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NWR: Hobby Lobby Case

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Re: NWR: Hobby Lobby Case

  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its
    kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Because they are put on earth to SAVE those SINNERS.  Duh.   If I don't give you BC pills or no one will employee those gays they will stop sinning and start leading a pure life. If you start living a pure life then you are allowed back into heaven. 

      Didn't you know that?








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  • kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
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    chibiyui
  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers

    kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
    Interesting.  I hadn't heard of that yet.

    I guess my big question is, why contraceptives?  There are other medical issues that aren't so controversial.  Why didn't the ACA require that all preventative optometry care or all preventative dental care be covered with no copay?  Those are things that everyone needs and, to the best of my knowledge, offends nobody.

  • kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.

    SITB:  In the majority opinion in the HL case, their solution was for the government to pick up the tab on the 4 contraceptives HL doesn't want to offer. So in the end, we all (including the Green family) are paying for it! 

  • kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.

    SITB: I understand that reasoning, but then if that's the case, HL shouldn't use 401k funds to invest in pharmaceutical companies that manufacture abortion drugs. Nor should they import so much of their crap from China, where abortions are forced upon women. Otherwise, it just makes them sound hypocritical.

  • kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
    Interesting.  I hadn't heard of that yet.

    I guess my big question is, why contraceptives?  There are other medical issues that aren't so controversial.  Why didn't the ACA require that all preventative optometry care or all preventative dental care be covered with no copay?  Those are things that everyone needs and, to the best of my knowledge, offends nobody.
    I think that's a good question. I think a lot of it probably has to do with how prohibitively expensive the health industry is as a whole in the US. If you count your pennies, you can go get your vision checked and buy glasses without breaking the bank, and some people have 20/20 vision and never need it. I think if you're smart and get preventative dental care regularly, a cleaning isn't even horribly expensive (though I could be wrong on that, and if you need any serious dental work done, god help you, because it's unbelievably expensive.) On the other hand, my fiance nearly cut part of his finger off a few weekends ago, and we just got a bill (that insurance is mostly covering) of ~$1500 for two stitches.
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  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its

    kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
    some non-profits are already exempt.  Employees can purchase coverage from a 3rd party, including using the exchange (I believe).   I think they are saying these for-profits might have the same option.






    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers

    kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
    Interesting.  I hadn't heard of that yet.

    I guess my big question is, why contraceptives?  There are other medical issues that aren't so controversial.  Why didn't the ACA require that all preventative optometry care or all preventative dental care be covered with no copay?  Those are things that everyone needs and, to the best of my knowledge, offends nobody.
    This is where I start losing my shit. There ought to be nothing controversial here. Contraceptives are a basic part of women's preventive healthcare.

    If you have personal objections that's not my business. But there should zero controversy.

    Like it or not, there are religions that have major objections to them.  And this isn't something we just came up with.  The Catholic church has always had a moral objection to contraceptives. 
  • lyndausvi said:

    kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
    some non-profits are already exempt.  Employees can purchase coverage from a 3rd party, including using the exchange (I believe).   I think they are saying these for-profits might have the same option.
    Nonprofits are probably exempt because they don't pay taxes.
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    ashley8918
  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers

    kat1114 said:
    I don't understand all the trouble conservative christians go through to fight things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If those things are truly horrible horrible sins that God hates, and those people are going to hell, then what's the point of all the fighting now?! Aren't they going to hell anyways?
    Maybe I can offer a perspective.  Regarding the contraceptive aspects, it's a matter of keeping those of us who object to it out of it.  I don't know if you saw my earlier posts, but the main objection is the fact that employers who have religious objections to contraception don't want to pay for it for anyone.  I know plenty of people who use birth control (and, no, I don't necessarily think they are going to hell).  That alone doesn't bother me.  If a friend asks me to go pick up her Yaz at the pharmacy, then I would politely decline since I don't want to be a part of it.

    I hope that helps.
    If the rumors I'm hearing about them finding a federal workaround to Hobby Lobby's exemption are true, pretty soon we'll all be paying for it anyway.
    Interesting.  I hadn't heard of that yet.

