Questions from a non-Catholic about a Catholic ceromony

holyguacamole79

jellybeann!

lightningsnow

OP, BF and I have discussed marriage a lot since pretty much the first year we were together. He was raised Catholic while I was only baptized a Catholic. I'm not a religious person and the Catholic Church's stance on a lot of issues rubs me the wrong way. We've discussed getting married in the Church and how important it is for him and his family. He doesn't regularly attend Mass and really only goes for weddings and funerals. Since his father passed away last year, he attends a Mass monthly with his mother around the monthly anniversary of his father's passing. I prefer not going and he understands that.

I originally thought he only wanted to marry in the Church to appease his mother. He laid that to rest quickly. It's important for him. We've discussed raising our children in the religion. I don't agree 100% with doing so but I did tell him our children should have the option of choosing if they wish to follow the religion.

Again, we aren't engaged yet nor planning for a wedding any time soon. I firmly believe these issues should be discussed prior to getting engaged or planning a wedding so you are on the same page. That's my own opinion in this matter.

JaxInBlue

twitterbird said:

Another option might be to have a civil ceremony and get a convalidation after. My basic understanding is that you get your marriage blessed in church and then they recognize it. I don't know much more than that or if its hard to get. Just a thought.

A convalidation can be a heck of a lot harder to "get."  You're asked questioned about why you didn't get married in the Church in the first place, so unless you are both converts to Catholicism, it's not a guarantee that you will be approved.

DH and I had thought we asked for a post-wedding blessing of our marriage with his parent's priest; nope, not an option - it was convalidation.  We had to do pre-cana, the FOCUS survey, the survey counseling, the marital investigation.  And justify why we weren't good Catholics getting married in the Church in the first place.  (It wasn't a complicated answer - my parents both left the Church under less than pleasant circumstances; my dad because he's gay and my mom because when she and dad divorced, she refused to out him and took the blame for ending their marriage.)

OP, I concur with those suggesting your FI talk to his priest.  It's far easier, if you are able to accept the tenets of Catholic marriage vows and what those mean for your relationship, to have your marriage celebration as the Sacrament of Marriage.

ETA: words

JBee85

jellybeann said:

While the stuff about children is not in the actual vows, there is a statement of intentions right before the vows that I believe is standard in all churches. This part explicitly asks about children, saying: 

"(Name) and (name), have you come here freely and without reservation to give yourselves to each other in marriage?"

"Will you honor each other as man and wife for the rest of your lives?"

"Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?"

And you have to answer "yes" or "I will" to each of those. So you will definitely be asked about children during your ceremony.

Statement of intentions... That's what I meant. Thanks!

JBee85

Amarantineyes said:

Thank you so much for all the replies.

My fiance is on board with the whole no-kids thing (we've talked about it extensively before, and I check in with him every so often to make sure that he's still okay with it). So yeah, I don't quite understand the desire for a sacrament that we'll have to lie about to get.

I definitely plan on talking with him more about why this is important to him, but I think the majority of it is that it was a big part of his childhood (he went to Catholic schools his whole life) and it's part of his identity, even though he no longer attends Mass.

I do feel uncomfortable about all the lying by omission I would be doing in the talks with the priest which again, I will definitely talk with him about.

You shouldn't have to lie to a priest just for marriage. If you do, this may not be the right ceremony for the two of you.
I wanted to share this link as to why Catholics do not acknowledge civil marriage and why they would ask couples to refrain from partaking in the Eucharist: http://catholicweddinghelp.com/questions/civil-ceremony-first.htm
Here's another link about not attending regular mass and how you may not get approved for a catholic ceremony: http://catholicweddinghelp.com/questions/What-if-I-do-not-attend-Mass.htm
I will tell you... Being a Catholic bride... There is a LOT of preparation that goes into getting approved for a Catholic ceremony that my fiancé and I almost didn't go through with it. I strongly suggest you use the links and do some research on the expectations and rules of Catholic wedding ceremony and decide if this is what you both want.

holyguacamole79

sarahufl said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.

I just wanted to comment on these two points.

1.)  It's not that the church doesn't condone artificial birth control - it is a grave sin. Most priests I know are "don't ask, don't tell" types, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still, according to church teaching, considered a sin.
2.)  The "strings" you refer to are the same whether the wedding is in a Mass or a marriage rite without a Mass. 

