Spinoff: the debt talk

loro929

I guess this could be a spinoff from the salary thread - but  reading many of your comments really got me thinking.

Many people, as we saw/read, can be somewhat guarded about revealing their income for a variety of reasons but I feel that it is almost the opposite when it comes to debt. For instance, as a graduate of a private university in 2009 - one of the recurrent themes of discussion among fellow graduates were student loans. People spoke freely and openly about how much they had to owe (even when at that point, and during that time period, prospects for a decent paying job were practically zilch). 

Among people I know (both colleagues, acquaintances, and friends), I also feel like "debt" is a topic that is OK to discuss - even though how much you make isn't --- maybe as a sense of camaraderie in the "we're all in this together" thought.

So my question for debate is: Why does it seem that people are more comfortable to openly talk about what they owe, rather than what they make? Or do you think that I totally off base with this observation?

southernbelle0915

I think the debt talks were more a part of the national conversation in response to an economic crisis. Especially the demographic you're in - recent college graduate with student loans and few job prospects. 

I don't think people spouting off what they owe to whom is typical, but more the conversation of the hour at that time. And as the economy recovers and people's finances go back to normal, I see these conversations changing.

lacqueredlover

I think people are fairly free talking about "debt" when it comes to things like student loans.  I don't think too many people are open about being in credit card debt or something that would be their "fault" know what I mean?

Jells2dot0

I think that it's because there is less chance of jealousy stemming from a conversation about debt. While I keep my salary to myself, if someone asks about debt, I will usually tell them, though I don't reveal anything unless asked.

It could also be that some people don't mind sharing it because it justifies why they don't live as well as they might without it. It's not right to try to "keep up with the Joneses" but some people live and breathe by that mentality.

Personally, I guess I don't mind telling people about my debt because I don't have very much of it . Just a car payment and a mortgage. For some reason, I'm way more proud of that then my salary!

thisismynickname2

I think debt is a topic because for Americans, it's just getting out of control.  There's "good debt" (mortgage and student loans) and "bad debt" (credit cards).  I see people talk more about the good debt for long term investments than admitting to credit card debt.  

DH moans about his student loan debt, which by the way, he fully analyzed his ability to pay back on his current salary before he enrolled. We are hoping the investment pays off in the long run.  He feels bad about it now because we're not saving as much as we should for a bigger home or a child. I have the ability to save more than he does. I assured him that since it's an investment in education I don't mind. Had I met him with $70k-$100k in credit card debt including his big screen TV, it would have been another story.  

climbingsingle

lacqueredlover said:

I think people are fairly free talking about "debt" when it comes to things like student loans.  I don't think too many people are open about being in credit card debt or something that would be their "fault" know what I mean?

Ditto this. I think talking about debt from students loans is a common and acceptable thing. For instance, my close friend that's a doctor - I know how much she owes because she's told us. My best friend has discussed with me the loans she took out to get her masters. However, none of us ever discuss any other kind of debt - mortgage, car loans, credit card. Only my husband knows what kind of debt I have, and vice versa. 

cupcait927

lacqueredlover said:

I think people are fairly free talking about "debt" when it comes to things like student loans.  I don't think too many people are open about being in credit card debt or something that would be their "fault" know what I mean?

I agree with this. I'll openly talk about how much student loan debt I have and the monthly payments, and I'll even talk about our mortgage and monthly payment there, because I feel like those are "okay" debts to have. I would never talk to anyone about what I'm currently paying on my credit card or my car payments though, and wouldn't expect anyone to talk to me about it either, outside of maybe close friends that are looking for advice.

esstee33

I'm equally as uncomfortable talking about my debt as I am talking about my salary, TBH. 

jenna8984

I have found it to be just as taboo in my circle. I know the amount of my BFF's student loans (astronomical) but she doesn't let anyone else know and she's definitely not comfortable talking about it as an open subject. All of my other friends, I know have some sort of student debt but not how much. So people I know are as guarded with that information, as am I. To me it's the same as salary so I'm fine saying "there's debt" but I leave it at that, no one needs each others' numbers.

