more to discuss! So which is it? Does it matter what I consider my relationship, or doesn't it? Because frankly, I don't think my insurance company or the federal government gives a rat's ass what I think or consider, so long as the legal qualifications are met and of course, as long as I'm paying them on time. I've never read all the fine print that accompanies my insurance policies but I'm doubting there's an outline of how I'm supposed to handle the details of being married. I hope it doesn't say anything about expensive wedding announcements. Or do you suppose in order for the insurance company to not think me fraudulent I have to yell Steve Carell-style a la LOUD NOISES "I'M MARRIED" to every person I encounter? Or, is it more like this fraud nonsense is just that, nonsense. I'm no more obligated to share my marital status with the public than I am any other personal information. And neither is anyone else. 

mrs4everhart

LondonLisa said:

Favouritecake said:

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government and not lying once on your visa application = not fraud, or criminal.  

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government but falsifying your relationship and lying on your visa application = FRAUD. 

Big difference here.  In order to apply for a visa to live in another country, the application process is ridiculously grueling.  I'm talking mountains of paperwork and photos, bills, phone transcripts, flights, and more proving that your relationship is legit.  Big deal if people choose not to tell friends and family that they did it - there is no law against that.  

Firstly, having been through visa processes with Fi- it really isn't THAT insurmountable to get married once and do it properly. Yes, you won't get arrested but you have some pretty questionable morals if you think it is ok to lie to your family and friends about something so fundamental.

But more importantly: honestly people, we should all just stop engaging with STB et al. about this. Nothing is going to change their mind except for when people find out and they wondering why their friends are not speaking to them anymore.  Yes, it may not be the day after and yes, maybe a lot of people won't find out. But one day, maybe 10 years from now, a close friend, sibling or cousin is finally going to say dejectedly: "I was really hurt I wasn't at your wedding". And if the lightbulb doesn't finally flick on that what you did was dishonest, hurtful and rude to the people you love most then you really are a terrible, terrible person.

I say let's invent a "shut it down" code word for conversations like these that automatically brings on the puppies. There isn't two sides to this argument. It is a correct and complete jerk discussion. 

For consideration: Code corgi 

To the bolded: if my own mother could care less she wasn't there at the license signing, I'm going to take a cue from many a canine and cock my head in a confused way and answer anyone else's dejection with a "huh?" Although if they were in MX with us I'd remind them they were there for our wedding. If they weren't then they probably weren't invited so there wouldn't be much more to discuss. If someone is really disappointed they didn't get to go to the municipal building and watch us sign paperwork, I'd be sad for them, not the other way around. 

And a basic public service announcement: If you're looking to shut down any common sense coming from me try pictures of cats, I hate those fuckers. Puppy pics will attract me like a moth to a flame. 

LondonLisa

sarawifenow

STBMrsEverhart said:

LondonLisa said:

Favouritecake said:

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government and not lying once on your visa application = not fraud, or criminal.  

Being legitimately married in the eyes of the government but falsifying your relationship and lying on your visa application = FRAUD. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Big difference here.  In order to apply for a visa to live in another country, the application process is ridiculously grueling.  I'm talking mountains of paperwork and photos, bills, phone transcripts, flights, and more proving that your relationship is legit.  Big deal if people choose not to tell friends and family that they did it - there is no law against that.  

Firstly, having been through visa processes with Fi- it really isn't THAT insurmountable to get married once and do it properly. Yes, you won't get arrested but you have some pretty questionable morals if you think it is ok to lie to your family and friends about something so fundamental.

But more importantly: honestly people, we should all just stop engaging with STB et al. about this. Nothing is going to change their mind except for when people find out and they wondering why their friends are not speaking to them anymore.  Yes, it may not be the day after and yes, maybe a lot of people won't find out. But one day, maybe 10 years from now, a close friend, sibling or cousin is finally going to say dejectedly: "I was really hurt I wasn't at your wedding". And if the lightbulb doesn't finally flick on that what you did was dishonest, hurtful and rude to the people you love most then you really are a terrible, terrible person.

I say let's invent a "shut it down" code word for conversations like these that automatically brings on the puppies. There isn't two sides to this argument. It is a correct and complete jerk discussion. 