APDSS22

I would definitely have a discussion with your FI on why he so adamantly wants to be married in a faith he is not currently practicing.  My husband and I are somewhat lapsed Catholics.  We do not often attend church, but we still believe in the basic tenants of the faith that we were born into and confirmed.

There is certainly some effort to becoming married within the faith.  Both partners must be willing to go through the process.  Part of that is agreeing to being open to any children that result from the marriage and raising them in the faith.  It's an important thing to be in agreement on and personally, I would feel weird having a religious ceremony in which I would have to outright lie about my intentions.

PrettyGirlLost

sarahbear31 said:

sarahufl said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.

I just wanted to comment on these two points.

1.)  It's not that the church doesn't condone artificial birth control - it is a grave sin. Most priests I know are "don't ask, don't tell" types, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still, according to church teaching, considered a sin.
2.)  The "strings" you refer to are the same whether the wedding is in a Mass or a marriage rite without a Mass. 

Yes, and this gets back to a point I had originally made where people can practice and belief in a religion and yet not agree with, believe in, or follow every single teaching and aspect of dogma.

MrsMack10612

Amarantineyes said:

Thank you so much for all the replies.

My fiance is on board with the whole no-kids thing (we've talked about it extensively before, and I check in with him every so often to make sure that he's still okay with it). So yeah, I don't quite understand the desire for a sacrament that we'll have to lie about to get.

I definitely plan on talking with him more about why this is important to him, but I think the majority of it is that it was a big part of his childhood (he went to Catholic schools his whole life) and it's part of his identity, even though he no longer attends Mass.

I do feel uncomfortable about all the lying by omission I would be doing in the talks with the priest which again, I will definitely talk with him about.

Thank you again for the replies and support.

I haven't read all the replies yet, but was reading through and wanted to comment on the bolded. H is Catholic, I am not.  We were in a similar situation as you.  We were also 38/39 when we got married so I don't know if that's why it never specifically came up.

H & I have always been in agreement that we didn't want children.  I have been on BC for longer than I wasn't.  We also know that no form of BC is 100% - shit happens.  Our mindset was always that if I were to get pregnant, so be it and we'd deal with it, but we're not going out of our way to make it happen.  To us, this covered the "are you open to children" question of getting married in the Church.  Sure, if we become one of the "it can happen" statistics, then yes we are open to children.  It might be fudging the truth and semantics, but it helped us be more comfortable and not outright lying to the Church or the priest. 

To be honest, I'm not sure the direct question ever came up.

Please feel free to PM if you have any questions about the Catholic/non-Catholic marriage thing.

holyguacamole79

PrettyGirlLost said:

sarahbear31 said:

sarahufl said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.

I just wanted to comment on these two points.

1.)  It's not that the church doesn't condone artificial birth control - it is a grave sin. Most priests I know are "don't ask, don't tell" types, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still, according to church teaching, considered a sin.
2.)  The "strings" you refer to are the same whether the wedding is in a Mass or a marriage rite without a Mass. 

Yes, and this gets back to a point I had originally made where people can practice and belief in a religion and yet not agree with, believe in, or follow every single teaching and aspect of dogma.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on that.

PrettyGirlLost

flantastic said:

sarahbear31 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

sarahbear31 said:

sarahufl said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.

I just wanted to comment on these two points.

1.)  It's not that the church doesn't condone artificial birth control - it is a grave sin. Most priests I know are "don't ask, don't tell" types, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still, according to church teaching, considered a sin.
2.)  The "strings" you refer to are the same whether the wedding is in a Mass or a marriage rite without a Mass. 

Yes, and this gets back to a point I had originally made where people can practice and belief in a religion and yet not agree with, believe in, or follow every single teaching and aspect of dogma.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on that.

Yeah, I'm there too, because I think it comes down to a belief in the guidance of the Church - you either believe the Holy Spirit is telling us what's up, or not.

That's the question I always ask the kids - do you actually believe that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church and was/is guiding the Church on matters of faith and morals, or not? If you do, you've gotta take the whole kit and caboodle. If you don't, why bother?

That said, we've got the highest ideals of ethics and the most lenient penitentiary system - everybody sins, be sorry for not living up to the ideals, go to Confession, try harder. Cool.

I have a different perspective on religion because I was raised in an interfaith family where a western organized religion was practiced- Catholicism, and an eastern religion was practiced- a form of Buddhism.

For me, religion never was and never will be an infalliable, all or nothing, one is right one is wrong kind of thing, nor will I ever agree 100% with every.single.thing that is stated.

