Catholic in religious identity crisis effecting ceremony decision

kavo0406

Hi all, 
I am in the midst of planning my 2015 wedding and have hit a wall.  I am a baptized Roman Catholic and my fiance is not baptized at all.  
As of right now I do not regularly attend mass and neither does he, as I am in kind of a religious identity crisis.
 I am wanting an outdoor ceremony, but the Catholic church says no.  I am unsure why as there are Catholic churches who celebrate mass outside.  (any guidance or opinions on "why" are welcome) 
We are looking to have a non-denominational ceremony outside and then later, if we decide to be Catholic and raise our kids Catholic, we are going to get it blessed. Has any heard of someone getting their marriage blessed post-wedding, and if they did, was their wedding a civil service or was it a religious service? and what "hoops" did they need to jump through to get it done? 

Maggie0829

I am not very good with all the ins and outs of the "rules" when it comes to Catholic ceremonies.  I say I am a Catholic (because that is the religion I was raised with) but never go to church and certainly don't follow everything Catholics believe.

So with that said, I believe the reason that Catholic ceremonies cannot be held out side of the church is because canon law states that the wedding ceremony ceremony is to be celebrated within the parish church.  This article helps to really explain things...http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2012/01/why-do-catholics-have-to-get-married-in-church/

If you wish to have your marriage recognized by your church after the wedding then you need to have a convalidation ceremony...CLICK

southernbelle0915

kaivolk said:

Hi all, 
I am in the midst of planning my 2015 wedding and have hit a wall.  I am a baptized Roman Catholic and my fiance is not baptized at all.  
As of right now I do not regularly attend mass and neither does he, as I am in kind of a religious identity crisis.
 I am wanting an outdoor ceremony, but the Catholic church says no.  I am unsure why as there are Catholic churches who celebrate mass outside.  (any guidance or opinions on "why" are welcome) 
We are looking to have a non-denominational ceremony outside and then later, if we decide to be Catholic and raise our kids Catholic, we are going to get it blessed. Has any heard of someone getting their marriage blessed post-wedding, and if they did, was their wedding a civil service or was it a religious service? and what "hoops" did they need to jump through to get it done? 

I think you need to do some soul searching on how much it means to you to get married in a Catholic church. I'm not even sure all the consequences of not doing so (other Knotties?) but my understanding is that you can't take communion anymore, etc. I'm pretty sure getting a convalidation (what you refer to as "blessed") is not easy at all. Plus the Church isn't going to be like "Oh, you wanted to get married outside instead of having a Catholic wedding and now want to get it blessed? Sure! No problem!" They'll probably be like, "Yea... religious priorities. You don't have them."

I just think you need to be willing to accept that you may not be able to get a convalidation if you choose to get married outside. It might happen if you're lucky, but it might not.

Consider a compromise. What if you do a Catholic wedding and then have your reception outside? 

kavo0406

As I stated, I am in a religious identity crisis (I'm pretty sure most people go through one at some point of their life...I know most of my family did) 
You also read my post wrong...I said that IF we decide Catholic is the way we wanted to go then what is the road to getting it "blessed"
I have a friend who had a civil ceremony and found a priest do to the convalidation afterwards, but her sister-in-law had a harder time finding one.  
I believe in God and and Jesus and everything I just don't want to be married Catholic right now if I can't promise that I am going to raise my kids Catholic.  So wouldn't it be better if I did the non-denominational religious ceremony and then once I decide what I'm doing religion wise, get it validated in the church? 
My fiance is NOT religious at all (he believes in God, but not the politics of religion), so this rests solely on me.

kavo0406

Thank you Maggie0829, your links helped clarify some things. 

holyguacamole79

kaivolk said:

As I stated, I am in a religious identity crisis (I'm pretty sure most people go through one at some point of their life...I know most of my family did) 
You also read my post wrong...I said that IF we decide Catholic is the way we wanted to go then what is the road to getting it "blessed"
I have a friend who had a civil ceremony and found a priest do to the convalidation afterwards, but her sister-in-law had a harder time finding one.  
I believe in God and and Jesus and everything I just don't want to be married Catholic right now if I can't promise that I am going to raise my kids Catholic.  So wouldn't it be better if I did the non-denominational religious ceremony and then once I decide what I'm doing religion wise, get it validated in the church? 
My fiance is NOT religious at all (he believes in God, but not the politics of religion), so this rests solely on me.

Hi!  Maggie's article is spot on (and Deacon Kandra is a very legit source). 