Maggie0829

Jells2dot0 said:

Personally, I guess I don't mind telling people about my debt because I don't have very much of it . Just a car payment and a mortgage. For some reason, I'm way more proud of that then my salary!

This is the same with me.  I was always proud of the fact that I didn't have student loans or credit card debt, so I am more willing and happy to show off the debt I do have, which is very little and what I consider "good" debt.

dcbride86

FI is a lobbyist in higher ed, and SO MANY PEOPLE will come up to him at parties and start talking about debt.  He gets so uncomfortable because even though they bring it up, he doesn't want to talk to people about money or debt in a social setting

loro929

That's true, maybe I was making too much of a generalization.

Some types of debt: student loans, mortgages, car payments - might even be able to be seen as milestones of accomplishments. In many cases, student loans are a symbol that you finished school, your ability to pay them demonstrates that you have a job. A mortgage is a sign that you have a house, and again, that you have an ability to buy something - same with cars. Thus, these debts may also demonstrate the pride of the person who has them - and when they are paid off a sense of accomplishment and ownership.

Even in some of the other posts there have been this week, regarding medical bills. This information is shared to demonstrate what could be the plight of a family, in tragic circumstances, or even what some could consider to raise a discussion on the expensive prices in the health care system in the US.

However and that being said, I do agree with the PP who mentioned credit card debt - I guess I was thinking with too narrow a view when I typed the OP. When I have been in conversations of people discussing debt, it almost always tended to circle around debt of big-ticket purchases - as I mentioned before that might equate to a sense of pride of purchase. In the case of student loans - as it is a hot political topic, many people like to weigh in with their own personal experiences and thereby, share the amount they will pay, are paying, or have paid. While on the other hand, something like credit card debt (in some cases) could signify the inability to pay for something because of lack of cash-flow / funds etc., which is not something that someone might feel comfortable sharing.

l9i

I can't say I'm any more comfortable with this.  I avoid debt outside of mortgages and auto loans, to me that's responsible.  I also made prudent decisions in going to school and was fortunate to have loans under 8k and were paid off within of year of completing school.  DH's are more but managable since we are both in fields that typically make more. I have friends that I know went into debt upwards of 100k in a field that doesnt pay well, I don't feel comfortable of this subject any more than a salary.  For me I would still feel like I was bragging.  There's also a little judgement on my part that they put themselve in that situation.  Knowing the school, program, etc there were other just as good options in my opinion at near by schools that wouldn't have run them that far into debt.  So yes, I avoid this even with student loans

I have friends that talk about credit card debt freely, again, I'm not comfortable talking about it because in some cases it's been frivilous irresponsibility.  Mortgages and car loans I've talked some when friends have asked.  Like a friend looking at houses wanted to know more about the house we bought, and financing, etc.  That's ok.  I just upgraded my car and friends asked why, zero precent interest, thats why.

I don't know, it all depends on the context, same as salary.  IMHO, how you manage your money can say a lot about responsibility so I try not to talk about because in some cases I just don't want to know.

loro929

thisismynickname said:

I think debt is a topic because for Americans, it's just getting out of control.  There's "good debt" (mortgage and student loans) and "bad debt" (credit cards).  I see people talk more about the good debt for long term investments than admitting to credit card debt.  

DH moans about his student loan debt, which by the way, he fully analyzed his ability to pay back on his current salary before he enrolled. We are hoping the investment pays off in the long run.  He feels bad about it now because we're not saving as much as we should for a bigger home or a child. I have the ability to save more than he does. I assured him that since it's an investment in education I don't mind. Had I met him with $70k-$100k in credit card debt including his big screen TV, it would have been another story.  

This. I think it would be a great move to have financial health courses in HS. That way, when children begin to make adult financial decisions (which for many begin with the selection of a university) they are well prepared to understand what the repercussions of those decisions might mean in the long term. 

theartistformerlyknownas

Definitely limited to the type of debt, and how much it was within your control. Student loans are easy to humble brag about... "ohhh, woe is me, my Ivy League college left me with more student loan debt than your life is worth." Or blatantly bragging that you got out of private school with only $x in loans. Same with people who talk about their mortgage or car payments... they're subtly trying to hint at how much their stuff is worth. 