    I guess my big question is, why contraceptives?  There are other medical issues that aren't so controversial.  Why didn't the ACA require that all preventative optometry care or all preventative dental care be covered with no copay?  Those are things that everyone needs and, to the best of my knowledge, offends nobody.
    I think that's a good question. I think a lot of it probably has to do with how prohibitively expensive the health industry is as a whole in the US. If you count your pennies, you can go get your vision checked and buy glasses without breaking the bank, and some people have 20/20 vision and never need it. I think if you're smart and get preventative dental care regularly, a cleaning isn't even horribly expensive (though I could be wrong on that, and if you need any serious dental work done, god help you, because it's unbelievably expensive.) On the other hand, my fiance nearly cut part of his finger off a few weekends ago, and we just got a bill (that insurance is mostly covering) of ~$1500 for two stitches.
    Just playing devil's advocate here ... the argument can be made that dental and optometry care are needed for both men and women.

    I did a quick Google search and found this (healthcare.utah.edu/moran/patient_care/optometry/eyes_checked.php)

    People ages 20 to 30 should have an eye exam every two years, unless visual changes, pain, flashes of light, new floaters, injury, or tearing occurs. Then, immediate care is necessary.

    Yearly exams become important in the late thirties when changes in vision and focus along with eye diseases are more likely to develop.

    And, I worked in a dental office on & off most of my life (my uncle is a dentist).  The preventative care visits add up, especially when you consider x-rays.


    Again - it was just a general thought.


  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
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    chibiyui said:
    Word. My health care is not and should not be a part of your moral debate. You think it's a sin, don't do it. Don't make it harder on me because you disagree with it.

    It became a part of our moral debate when the government mandated that we pay for it.  (and I know that comes off bitchier than I mean it; I'm just clarifying)
    emmaaa
  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    chibiyui said:
    Word. My health care is not and should not be a part of your moral debate. You think it's a sin, don't do it. Don't make it harder on me because you disagree with it.

    It became a part of our moral debate when the government mandated that we pay for it.  (and I know that comes off bitchier than I mean it; I'm just clarifying)
    I guess that would explain why they covered IUDs until they didn't. It doesn't really explain why it's okay for them to buy so much stuff from China, where women are forced to have abortions.
    My understanding is that they never covered IUDs (nor Plan B or Ella).  I do agree that their purchases from China are concerning.  IMO, they have been inconsistent with which products to cover and haven't had the cleanest record. 
  • chibiyui said:
    Word. My health care is not and should not be a part of your moral debate. You think it's a sin, don't do it. Don't make it harder on me because you disagree with it.

    It became a part of our moral debate when the government mandated that we pay for it.  (and I know that comes off bitchier than I mean it; I'm just clarifying)
    I guess that would explain why they covered IUDs until they didn't. It doesn't really explain why it's okay for them to buy so much stuff from China, where women are forced to have abortions.
    Or why they invest in companies that sell those awful abortion pills....
  • And with regards to the comments about why the ACA doesn't cover dental and vision care, it does for those under 19...

    "Under the law, children under age 19 will be able to get their teeth cleaned twice a year, as well as receive X-rays, fillings and medically necessary orthodontia. In addition, children under age 19 will be entitled to an eye exam and one pair of glasses or set of contact lenses a year. Relatively few health plans cover children's dental or vision services today."
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  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    kat1114 said:
    And with regards to the comments about why the ACA doesn't cover dental and vision care, it does for those under 19...

    "Under the law, children under age 19 will be able to get their teeth cleaned twice a year, as well as receive X-rays, fillings and medically necessary orthodontia. In addition, children under age 19 will be entitled to an eye exam and one pair of glasses or set of contact lenses a year. Relatively few health plans cover children's dental or vision services today."
    oh, cool - I didn't realize that.  I guess it sucks when they turn 20 and have to pay more.

    I wasn't being specific to dental / optometry ... I was just speaking of medical needs that nobody has a moral objection to.
  • JCbride2015JCbride2015 Dirty Jerz member
    5000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary First Answer
    kat1114 said:




    kat1114 said:

    And with regards to the comments about why the ACA doesn't cover dental and vision care, it does for those under 19...