Since your FI is not baptized, I think that would add another dimension to the convalidation (if you decide that's what you want).  Also, Southernbelle is spot-on.  If you choose to marry in a non-denominational setting, you will no longer be in communion in the Catholic Church.  You would not be able to receive the Eucharist, nor would you be able to serve as a Godparent or Confirmation sponsor.

You didn't specify in your OP - is this the first marriage for you & FI?  If there are previous marriages (that didn't end in death), then that will also make things more difficult for a convalidation.

Good luck!

kavo0406

sarahbear31 - this is the first marriage for both of us. What happens if I'm already both a Godparent AND a confirmation sponsor? Since I don't attend mass except for Christmas and Easter, and a few random times in between I'm already not able to take communion (since I miss mass out of my own free will) and I also live with my fiance. Do you think that it would be more difficult to recieve convalidation since he is not, nor will he ever, be baptized?

holyguacamole79

I'm honestly not sure, @kaivolk.  I have some friends who went through a convalildation a few years ago, and I know it took extra long because he had to have his previous marriage annulled.  I'm not sure about convalidation vs marriage, but my understanding for a marriage between a Catholic and a non-baptized person, there needs to be a dispensation (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-a-baptized-catholic-marries-a-non-baptized-person-is-that-a-valid-marriage).  For a marriage, this dispensation should be easy.  I would imagine it would be so for a convalidation. 

I think there's something big to consider, though:  You want that door to still be open for the future. What is holding you up right now:  the outdoor wedding or your religious identity crisis?  If it's the outdoor wedding and you're looking to seek approval rather than permission, then things will likely be a bit more challenging.  But if your main reasons for questioning is because of your identity  crisis, then I highly doubt any priest / deacon will give you grief about it down the road.  People go through this all the time (as you said). 

What does your FI think?

Regarding the Godparent / Confirmation sponsor -  you already are one, so that can never be taken away from you.  But, if you were to proceed with this wedding, then you would not be able to be considered for this in the future until your marraige is convalidated..  I hope that helps. 

CMGragain

OP, all you have to do right now to be able to receive communion is to go to confession and do penance.
If you get married outside of the Catholic Church, that is quite different.  Going to confession will not solve that problem.  You are risking never being able to practice your Catholic faith again!  Your children will be welcome, but you will have to explain to them why Mommy can't take the sacrament.
You should talk to your priest ASAP and find out what you have to do to get married in the Catholic Church.  You will need to go to pre-cana classes.
Is it really more important to you to have an outdoor wedding than to be a practicing Catholic?  I don't understand this at all!

kavo0406

CMGragain - as I have stated I am going through a religious identity crisis. I am unsure if I will continue being Roman Catholic or convert to another Christian based religion.  I know the route of what I'd have to do right now to receive communion; however, I cannot go to confession knowing that I am not truly sorry and that I will not go back to what I was doing.  
I know that I run the risk of it not being convalidated , but I also know that there is a large chance that I'd be able to get it convalidated later down the road if that is something I chose to seek after. 
I know exactly what I need to do to get married in the church, but as I stated earlier, I do not want to go that route NOT because I want an outdoor ceremony BUT because I do not want to make empty promises to the church.
I am looking for opinions more on the convalidation than the outdoor wedding part.

holyguacamole79

@kaivolk, I honestly don't think you'll have too much of an issue obtaining a convalidation if that's the route you take eventually. The Church cannot deny a sacrament (unless you have an impediment such as a prior marriage, which you don't). I wish you all the best in your discernment. Check with your local parish to see if there is an RCIA program you can "audit". This is a great environment for you to ask questions and seek where you belong.

CMGragain

kaivolk said:

CMGragain - as I have stated I am going through a religious identity crisis. I am unsure if I will continue being Roman Catholic or convert to another Christian based religion.  I know the route of what I'd have to do right now to receive communion; however, I cannot go to confession knowing that I am not truly sorry and that I will not go back to what I was doing.  
I know that I run the risk of it not being convalidated , but I also know that there is a large chance that I'd be able to get it convalidated later down the road if that is something I chose to seek after. 
I know exactly what I need to do to get married in the church, but as I stated earlier, I do not want to go that route NOT because I want an outdoor ceremony BUT because I do not want to make empty promises to the church.
I am looking for opinions more on the convalidation than the outdoor wedding part.

