Gender Identity

sarahufl

Knowing full well this is a hot topic, I am really interested in hearing the thoughts y'all have on the new policies implemented by the University of Vermont (clicky to NY Times).

As someone with a degree in education and an administrative role at one of the world's leading universities, I sort of struggle with the implementation of these types of policies. While I recognize (and support) the ability for people to live in ways they feel most comfortable, I also struggle with all the implications these policies come with.

I am interested in your thoughts!

ohannabelle

No problems with this.

Gender neutral pronouns are going to take a while to become accustomed to, whatever the final preference ends up being.  Consciously making the effort to say When "ze" comes in the door, for example, sounds a little awkward to me at this point in time. But if that would be somebody's preference, I would make the effort without hesitation. 

Not very long ago, people felt awkward and silly about using Ms., which now is everyday unremarkable language.

Times change, we change with them. Language evolves with us.

I have zero issues. 

lyndausvi

ohannabelle said:

No problems with this.

Gender neutral pronouns are going to take a while to become accustomed to, whatever the final preference ends up being.  Consciously making the effort to say When "ze" comes in the door, for example, sounds a little awkward to me at this point in time. But if that would be somebody's preference, I would make the effort without hesitation. 

Not very long ago, people felt awkward and silly about using Ms., which now is everyday unremarkable language.

Times change, we change with them. Language evolves with us.

I have zero issues. 

yep

VulgarGirl

How do I feel about this?

esstee33

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

sarahufl

esstee33 said:

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

Mostly the systems having to be put in place. The databases, the forms, the registration of gender identities, etc.

Logistically, it is a HUGE amount of work and process that needs to be implemented. Also, how is it enforced? Who regulates the use of the systems? Are there any repercussions for faculty members who don't agree with the policies?

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

As far as gender-neutral facilities- I work in NYC. Real estate here is at a premium. How do you accommodate three different gender groups in the best way possible?

As I said- I am all about being who you are, I just think that sometimes policies come around like this that can be very, very difficult to implement.

ETA: Federal financial aid is not up to date on this. So a student who applies for federal aid has to identify as what is legally listed on their birth certificate or else they will get denied. Their files have to then match what is listed at the school. The entire record-keeping system of the university would need to be re-vamped.

beethery

I'm cool with it.

novella1186

This article almost made me cry. It seriously makes me happy to see "the times changing" and people finally gaining acceptance and some basic respect. 

Sometimes it's humiliating when people put me on the spot about being a Jew, and sometimes I come across really ignorant people who inadvertently say really hurtful things. I can't even imagine being gender neutral or whatever else and trying/having to constantly explain things, and facing what some of these people have to face. 

The more we can move toward a more open-minded, respectful, non-discriminatory society, the happier I am for everyone. Not just for minorities, but everyone. 

AprilH81

I hope this doesn't come across as ignorant (or something worse), but after I skimmed the article it sounds like every student can chose their own pronoun?  So in theory someone could be "ze" someone could be "qe" and someone could be "xe" (and so on), right?  Did I misread that?

If you have to consult a bunch of databases/forms/charts before having a conversation with someone (or about someone else in a professional manner) wouldn't that do more to stifle conversation and discussion?  

I would become paralyzed going out of my way to not offend someone and trying to use the correct/preferred pronoun and that just doesn't sound like it would be helpful in day-to-day work/life.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a third pronoun, but it would be VERY confusing if everyone gets to chose what they want to use.

novella1186

sarahufl said:

esstee33 said:

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

Mostly the systems having to be put in place. The databases, the forms, the registration of gender identities, etc.

Logistically, it is a HUGE amount of work and process that needs to be implemented. Also, how is it enforced? Who regulates the use of the systems? Are there any repercussions for faculty members who don't agree with the policies?

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

As far as gender-neutral facilities- I work in NYC. Real estate here is at a premium. How do you accommodate three different gender groups in the best way possible?

As I said- I am all about being who you are, I just think that sometimes policies come around like this that can be very, very difficult to implement.

ETA: Federal financial aid is not up to date on this. So a student who applies for federal aid has to identify as what is legally listed on their birth certificate or else they will get denied. Their files have to then match what is listed at the school. The entire record-keeping system of the university would need to be re-vamped.

I get that the policies may be a logistical/administrative nightmare to implement. But do you get what a nightmare it would be to live in a society that thinks you're invisible? 

VulgarGirl

So...it's going to require work and adapting to change. Well...that's kind of what life is.

And as far as where to house people, most college students are adults, I don't see why we have to divy them up based on gender anyways.

Though more colleges are creating dorms for LGBTQ students specifically, for their own protection and comfort because dickbags go to college too.

sarahufl

novella1186 said:

sarahufl said:

esstee33 said:

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

Mostly the systems having to be put in place. The databases, the forms, the registration of gender identities, etc.

Logistically, it is a HUGE amount of work and process that needs to be implemented. Also, how is it enforced? Who regulates the use of the systems? Are there any repercussions for faculty members who don't agree with the policies?