    "Under the law, children under age 19 will be able to get their teeth cleaned twice a year, as well as receive X-rays, fillings and medically necessary orthodontia. In addition, children under age 19 will be entitled to an eye exam and one pair of glasses or set of contact lenses a year. Relatively few health plans cover children's dental or vision services today."

    oh, cool - I didn't realize that.  I guess it sucks when they turn 20 and have to pay more.

    I wasn't being specific to dental / optometry ... I was just speaking of medical needs that nobody has a moral objection to.

    You're right. Laws should only include things that no one has a moral objection to. I'm sure that will be effective.

    Perfect solution. Let's do this shit by unanimous popular vote!

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    "I'm not a rude bitch.  I'm ten rude bitches in a large coat."

    kat1114chibiyui
  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    kat1114 said:
    And with regards to the comments about why the ACA doesn't cover dental and vision care, it does for those under 19...

    "Under the law, children under age 19 will be able to get their teeth cleaned twice a year, as well as receive X-rays, fillings and medically necessary orthodontia. In addition, children under age 19 will be entitled to an eye exam and one pair of glasses or set of contact lenses a year. Relatively few health plans cover children's dental or vision services today."
    oh, cool - I didn't realize that.  I guess it sucks when they turn 20 and have to pay more.

    I wasn't being specific to dental / optometry ... I was just speaking of medical needs that nobody has a moral objection to.
    That isn't actually a thing that exists. Christian Scientists believe in faith healing and have a "moral objection" to all medical intervention. Why is your moral objection more valid than theirs?
    Honest questions - Have they filed suit?  Does their faith object to providing medical intervention for others?
  • brideofgingerbrideofginger member
    10 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited July 2014
    kat1114 said:
    And with regards to the comments about why the ACA doesn't cover dental and vision care, it does for those under 19...

    "Under the law, children under age 19 will be able to get their teeth cleaned twice a year, as well as receive X-rays, fillings and medically necessary orthodontia. In addition, children under age 19 will be entitled to an eye exam and one pair of glasses or set of contact lenses a year. Relatively few health plans cover children's dental or vision services today."
    oh, cool - I didn't realize that.  I guess it sucks when they turn 20 and have to pay more.

    I wasn't being specific to dental / optometry ... I was just speaking of medical needs that nobody has a moral objection to.
    That isn't actually a thing that exists. Christian Scientists believe in faith healing and have a "moral objection" to all medical intervention. Why is your moral objection more valid than theirs?
    Honest questions - Have they filed suit?  Does their faith object to providing medical intervention for others?
    I'm guessing it's only a matter of time. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/06/30/after-hobby-lobby-these-77-corporations-will-drop-birth-control-coverage.html And by that logic, I guess Hobby Lobby's faith compels them to object to medical intervention.
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  • lyndausvilyndausvi Western Slope, Colorado mod
    Moderator Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its
    kat1114 said:
    And with regards to the comments about why the ACA doesn't cover dental and vision care, it does for those under 19...

    "Under the law, children under age 19 will be able to get their teeth cleaned twice a year, as well as receive X-rays, fillings and medically necessary orthodontia. In addition, children under age 19 will be entitled to an eye exam and one pair of glasses or set of contact lenses a year. Relatively few health plans cover children's dental or vision services today."
    oh, cool - I didn't realize that.  I guess it sucks when they turn 20 and have to pay more.

    I wasn't being specific to dental / optometry ... I was just speaking of medical needs that nobody has a moral objection to.
    That isn't actually a thing that exists. Christian Scientists believe in faith healing and have a "moral objection" to all medical intervention. Why is your moral objection more valid than theirs?
    Honest questions - Have they filed suit?  Does their faith object to providing medical intervention for others?


    *** SITB***

    They didn't have to.  Holly Lobby and Conestoga Woods did it for them.  If they won CS benefit, if they lost they know the answer.  Either way they didn't have put out the funds to find out.








    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
  • holyguacamole79holyguacamole79 a taco truck in Houston member
    5000 Comments Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    But do Christian Scientists oppose medical coverage for other people?  I honestly don't know much about their faith.
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