Convalidations are very difficult to get.  I am going to repeat my advice to you to go and talk to a priest before making a decision that you might regret.
If you are looking for an accepting Christian church where you can continue your Catholic beliefs, you might try the United Methodist Church.  You can keep all of your beliefs and still be part of the congregation there.  We have many former Catholics who have left the Catholic church and have found a home with us.  The UMC does not tell you what you have to believe, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior.
My mother died last October.  I had to call her ex-husband and tell him that after 40 years, he could be a practicing Catholic again.  He had two civil marriages after their civil divorce, but never an annulment.  Since both of his subsequent marriages also ended in divorce, at the age of 90, he can reconcile with the church, now that he is technically a widower.  No, he wasn't welcome at the funeral.

holyguacamole79

CMGragain said:

kaivolk said:

CMGragain - as I have stated I am going through a religious identity crisis. I am unsure if I will continue being Roman Catholic or convert to another Christian based religion.  I know the route of what I'd have to do right now to receive communion; however, I cannot go to confession knowing that I am not truly sorry and that I will not go back to what I was doing.  
I know that I run the risk of it not being convalidated , but I also know that there is a large chance that I'd be able to get it convalidated later down the road if that is something I chose to seek after. 
I know exactly what I need to do to get married in the church, but as I stated earlier, I do not want to go that route NOT because I want an outdoor ceremony BUT because I do not want to make empty promises to the church.
I am looking for opinions more on the convalidation than the outdoor wedding part.

Convalidations are very difficult to get.  I am going to repeat my advice to you to go and talk to a priest before making a decision that you might regret.
If you are looking for an accepting Christian church where you can continue your Catholic beliefs, you might try the United Methodist Church.  You can keep all of your beliefs and still be part of the congregation there.  We have many former Catholics who have left the Catholic church and have found a home with us.  The UMC does not tell you what you have to believe, as long as you accept Jesus as your savior.
My mother died last October.  I had to call her ex-husband and tell him that after 40 years, he could be a practicing Catholic again.  He had two civil marriages after their civil divorce, but never an annulment.  Since both of his subsequent marriages also ended in divorce, at the age of 90, he can reconcile with the church, now that he is technically a widower.  No, he wasn't welcome at the funeral.

No offense, @cmgragain, but a Catholic cannot continue their beliefs fully in the UMC. The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Catholic faith, and that is not celebrated in the Mefhodist church. Yes, I understand that there is Communion, but it is not the same.

 And I'm sorry for what happened to your mothers ex-husband. I have NEVER heard of a person denied attendance to a Catholic funeral because of the circumstances you reference. I'm not claiming that you are lying. I have just experienced the exact opposite. My brother married outside of the Catholic Church. When my grandfather passed away, there was absolutely NO issue with him and his wife attending the funeral Mass.

 Considering that the OP is soul-searching, I honestly do not know of a single priest who would not be willing to work with them (if they so desire) to obtain a convalidation. The only hiccup may come from the fact that her FI is not baptized. 

 Here's some more information: http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/feb2004/feature2.asp http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu390.htm 

 See the following: In the eyes of the Catholic Church, a couple who has married outside of the Church, it has entered into an invalid marriage. To remedy the situation, the couple must present itself as a couple to the parish priest. It needs to demonstrate that it entered into the non-canonical marriage without malice or deception. Both individuals must show that they are penitent of their misunderstanding and misdeed and that they desire the bond that “by its very nature is perpetual and exclusive” and through which they are “strengthened and, as it were, consecrated for the duties and dignity of their state by a special sacrament” (Canon # 1134). If the priest believes the intention of the couple, he then has the right and ability to dispense the “canonical form” and validate the marriage, bringing it into proper validity and liceity (being licit) with the Roman Catholic Church.

CMGragain

1.  My own family is not Catholic.  My mother had a Catholic wedding when she married the SOB.
2.  I took my step-siblings to Catholic Mass quite often.  I am very aware of the religious differences, which is WHY I was trying to persuade OP to talk to her priest and to be married in the church.  She doesn't seem to want this.  I still think that this would be her best option.  Counting on a convalidation, which may or may not be granted, at some future date is risky.
3.  Neither my late mother nor any family member wanted to see the SOB at her funeral.  It was a private service, and not Catholic.  Mother never converted.
4.  Holy Communion IS a sacrament in the United Methodist Church.  Just because the Catholic Church does not recognize it as such does not make it any less of a sacrament for those Christians who participate.  The UMC has three sacraments:  baptism, communion (eucharist) and confirmation.  The Catholic church has seven.
Clear thing up for you?  I have great respect for the Catholic church.

holyguacamole79

I also agree that OP should talk to a priest, which is why I suggested sitting in on an RCIA class to inquire and search.

