Chit Chat

Mental Illness

I didn't want to threadjack Novella's post, but her situation with her sister brings up something interesting for me. What is the line between being mentally ill and being an asshole? 

I don't necessarily think there's a right answer to this question. What are your thoughts?

*I don't in any way mean to imply that all mentally ill people are assholes. That's absolutely not the case. But there are instances where reprehensible behaviour can be legitimately attributed to an underlying mental illness. 
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Re: Mental Illness

  • I think that when one's actions cross over from being mean to being harmful then their behavior should be looked at closer.
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  • SmileDamnitSmileDamnit member
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    edited December 2014
    My brother is, and will always be, a paranoid schizophrenic, and my brother often behaves like an asshole. Some of it is, most definitely, related to his illness, but honestly, some of it simply his personality. That said, I don't tolerate interactions with him when he's being an ass, regardless from where it stems. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to cut him off, b/c I'll always be a very vocal advocate for him and getting (or at least trying my hardest) the treatment he needs. But I'm not going to call or visit or such when he's a dick.
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  • I was kind of thinking about this too. I have a very good friend that was diagnosed borderline following a suicide... attempt? Everything I read makes it sound like BPDs are assholes, but my friend is very caring and I absolutely do not think it's in a manipulative way. I was really surprised about the dx. I knew she had some anxiety problems, but that's about it.

    I didn't press for an explanation. I do know she disassociates when extremely stressed, which is what led to her making an attempt. She wasn't aware of her actions.

    So anyway I guess my point is reading about a disorder doesn't really give you a cookie cutter picture of what the disorder looks like.
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  • I think assholes can have moments of redemption and genuine remorse. You can treat them in a logical way, and they will most likely react in some form of logic, even if they're still an asshole.

    I think with mental illness, there is no redemption because you're in a different world. Depending on the illness, there will be no remorse and no empathy. You will get nowhere. Logic and reasoning are worthless.

    But I don't think it's up to the average person to decide which is which. As Larry said, all you can do is decide that the person is too harmful to be kept in your life. And then distance yourself. Mental illness or not, people can only take so much.
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  • I think that it's definitely not really clear. I feel like it's really case dependent.

    For example, my husband has moderate OCD. There have been a lot of challenges we've faced because it's not always clear what's OCD and what's just my husband. And sometimes, the answer is both: it was hard for him to learn how to split holidays because he wasn't used to it and didn't really want to ... and because his OCD meant that he spent a lot of time obsessing over how missing Thanksgiving was going to result in his family being crushed emotionally, etc.

    Meanwhile, my dad has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is like ... impossible to really effectively treat because the whole point is that he thinks he's the greatest and has no problems. With things like NPD, there's a lot more work that has to be done by people other than the person with the personality disorder. Whereas my husband has gone through a lot of therapy (and is in therapy with me now) and improved a lot, my dad basically thought therapy was for people with problems and he didn't have any problems. Which, okay then?
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  • phira said:
    I think that it's definitely not really clear. I feel like it's really case dependent.

    For example, my husband has moderate OCD. There have been a lot of challenges we've faced because it's not always clear what's OCD and what's just my husband. And sometimes, the answer is both: it was hard for him to learn how to split holidays because he wasn't used to it and didn't really want to ... and because his OCD meant that he spent a lot of time obsessing over how missing Thanksgiving was going to result in his family being crushed emotionally, etc.

    Meanwhile, my dad has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is like ... impossible to really effectively treat because the whole point is that he thinks he's the greatest and has no problems. With things like NPD, there's a lot more work that has to be done by people other than the person with the personality disorder. Whereas my husband has gone through a lot of therapy (and is in therapy with me now) and improved a lot, my dad basically thought therapy was for people with problems and he didn't have any problems. Which, okay then?
    Ok no wonder you get it so much with my issues. My dad is exactly the same way. He once stomped on my mom's foot (by mistake) when he was wearing shoes and she was barefoot and she screamed "ouch!" and he snapped at her to keep her foot out of his way. It was HER fault that he stepped on her. And when I called him out and told him to apologize, he couldn't. Cuz he NEVER does anything wrong.
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  • I agree it's really hard to distinguish between what's illness and what's the person. I have depression and am in the process of getting diagnosed with inattentive ADHD.

    Honestly, I do think a lot of it is ingrained into my personality. Antidepressants even me out but it's not like taking a happy pill. It's not that different. What ADHD meds are like remains to be seen but I suspect it'll be much the same. ADHD tends to be coupled with creativity and that is very me, the messy chaotic artist's personality, so to speak. Part of me does not like the idea of trying to change that.