ETA:  So that's just where I'm coming from.  I don't think there's anything wrong with the whole kit and caboodle approach per se, it's just not how I veiw things.

PrettyGirlLost

flantastic said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

flantastic said:

sarahbear31 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

sarahbear31 said:

sarahufl said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.

I just wanted to comment on these two points.

1.)  It's not that the church doesn't condone artificial birth control - it is a grave sin. Most priests I know are "don't ask, don't tell" types, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still, according to church teaching, considered a sin.
2.)  The "strings" you refer to are the same whether the wedding is in a Mass or a marriage rite without a Mass. 

Yes, and this gets back to a point I had originally made where people can practice and belief in a religion and yet not agree with, believe in, or follow every single teaching and aspect of dogma.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on that.

Yeah, I'm there too, because I think it comes down to a belief in the guidance of the Church - you either believe the Holy Spirit is telling us what's up, or not.

That's the question I always ask the kids - do you actually believe that the Holy Spirit was given to the Church and was/is guiding the Church on matters of faith and morals, or not? If you do, you've gotta take the whole kit and caboodle. If you don't, why bother?

That said, we've got the highest ideals of ethics and the most lenient penitentiary system - everybody sins, be sorry for not living up to the ideals, go to Confession, try harder. Cool.

I have a different perspective on religion because I was raised in an interfaith family where a western organized religion was practiced- Catholicism, and an eastern religion was practiced- a form of Buddhism.

For me, religion never was and never will be an infalliable, all or nothing, one is right one is wrong kind of thing, nor will I ever agree 100% with every.single.thing that is stated.

ETA:  So that's just where I'm coming from.  I don't think there's anything wrong with the whole kit and caboodle approach per se, it's just not how I veiw things.

Yeah, but if you decide that you know better than the Church on issues x, y, z, that makes it more about you than about the Church - ergo you don't really believe in the Church. In the bolded, you pretty much say just that. That's all I'm saying. It's a philosophical distinction.

I'm not saying "I know better", I'm saying "I don't agree with that subject/teaching/issue."

Just like in politics where a person can associate with or identify as a particular party or group and yet not agree with 100% of that party's or group's take on every issue.

IrishPirate60

Primacy of conscience is also part of Catholic teaching. Catholics are bound to follow their informed conscience, which can and does, in fact, lead to individuals dissenting from official teaching and still being Catholics in good standing. It is not for anyone else to speculate or judge what a couple, in this instance, has discussed and decided to do.

PrettyGirlLost

flantastic said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

flantastic said:

Yeah, but if you decide that you know better than the Church on issues x, y, z, that makes it more about you than about the Church - ergo you don't really believe in the Church. In the bolded, you pretty much say just that. That's all I'm saying. It's a philosophical distinction.

I'm not saying "I know better", I'm saying "I don't agree with that subject/teaching/issue."

Just like in politics where a person can associate with or identify as a particular party or group and yet not agree with 100% of that party's or group's take on every issue.

I was going to say that's not an actual distinction, because people don't tend to subscribe to their own beliefs if they actually think other's beliefs are better. However, I think you're saying that you're open to the idea that your belief on x issue could be better, and you think it probably is, but the alternate idea could also be better. I myself am open to the possibility that I'm wrong, but I hold my own beliefs because I truly think that based on the evidence presented, they're the best option around.

The nature of the Church, though, is that it's not like a political party. The whole point is that you don't just get to subscribe to the beliefs you like. That's an actual Catholic teaching. You're treating it like a political party, but that means that one of the things that you don't believe about Catholicism is those first two sentences of this paragraph.

Well I don't exactly treat religion like a political party- I was just using that as the simplest example to explain my thinking, without launching into a full blown discussion on my exact views. . . because they are complicated and most of you will find them to be controversial, and I don't want to derail the thread or piss ppl off.

IrishPirate60 said:

Primacy of conscience is also part of Catholic teaching. Catholics are bound to follow their informed conscience, which can and does, in fact, lead to individuals dissenting from official teaching and still being Catholics in good standing. It is not for anyone else to speculate or judge what a couple, in this instance, has discussed and decided to do.

This is a very great point, all of it, but for me the bolded is the key.  I don't think anyone in this thread was judging anyone or speculating, I think we were having a very nice discussion.  I just mean in general this point is very important.

ETA: Cleaned up quote boxes, sheesh!