 Regarding Communion / Eucharist, Catholics recognize and respect that other Christian denominations practice Communion. The difference is this - Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the body, soul, blood, and divinity of Jesus Christ. The Methodists believe that the bread and wine are a symbol. (At least, that's what I read here - http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/do-united-methodists-believe-the-communion-elements). This is a HUGE difference. So, with all due respect - a Catholic worshipping in the UMC is not continuing the Catholic beliefs. 

 Also, thanks for the clarification regarding your mothers funeral.

photokitty

Like you, when I married DH, I was having an religious identity crisis stemming from my annulment. I chose not to marry in the Catholic church for that reason and bc DH, who is not Catholic, would need an annulment. After the fact my priest has on several occasions said he would happily give us a consolidation, should DH decide to get his first marriage annulled. Some parish priests are strict on granting convalidations, others are not.

I am already a godmother and confirmation sponsor and have never been told this was an issue. Some priests only require one of the two godparents to be in good Catholic standing.

CMGragain

I am very aware of the difference.  It is the reason that I did NOT convert to Catholicism.  Different does not mean less important.  The communion is the most holy, sacred rite of the Methodist church.  For you to belittle it is offensive.
Catholics are welcome to continue any religious practices they choose in the UMC.  Our church does not dictate beliefs.  I do think it is better that they stay in good standing with the Catholic church, though.  Much easier for the children.

holyguacamole79

CMGragain said:

I am very aware opf the difference.  It is the reason that I did NOT convert to Catholicism.  Different does not mean less important.  The communion is the most holy, sacred rite of the Methodist church.  For you to belittle it is offensive.

You are reading more into what I said. I never said that one is better than another, but that they are, in fact, different. The only point I was making was in reference to your statement that a Catholic can worship with the UMC and still maintain the same Catholic beliefs. There is a fundamental difference in what the churches believe regarding Communion, which means that a Catholic would not fully be able to practice his/her faith in the UMC. That's all.

CMGragain

I'm not upset by your post.  I had quite a religious upbringing, especially considering my mother was not religious at all!  I had to do her funeral service myself.  The minister she wanted refused! 
One of the most powerful religious experiences I've ever had was in the visitor's chapel at the Vatican.  It was overwhelming.

holyguacamole79

Gotcha - I got the feeling that I had somehow offended you. I have been to Rome once, but I was not able to make it inside the Vatican. I dream of going back and seeing it.

 How are you feeling, btw?

southernbelle0915

OP I certainly don't know you but if you don't really care about attending church and your husband isn't catholic and doesn't really care about attending church, I'm betting you don't raise your kids to be Catholic.

DH is Catholic. I'm Methodist. DH did lot of soul searching and we ended up deciding to get married outside.

Eta: obviously that's a major cliff notes version and the decision is very personal. But my point is that he did the soul searching. You should too. Maybe you'll come to the same conclusion he came to, maybe not. I agree with talking to a priest first to get the religious side of the story. And talk your feelings through with your FI.

CMGragain

I hope God decides to pick on somebody else for a while!  I had a two-hour MRI today.  The tumor is still behind my eye, but it is much smaller.  We'll try again next month.  Sigh!

holyguacamole79

Ugh. Praying for you!

Marzipan13

OP, a little insight:

Catholic Mass that takes place outside is allowed to happen because there is an Altar blessed in a certain way, and there is a Tabernacle for the reposition of the Eucharist.  If you wanted to get married "outside" in a park or a garden, these spaces have not been consecrated - that is why the RCC will not allow people getting married outside; this is different than holding an outdoor Mass (the circumstances are different).

If you get married somewhere / somehow besides in the Catholic Church, you can get your marriage validated at a later point.  This is a process and takes some time, however - you'll have to meet with the priest at your parish, and some paperwork will have to be done.  

In the meantime, your marriage outside of the church will be considered "invalid".  This will only have its consequences if you are asked to be a Godparent for a Catholic baptism or sponsor for Confirmation (one must be married validly under Canon Law, if married).  A validation will render the marriage valid, of course, and becoming a Godparent would be allowed then.
[You mentioned you are already a Godparent & sponsor - if you are a Godparent & sponsor for a Catholic baptism and Confirmation, you would have been asked some questions - or at least been asked if you affirm some things - regarding attending Mass regularly and receiving the Eucharist regularly.  Your status as a Godparent is unchanging, but I would seriously consider the implications of being a Godparent, etc.)

All in all, I agree with PPs - do some soul-searching.  If you are not truly committed to going the RCC-wedding route, do not get married in the RCC.  Simple as that.