For consideration: Code corgi 

To the bolded: if my own mother could care less she wasn't there at the license signing, I'm going to take a cue from many a canine and cock my head in a confused way and answer anyone else's dejection with a "huh?" Although if they were in MX with us I'd remind them they were there for our wedding. If they weren't then they probably weren't invited so there wouldn't be much more to discuss. If someone is really disappointed they didn't get to go to the municipal building and watch us sign paperwork, I'd be sad for them, not the other way around. 

And a basic public service announcement: If you're looking to shut down any common sense coming from me try pictures of cats, I hate those fuckers. Puppy pics will attract me like a moth to a flame. 

In that case....

VulgarGirl

I just still cannot wrap my brain around the idea that you go out and get a legal document that means nothing to you. If it doesn't mean anything, don't get it then. Spiritually bind yourself together and call it a day. No need to get the government involved if it's totally meaningless. 

I mean, I'm fighting for those damn rights. So maybe they just mean more to me. Maybe, when you've always had the rights, you can't see the importance of them. Perhaps you should give them up and then you can see if they are or aren't important.

(all you's are general)

MollyandD

MagicInk said:

I just still cannot wrap my brain around the idea that you go out and get a legal document that means nothing to you. If it doesn't mean anything, don't get it then. Spiritually bind yourself together and call it a day. No need to get the government involved if it's totally meaningless. 

I mean, I'm fighting for those damn rights. So maybe they just mean more to me. Maybe, when you've always had the rights, you can't see the importance of them. Perhaps you should give them up and then you can see if they are or aren't important.

(all you's are general)

I went and got my marriage license with my fiancé today. It means a lot to me that we have started the process, and that on Saturday, we will sign the certificate. I'd be devastated if I didn't have that right because someone who didn't know me thought my relationship wasn't good enough for legal recognition. 

To me, this is more than paperwork. I'm binding myself legally to the man I love. We will have a spiritual aspect as well at our wedding on Saturday, but it would be spiritual to me even if we went to the courthouse. 

@MagicInk, I look forward to the day when your relationship is viewed by law as equal to any other. You found love, and that's worth celebrating. I know that someday, all states will legalize marriage for you, and then we will look back on the past and view it as we do interracial marriage. It will seem so ridiculous that it was ever illegal in the first place. 

VulgarGirl

Molly&Domenic said:@MagicInk, I look forward to the day when your relationship is viewed by law as equal to any other. You found love, and that's worth celebrating. I know that someday, all states will legalize marriage for you, and then we will look back on the past and view it as we do interracial marriage. It will seem so ridiculous that it was ever illegal in the first place. 

Thank you. And I hope so too! My grandma was trying to explain to me how interracial marriage was illegal when she was young (this was many years back) and I just couldn't wrap my brain around the idea that there was a time someone gave a shit if skin pigments didn't match up the right way. I'm hoping my grandchildren (and their friends) have the same feeling about gay marriage.

MollyandD

MagicInk said:

Molly&Domenic said:@MagicInk, I look forward to the day when your relationship is viewed by law as equal to any other. You found love, and that's worth celebrating. I know that someday, all states will legalize marriage for you, and then we will look back on the past and view it as we do interracial marriage. It will seem so ridiculous that it was ever illegal in the first place. 

Thank you. And I hope so too! My grandma was trying to explain to me how interracial marriage was illegal when she was young (this was many years back) and I just couldn't wrap my brain around the idea that there was a time someone gave a shit if skin pigments didn't match up the right way. I'm hoping my grandchildren (and their friends) have the same feeling about gay marriage.

My dad's white sister married a black man, and my dad's dad was never ok with it. It's so sad that he couldn't see his little girl's happiness as a good thing. They have been married since long before I was born, and they are still very happy together. It's amazing that people ever would have cared about such a thing. 

That's how it will be someday for gay marriage too. It will seem so insane, even a little embarrassing, that we were ever so opposed to the happiness of others. 

PrettyGirlLost

Favouritecake said:

I have to politely share another opinion here. I got 'married' legally years before we had our wedding. It was for visa purposes. We knew we wanted to get married eventually but needed to fast track it in order to live in the same country. We literally signed a piece of paper at a court house, didn't even have rings or take one photo. We told no one and put it out of our minds that anything even happened - we wanted to downplay it as much as possible to save it for the real thing. We had our proper wedding last year and it felt just as if it was the first time. For us, getting married meant standing in front of your closest friends and family and vowing to spend forever together. It's announcing it to the world. A legally binding piece of paper doesn't do that, you do. I guess the difference with us was that no one knew but still, to each their own!