    Personality disorders are really hard to treat because it's literally the personality that is the problem, not a lack of serotonin or whatever. Plus they usually cannot be convinced they need help. Thankfully, my friend is not one of those.
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  • I think we're a lot more complicated than most labels and behavior is not black and white enough to pin us all down as one thing.
  • I think it depends strongly on the diagnosis. If I am being a jerk, it's not because I have clinical depression and PTSD. Those things don't make me be a jerk. But maybe BPD or NPD or schizophrenia will make you be a jerk, because you're less in control of your words and actions.
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  • My brother is, and will always be, a paranoid schizophrenic, and my brother often behaves like an asshole. Some of it is, most definitely, related to his illness, but honestly, some of it simply his personality. That said, I don't tolerate interactions with him when he's being an ass, regardless from where it stems. That doesn't mean I'm ever going to cut him off, b/c I'll always be a very vocal advocate for him and getting (or at least trying my hardest) the treatment he needs. But I'm not going to call or visit or such when he's a dick.
    My dad is, too. I have a little bit more patience for his behavior when I can tell that it's in response to a delusion (like when he's angry because he thinks his things have been stolen, but in reality he just misplaced or forgot them). But when he's thinking clearly and being an asshole, I won't engage with him.


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  • @novella1186 People with NPD also can't really empathize with other people. I remember that one night, when I was in early high school, we had family over for a big party, and my dad started telling bad puns, and I kept asking him to stop because it was annoying and he was embarrassing me. His response was to keep doing it because I wanted him to stop, and he kept doing it until I burst into tears. He then yelled at me for getting upset.

    Knowing what the clinical diagnosis is doesn't change very much, but it makes it easier for me to cope. Before I learned a little more about NPD, every time I interacted with him was like, "Okay, this time, I'm going to try this strategy!" and every time, everything backfired and I'd just end up miserable. Now, it's easier for me to predict his behavior, and I also feel so much less guilty for not just "figuring out" how to deal with him.

    There are a lot of books available for people who have parents with NPD, although they tend to be written about mothers with NPD, and they also tend to be about learning to cope with your parent and not like ... what I did, which was get the fuck out of dodge. But if you're not ready for estrangement, that might be something to look into.

    (I have a theory for why there are many books focusing on mothers with NPD instead of parents with NPD. I think it might be because women are expected to be maternal and have specific motherly qualities; NPD flies in the face of what it means culturally to be motherly. In the meantime, a lot of NPD comes across as just super-confidence in a lot of men. We don't have the same expectations for fathers as we do mothers, so it's less upsetting in terms of societal reaction when a father puns at his child until she cries. Especially since puns are "dad jokes.")
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  • steph861 said:
    I didn't want to threadjack Novella's post, but her situation with her sister brings up something interesting for me. What is the line between being mentally ill and being an asshole? 

    I don't necessarily think there's a right answer to this question. What are your thoughts?

    *I don't in any way mean to imply that all mentally ill people are assholes. That's absolutely not the case. But there are instances where reprehensible behaviour can be legitimately attributed to an underlying mental illness. 
    Mental illness is a PHYSICAL illness.  It is caused by physical abnormalities.  The brain can get sick or damaged just like any other part of the body.  Some kinds of mental illness are more easily treated than others, especially in the last 40 years.  Some mental illnesses cause unusual behavior.  Some, like sever depression, are more easily hidden.

    Personality disorders do not yet have a known cause and cannot be medically treated.

    Assholes are physically normal people with poor judgement.
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  • melbensomelbenso member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments Third Anniversary First Answer
    edited December 2014
    I don't know that there is a line, per se.  Because you can be both.  Mental illness is a medical condition that may explain why someone is being an asshole, but (obviously) you can be an asshole all on your own.

    My best friend suffers from manic-depressive disorder.  When she goes off her meds and has a manic episode, asshole is putting it lightly for her behavior.  She actually didn't come to my wedding (she chose not to, but I wasn't going to invite her if she was still behaving the way she was when off her meds) because she went off her meds a few months before and had a huge downward spiral.  The things she said to me during that time were incredibly hateful, and meant to be that way.  Because of her illness, she wasn't able to express things that upset her in any way that was constructive or - in the end - that wasn't just down right cruel. I know she did it because she was in the throws of mental illness.  But she was still an asshole.

    Thankfully she's back in treatment and there is a lot less asshole and a lot more healthy expression of her thoughts and feelings now.

    So, I think it's more like a Venn Diagram: one circle for asshole, one for mental illness, and a part where they overlap.

    Edit; clarity
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  • CMGragain said:


    steph861 said:

    I didn't want to threadjack Novella's post, but her situation with her sister brings up something interesting for me. What is the line between being mentally ill and being an asshole? 

    I don't necessarily think there's a right answer to this question. What are your thoughts?

    *I don't in any way mean to imply that all mentally ill people are assholes. That's absolutely not the case. But there are instances where reprehensible behaviour can be legitimately attributed to an underlying mental illness. 

    Mental illness is a PHYSICAL illness.  It is caused by physical abnormalities.  The brain can get sick or damaged just like any other part of the body.  Some kinds of mental illness are more easily treated than others, especially in the last 40 years.  Some mental illnesses cause unusual behavior.  Some, like sever depression, are more easily hidden.

    Personality disorders do not yet have a known cause and cannot be medically treated.

    Assholes are physically normal people with poor judgement.


    Totally agree with this. Except PTSD which is definitely a mental illness but isn't caused by a physical abnormality.

    My strategy is I deal with what the person does, not why they did it. If H is being mean to me, I try to be understanding, but I'll usually leave the room, doesn't matter the cause for the meanness. If he's upset, I'll comfort him, whether it's PTSD related or just a bad day. I do try to find out why he's acting a certain way, so that I can see what I could've done to better understand and help him.
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