OliveOilsMom

I agree with the advice that you should try to audit some RCIA classes or speak to a priest about any questions you may be having about your "religious identity crisis".  Maybe talking out the questions in your head with someone vastly knowledgeable about the Catholic faith will help you in making your decision.

I also think that you would not have a problem getting a convalidation later on, if you want one.  Basically a convalidation is for a person who has lost their way with the church, but wants to come back to it.  When you come back to it, you would need to "make-up" any sacraments, one of which could be marriage.  Since you are honestly having religious doubts, it would make great sense to not marry in the church now.  You would just need to explain to your priest that you were having doubts about your religion previously, but now want to come back 100%.  I don't see a priest denying a convalidation in that context.  The context you indicated for your SILs was that they wanted the beautiful outdoor ceremony for pictures, not because they were having religious doubts, which is why your 1 SIL had problems finding a priest for a convalidation.

[Deleted User]

I don't know if this helps, but I am being married by an Independent Catholic priest at my reception venue. He is able to do a full mass with Eucharist, but it's open eucharist so everyone can partake. It won't be recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

holyguacamole79

tristes said:

I don't know if this helps, but I am being married by an Independent Catholic priest at my reception venue. He is able to do a full mass with Eucharist, but it's open eucharist so everyone can partake. It won't be recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm genuinely curious (and not passing judgement).  Why are you taking this route?

MobKaz

sarahbear31 said:

tristes said:

I don't know if this helps, but I am being married by an Independent Catholic priest at my reception venue. He is able to do a full mass with Eucharist, but it's open eucharist so everyone can partake. It won't be recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm genuinely curious (and not passing judgement).  Why are you taking this route?

I'm curious as well.  The Catholic Church does not have any "independent priests".  I understand wanting a religious ceremony, but regardless of who officiates, it is meaningless in the eyes of the Catholic Church.  He may be performing something that resembles a Mass, and offering a communion of some sort, but he is NOT offering a Mass nor is he offering the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. 

[Deleted User]

MobKaz said:

sarahbear31 said:

tristes said:

I don't know if this helps, but I am being married by an Independent Catholic priest at my reception venue. He is able to do a full mass with Eucharist, but it's open eucharist so everyone can partake. It won't be recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm genuinely curious (and not passing judgement).  Why are you taking this route?

I'm curious as well.  The Catholic Church does not have any "independent priests".  I understand wanting a religious ceremony, but regardless of who officiates, it is meaningless in the eyes of the Catholic Church.  He may be performing something that resembles a Mass, and offering a communion of some sort, but he is NOT offering a Mass nor is he offering the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. 

The Roman Catholic Church does not have "independent priests," you are correct. Our priest is part of the Franciscan Community of Mercy, part of the National Catholic Church. He will be performing a Mass and we will have Eucharist, and our wedding will not be "meaningless" in the eyes of our Catholic church, independent from the RCC.

[Deleted User]

sarahbear31 said:

tristes said:

I don't know if this helps, but I am being married by an Independent Catholic priest at my reception venue. He is able to do a full mass with Eucharist, but it's open eucharist so everyone can partake. It won't be recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm genuinely curious (and not passing judgement).  Why are you taking this route?

My fiance and I are baptized Roman Catholic and while exploring what kind of ceremony we really wanted, found that a marriage in the RCC didn't fit our beliefs. After we found an independent Catholic church we knew we found the place where we belonged. The physical church is over an hour away from our reception and our priest is traveling to us.

MobKaz

tristes said:

MobKaz said:

sarahbear31 said:

tristes said:

I don't know if this helps, but I am being married by an Independent Catholic priest at my reception venue. He is able to do a full mass with Eucharist, but it's open eucharist so everyone can partake. It won't be recognized by the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm genuinely curious (and not passing judgement).  Why are you taking this route?

I'm curious as well.  The Catholic Church does not have any "independent priests".  I understand wanting a religious ceremony, but regardless of who officiates, it is meaningless in the eyes of the Catholic Church.  He may be performing something that resembles a Mass, and offering a communion of some sort, but he is NOT offering a Mass nor is he offering the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. 

The Roman Catholic Church does not have "independent priests," you are correct. Our priest is part of the Franciscan Community of Mercy, part of the National Catholic Church. He will be performing a Mass and we will have Eucharist, and our wedding will not be "meaningless" in the eyes of our Catholic church, independent from the RCC.

I can only speak to the information you provide.  YOU stated you were baptized Roman Catholic, and then referred only to Catholic in the remainder of your post.  With that information, what you planned would be meaningless in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church.  At no point did you say you were referring to the National Catholic Church, which is an expression outside the RCC and the Vatican.