Conversely, complaining about astronomical medical debt garners a lot of (warranted) sympathy - it's often amounts that people can't fathom, it opens up a needed conversation about the cost of medical care, and it's generally something you couldn't avoid. 

But nobody wants to go around talking about how they racked up $12,000 in credit card debt buying yoga pants and Taco Bell in college, or what the monthly payment is on their boob job bill.

kat1114

I was fortunate that my mom paid for my undergrad (and also that I went to a state school). But, I took out 6 figures in loans to fund law school. A lot of my former classmates are in the same boat as I am, and we do talk about it. I think it helps us all feel a little bit better knowing that we're all equally screwed.

Most of my close friends also know about my student loan debt. Some of them have asked, some of them just know how much law school costs. I've also told a few people (in general terms, not specifics) because I get really tired of hearing "Oh, but you're a lawyer. You can afford _____!"

I don't think anyone outside of H knows about my credit card debt. I don't know the reason either, but it feels less socially acceptable to discuss that debt, other than just generally saying, "I want to pay of my credit card debt."

buttercup1958

I don't think I would be comfortable discussing debt with anyone besides V. I think one of the main reasons is I just find money talk, and other private matters tacky. But that's just my opinion. Plus V doesn't have any debt good or bad. Unless you count his credit cards which he pays off every month.

I'm very lucky that my parents are paying for my education and my graduate education as well. This allows me to be ahead of my peers and save up so I can be prepared for total finance independence. I know I'm in a small group that can say that though and I dowish my friends didn't have to take out student loans.

amelisha

Yeah, it's no different in my circle. Just not party talk. 

My close friends do discuss it, but not while standing with some acquaintances by the hummus, you know?

loro929

kat1114 said:

I was fortunate that my mom paid for my undergrad (and also that I went to a state school). But, I took out 6 figures in loans to fund law school. A lot of my former classmates are in the same boat as I am, and we do talk about it. I think it helps us all feel a little bit better knowing that we're all equally screwed.

Most of my close friends also know about my student loan debt. Some of them have asked, some of them just know how much law school costs. I've also told a few people (in general terms, not specifics) because I get really tired of hearing "Oh, but you're a lawyer. You can afford _____!"

I don't think anyone outside of H knows about my credit card debt. I don't know the reason either, but it feels less socially acceptable to discuss that debt, other than just generally saying, "I want to pay of my credit card debt."

I tend to agree with this also, but more and more I have been seeing on Facebook, for instance, people posting statuses along the lines of "Just paid off my CC debt - margs on me tonight !!!" - or "3 months left to go and the CC balance is zero!!". I personally do not have CC debt , but I think I would feel uncomfortable making a countdown on facebook regarding how many more payments I have to get the balance down to 0.

kat1114

loro929 said:

kat1114 said:

I was fortunate that my mom paid for my undergrad (and also that I went to a state school). But, I took out 6 figures in loans to fund law school. A lot of my former classmates are in the same boat as I am, and we do talk about it. I think it helps us all feel a little bit better knowing that we're all equally screwed.

Most of my close friends also know about my student loan debt. Some of them have asked, some of them just know how much law school costs. I've also told a few people (in general terms, not specifics) because I get really tired of hearing "Oh, but you're a lawyer. You can afford _____!"

I don't think anyone outside of H knows about my credit card debt. I don't know the reason either, but it feels less socially acceptable to discuss that debt, other than just generally saying, "I want to pay of my credit card debt."

I tend to agree with this also, but more and more I have been seeing on Facebook, for instance, people posting statuses along the lines of "Just paid off my CC debt - margs on me tonight !!!" - or "3 months left to go and the CC balance is zero!!". I personally do not have CC debt , but I think I would feel uncomfortable making a countdown on facebook regarding how many more payments I have to get the balance down to 0.