PrettyGirlLost

Whoops! ><

IrishPirate60

It was a great discussion. I love it when people don't go into hyperoverdrive and start defending the barricades. A lot of issues are generally more complex than the soundbite/headline. When good discussion happens, everyone benefits.

holyguacamole79

I was just lurking the discussion between PrettyGirlLost.  Nice job, ladies.

Amarantineyes

A really interesting discussion, definitely! No worries about derailing, haha.

I talked with him, and he says he still considers himself a Catholic, and doesn't think that going to Mass/not going makes one a good Catholic/not (which ties into the above discussion rather nicely!). He believes in the Sacraments, and wants our wedding to, you know, be that.

I've let him know that I'm willing to try it, but that I am going to be completely truthful with the priest, and if there's a problem, I'm not going to fudge or lie just to make it work out. Here's hoping.

holyguacamole79

Amarantineyes, I'm glad you're open to discussion.  I hope y'all have a good priest that will guide you through Pre-Cana well and help you understand your questions.

Amarantineyes

I just learned that my fiance hasn't been confirmed. Will this be an issue?

holyguacamole79

Amarantineyes said:

I just learned that my fiance hasn't been confirmed. Will this be an issue?

It may be an issue. Check with your priest. ETA: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-i-need-to-be-confirmed-to-be-married-in-the-church

IrishPirate60

@Amarantineyes‌ it will be something that comes up, but here's why: Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist are sacraments of initiation. Matrimony and Holy Orders are vocation sacraments which, best case scenario, those celebrating them are fully initiated. If there is time for preparation, your FI may be confirmed, but it is not required, according to church law. I presume you're already in contact with the Catholic parish where you'll be married. Raise the question. They'll work with you. Best wishes.

Amarantineyes

My fiance has contacted a local church - we're living in Seattle, but will be getting married in my hometown, Baltimore, so that my grandmother is able to attend (extremely important to me, as my grandfather, who I was extremely close to along with my grandmother, passed away last year. I need her to be able to be there.)

holyguacamole79

Have you talked to the churches in Baltimore? Depending on the church / pastor, they may have requirements regarding being a parishioner before setting a date.

Amarantineyes

We have not. This is why I'm trying to get the ball rolling so quickly, even though our wedding isn't planning on being until spring 2016, so that we have enough time to figure out all the bureaucratic stuff. Not being Catholic myself, I have no idea what Catholic churches are in the area. I have a friend from middle school who is Catholic, I'll shoot her an email to ask about it.

holyguacamole79

Amarantineyes said:

We have not. This is why I'm trying to get the ball rolling so quickly, even though our wedding isn't planning on being until spring 2016, so that we have enough time to figure out all the bureaucratic stuff. Not being Catholic myself, I have no idea what Catholic churches are in the area. I have a friend from middle school who is Catholic, I'll shoot her an email to ask about it.

I'm not gonna sugarcoat things for you - the bureaucratic bullshit might get bad. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it ... Just have realistic expectations. Good luck!!!

Amarantineyes

Believe me, I know from researching all the laws pertaining to Catholic marriage and talking to current and ex-Catholics that there is going to be a loooottt of bureaucratic stuff to wade through. I keep pointing things out to my fiance but he's like, oh don't worry about it, have you ever talked to a Catholic priest, it'll be fine but, I worry. It's just part of my make-up. Thank you for patiently answering all my questions and for your advice. I'd rather have realistic advice than sugarcoating any day!

holyguacamole79

It really depends on the priest, and in your case ... It will also depend on the pastor of the church you select in Baltimore. I think you said that your FI is not currently attending Mass? Does he have a priest he feels comfortable discussing this with?

happy2016

sarahufl said:

A lot of the couples in our Catholic marriage prep were already living together and taking BC. The church doesn't condone it, but I got a feeling that they were less judgmental about it these days. They did spend time talking about NFP rather than hormonal BC.

We had to promise, on the altar, in front of our family and friends, that we would embrace children and raise them in the church. I would say that this isn't a time to fudge things and say them just so you can have the church wedding your FI wants. You should meet with the priest, find out what sort of ceremony you can have, and decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it.

If you are not comfortable with the strings attached to a Catholic mass (which, trust me, there are some) you should figure out an alternative option.

What strings are attached to a catholic mass?

happy2016

Jbee85 -

You said there is a lot of preparation. What preparation is there that is different or more involved then typical churh weddings in other denominations? Just curious.