I'm assuming you wed your husband to stay in the US, or he we'd you to stay.

Holy shit. I know this is an old thread, but as a person who has a beloved relative in a foreign country and whose family is trying everything to be able to get her legal citizenship into this country, and has been for years, I just cannot even begin to articulate how absolutely fucking furious your post makes me, with it's total disregard for marriage and the citizenship process.

And your relatives are fucking morons if they didn't realize you are already married. . .How the hell else could you legally stay in this country for years?

Or you and your husband were fucking morons if you think your relatives are that dumb and didn't know you were lying to them.

Just remember that legally binding piece of paper you seem so glib about is the sole thing on this Earth that allowed you to stay in this country with your husband AND entitled you to all of the legal rights of naturalized citizenship.

PrettyGirlLost

CMGragain said:

There is a word for the practice of having a civil marriage for reasons of immigration, insurance, or military benefits, but not considering yourself to be "really married".  It is called FRAUD.

Yes, thank you.

MegEn1

You know whose fault this really is? The public education system. So many people came out of school not understanding the difference between 'wedding' 'reception' 'definition' and 'reality'. It's a mark against all of us, as a society, that things have gotten this bad. Still....

I cannot stop reading these.

MollyandD

MegEn1 said:

You know whose fault this really is? The public education system. So many people came out of school not understanding the difference between 'wedding' 'reception' 'definition' and 'reality'. It's a mark against all of us, as a society, that things have gotten this bad. Still....

I cannot stop reading these.

This is so incredibly offensive to me. I spend about 6 hours per day with my students, since they go other places for specials and lunch.  I don't go home with them. It pisses me off so bad that people blame me for not raising kids the right way. I'm not a parent, and education doesn't rest solely on teachers and schools. 

MegEn1

Molly&Domenic said:

MegEn1 said:

You know whose fault this really is? The public education system. So many people came out of school not understanding the difference between 'wedding' 'reception' 'definition' and 'reality'. It's a mark against all of us, as a society, that things have gotten this bad. Still....

I cannot stop reading these.

This is so incredibly offensive to me. I spend about 6 hours per day with my students, since they go other places for specials and lunch.  I don't go home with them. It pisses me off so bad that people blame me for not raising kids the right way. I'm not a parent, and education doesn't rest solely on teachers and schools. 

I mean no offense to teachers. Blaming the 'public education system' is a line I often use rather snarkily to refer to the fact that we, as a society, don't place enough value on our kids and our education system to make sure that the education children are getting is thorough. After seeing your post and realizing that you, and the community, don't know me and my humor from Adam, I really am sorry. I honestly meant no offense to you and to teachers/educations/librarians/hall monitors/etc. - my mother was at least two of those things. 

The line I use is basically meant to say "How do we, as a society, let something like this happen?!" 

If teachers were the only things that determined how good of an education a child got, we wouldn't really have much of a problem. 

Again, my apologies, and I am happy to discuss/apologize further off this thread. 

southernbelle0915

MegEn1 said:

You know whose fault this really is? The public education system. So many people came out of school not understanding the difference between 'wedding' 'reception' 'definition' and 'reality'. It's a mark against all of us, as a society, that things have gotten this bad. Still....

I cannot stop reading these.

lyndausvi

Seems complicated to be married when it suites you.    Even  more so when it comes to immigration then getting insurance.

"Wait? who are you?  Oh... yes immigration.  We absolutely feel like we are married.  See, here is all the paperwork showing we are a married couple.  Oh yeah, that FB post that says I'm not married.  Yeah, just ignore that."

"Auntie, is that you?   Yeah, FI is really lucky he has been able to stay in the country for so long without getting married.   Yeah, I'm not sure why cousin wasn't able to do the same? Ummm?".   

It's just all weird to me.

rnsoon

My boyfriend is deployed. We were discussing the impending engagement/future wedding via email the other day. I think I'm confusing because I talk about "getting married" but I'm thinking after the engagement and actual engagement period. He thinks I mean ring on finger, BAM get married right away. So he says "We can go to the courthouse then have a big shindig when we can afford it." I tried explaining to him how this was not ok, but he didn't get it, lol. Hopeless men! I will not let this happen, though. Fear not, Knotties!