Ugh, I have a Facebook friend that did this regarding her car payment, and I found it super annoying.

Also, I love when people say things like "paid of my CC time to go shop!" NO! That's what got you into this trouble in the first place.

RebeccaFlower

esstee33 said:

I'm equally as uncomfortable talking about my debt as I am talking about my salary, TBH. 

I'm with this. All of the above is no one's business. 

Jells2dot0

lolo883 said:

Definitely limited to the type of debt, and how much it was within your control. Student loans are easy to humble brag about... "ohhh, woe is me, my Ivy League college left me with more student loan debt than your life is worth." Or blatantly bragging that you got out of private school with only $x in loans. Same with people who talk about their mortgage or car payments... they're subtly trying to hint at how much their stuff is worth. 

Conversely, complaining about astronomical medical debt garners a lot of (warranted) sympathy - it's often amounts that people can't fathom, it opens up a needed conversation about the cost of medical care, and it's generally something you couldn't avoid. 

But nobody wants to go around talking about how they racked up $12,000 in credit card debt buying yoga pants and Taco Bell in college, or what the monthly payment is on their boob job bill.

I personally will not talk about how much I owe, but I will mention that I have a mortgage and car payment.

flyingfoxes

How do you handle it when you have differing opinions from your spouse/FI about credit cards?  FI hates credit cards, but his ex-wife left him with a lot to pay off from when they were married, and he just got those taken care of while he was deployed.  I don't mind credit cards, I looooove interest-free financing.  I guess once we're married I'll just keep my cards and he'll keep his - I don't think we'll be responsible for the other's debts that way?   

Jells2dot0

mobride2015 said:

How do you handle it when you have differing opinions from your spouse/FI about credit cards?  FI hates credit cards, but his ex-wife left him with a lot to pay off from when they were married, and he just got those taken care of while he was deployed.  I don't mind credit cards, I looooove interest-free financing.  I guess once we're married I'll just keep my cards and he'll keep his - I don't think we'll be responsible for the other's debts that way?   

We keep our finances separate and have a prenup that keeps everything separate, except for our homes. Neither one of us has any CC debt, so it wouldn't really matter anyway, but we like our set up. In some states, even if you keep separate cards, you're still responsible for your spouse's debt. So, be sure to know the rules with that.

theartistformerlyknownas

Jells2dot0 said:

lolo883 said:

Definitely limited to the type of debt, and how much it was within your control. Student loans are easy to humble brag about... "ohhh, woe is me, my Ivy League college left me with more student loan debt than your life is worth." Or blatantly bragging that you got out of private school with only $x in loans. Same with people who talk about their mortgage or car payments... they're subtly trying to hint at how much their stuff is worth. 

Conversely, complaining about astronomical medical debt garners a lot of (warranted) sympathy - it's often amounts that people can't fathom, it opens up a needed conversation about the cost of medical care, and it's generally something you couldn't avoid. 

But nobody wants to go around talking about how they racked up $12,000 in credit card debt buying yoga pants and Taco Bell in college, or what the monthly payment is on their boob job bill.

I personally will not talk about how much I owe, but I will mention that I have a mortgage and car payment.

I have a friend who LOVES to tell everyone about his over-$600 lease payment. SO tacky. Doesn't make you better than anyone else, dude. 

Just mentioning that you have those payments is NBD to me though.

jenna8984

lolo883 said:

Jells2dot0 said:

lolo883 said:

Definitely limited to the type of debt, and how much it was within your control. Student loans are easy to humble brag about... "ohhh, woe is me, my Ivy League college left me with more student loan debt than your life is worth." Or blatantly bragging that you got out of private school with only $x in loans. Same with people who talk about their mortgage or car payments... they're subtly trying to hint at how much their stuff is worth. 

Conversely, complaining about astronomical medical debt garners a lot of (warranted) sympathy - it's often amounts that people can't fathom, it opens up a needed conversation about the cost of medical care, and it's generally something you couldn't avoid. 

But nobody wants to go around talking about how they racked up $12,000 in credit card debt buying yoga pants and Taco Bell in college, or what the monthly payment is on their boob job bill.

I personally will not talk about how much I owe, but I will mention that I have a mortgage and car payment.

I have a friend who LOVES to tell everyone about his over-$600 lease payment. SO tacky. Doesn't make you better than anyone else, dude. 

Just mentioning that you have those payments is NBD to me though.

The funny thing is that people like that "think" they are better than everyone else. But as an accountant, I laugh and think it makes you look like a fool who flushes money down the toilet. So thanks for sharing that info and giving me the exact opposite impression that you were going for

sarawifenow

Coming from the financial industry, I feel like people like to talk to me about their financial situation a lot more than they did before I entered into this job field.

 

I think, in my case, people are more looking for advice than anything. Also, sometimes you just need to get it out when you owe things. A lot of my clients will let their debt eat away at them. I can almost visibly see the weight lift a little when they lay it out on the table.

l9i

jenna8984 said:

lolo883 said:

Jells2dot0 said:

lolo883 said:

Definitely limited to the type of debt, and how much it was within your control. Student loans are easy to humble brag about... "ohhh, woe is me, my Ivy League college left me with more student loan debt than your life is worth." Or blatantly bragging that you got out of private school with only $x in loans. Same with people who talk about their mortgage or car payments... they're subtly trying to hint at how much their stuff is worth. 

Conversely, complaining about astronomical medical debt garners a lot of (warranted) sympathy - it's often amounts that people can't fathom, it opens up a needed conversation about the cost of medical care, and it's generally something you couldn't avoid. 

But nobody wants to go around talking about how they racked up $12,000 in credit card debt buying yoga pants and Taco Bell in college, or what the monthly payment is on their boob job bill.

I personally will not talk about how much I owe, but I will mention that I have a mortgage and car payment.

I have a friend who LOVES to tell everyone about his over-$600 lease payment. SO tacky. Doesn't make you better than anyone else, dude. 

Just mentioning that you have those payments is NBD to me though.

The funny thing is that people like that "think" they are better than everyone else. But as an accountant, I laugh and think it makes you look like a fool who flushes money down the toilet. So thanks for sharing that info and giving me the exact opposite impression that you were going for

This.  Example: My half sister just bougt a brand new really car and was all "look at me and how expensive this was but I can afford it" but because of that expense lives pay check to pay check and gave custody of her children to the father because they are too expensive for her to take car of.  And this is why I don't talk about it because now I know you have mixed up priorities in life (I did before).

JCbride2015

I talk about student loan debt with my other friends in the same boat.  We don't share numbers, but since we all went to the same school, I'm pretty sure our loans are about the same.  It's sort of a commiseration thing.  We'll also have practical discussions about it, like trying to keep our rent low so we can pay the loans off faster, what are ways you've been able to save money on lunch at work, etc.

Several of my friends have brought up CC debt and I'll mention that I have it, but again, no numbers.

And I hate the whole "You're a lawyer now, you can have anything you want."  No!  Nononono!  I want to pay off those student loans before I'm paying for my own kid's education.

kat1114

JCbride2015 said:

I talk about student loan debt with my other friends in the same boat.  We don't share numbers, but since we all went to the same school, I'm pretty sure our loans are about the same.  It's sort of a commiseration thing.  We'll also have practical discussions about it, like trying to keep our rent low so we can pay the loans off faster, what are ways you've been able to save money on lunch at work, etc.

Several of my friends have brought up CC debt and I'll mention that I have it, but again, no numbers.

And I hate the whole "You're a lawyer now, you can have anything you want."  No!  Nononono!  I want to pay off those student loans before I'm paying for my own kid's education.

This so much. I  have friends and family saying, "why don't you just a house/car/etc." Um because I owe a mortgage size student loan bill. One of my law school friends just bought a new Honda Civic, and she said the guy at the dealership kind of gave her a hard time about why isn't she getting a BMW or some other luxury car.

larrygaga

I only know about other student's debt and only because we like to lolsadface about it.

Basically it's rude to bring up money in any conversation ever.