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

As far as gender-neutral facilities- I work in NYC. Real estate here is at a premium. How do you accommodate three different gender groups in the best way possible?

As I said- I am all about being who you are, I just think that sometimes policies come around like this that can be very, very difficult to implement.

ETA: Federal financial aid is not up to date on this. So a student who applies for federal aid has to identify as what is legally listed on their birth certificate or else they will get denied. Their files have to then match what is listed at the school. The entire record-keeping system of the university would need to be re-vamped.

I get that the policies may be a logistical/administrative nightmare to implement. But do you get what a nightmare it would be to live in a society that thinks you're invisible? 

As I said, I support the right to identify as you feel comfortable. Just curious how things get implemented in a larger sense.

esstee33

sarahufl said:

esstee33 said:

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

Mostly the systems having to be put in place. The databases, the forms, the registration of gender identities, etc.

Logistically, it is a HUGE amount of work and process that needs to be implemented. Also, how is it enforced? Who regulates the use of the systems? Are there any repercussions for faculty members who don't agree with the policies?

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

As far as gender-neutral facilities- I work in NYC. Real estate here is at a premium. How do you accommodate three different gender groups in the best way possible?

As I said- I am all about being who you are, I just think that sometimes policies come around like this that can be very, very difficult to implement.

ETA: Federal financial aid is not up to date on this. So a student who applies for federal aid has to identify as what is legally listed on their birth certificate or else they will get denied. Their files have to then match what is listed at the school. The entire record-keeping system of the university would need to be re-vamped.

Well, yes, but ANY new system being implemented comes with all of those hassles. People learn and adjust, even if it's difficult to get used to. 

The issue with federal financial aid is definitely a major problem that would need to be fixed somehow, but I have no doubt that it will be once more schools start adopting programs like this, and from the article it seems like quite a few already are. 

@AprilH81 - from what I understood from the paragraph near the bottom, people could choose between "ze," "they," or "name only." I didn't think it was a fill-in-the-blank thing.

jdluvr06

While I don't mind people being able to pick their own pronouns to be called I really hope don't choose 'they' or 'them' or other plural pronouns. Idk... That feels very "Anthem"-ish to me.

STARMOON44

Systems change all the time. This seems like less inconvenience than updating to the stupid new Windows with the ribbon thingy. In general I think hesitating to accommodate individuals because of nonsense concerns like this is just an easy way if saying no. Oh noes gay marriage but what will they do with the marriage license forms?!?! Umm fix them?

lyndausvi

MagicInk said:

So...it's going to require work and adapting to change. Well...that's kind of what life is.

And as far as where to house people, most college students are adults, I don't see why we have to divy them up based on gender anyways.

Though more colleges are creating dorms for LGBTQ students specifically, for their own protection and comfort because dickbags go to college too.

To be fair, even as an adult I do not want to be randomly assigned a male roommate.  I don't care about males being in the building or even the floor, but I personally draw the line at sharing an actual room.    I've actually had more male room mates then female, but the only male I shared a room with I was also in a romantic relationship with.

That is my own comfort level.    Others draw the line at female only buildings or floors.   Not my thing, but everyone has their own comfort level.

esstee33

jdluvr06 said:

While I don't mind people being able to pick their own pronouns to be called I really hope don't choose 'they' or 'them' or other plural pronouns. Idk... That feels very "Anthem"-ish to me.

That's the thing, though -- nobody should have to be concerned with what random strangers think about their chosen pronoun if that's how they identify. Gestures to be more inclusive of all gender identities fall short when people are censoring themselves based on uninvolved people's opinions. 

KatieinBkln

I think it's great.

And I think large institutions are going to have a hard journey ahead. There will be gaffes, there will be confusion, there will be a HELL of a lot of re-drafting of forms to assign to interns.

But in general, I am all for calling people what they want to be called, whether that's in regard to their gender, ethnicity, name, whatever. It always pisses me off when people (not anyone here) act like being asked to be "politically correct" is somehow a huge imposition. Like, sure, is it possible to take things too far? Yes. But ultimately I feel like political correctness is supposed to be just...not being a dickhead and speaking to people (especially disenfranchised people) in a way that isn't harmful to them. It institutionalizes basic human decency. And any time you have to institutionalize that, things can get hairy. But to me, it's worth any amount of trouble to start erasing the kinds of microaggressions that eat away at minorities of all stripes.

I've also found that for the most part, people who identify in non-mainstream ways are usually pretty damn patient with the rest of us. If someone wants to be referred to in gender neutral terms, for example, they'll probably let you know. If you mess up but correct yourself and apologize, a reasonable person will be glad you're making the effort. It's the person who aggressively insists on calling someone "he" or "she" against their wishes who is an asshole. For someone like you, @sarahufl, who is kind and well meaning, I am sure people will see that you're making a good faith effort and refrain from excoriating you if you make a mistake.

theartistformerlyknownas

sarahufl said:

esstee33 said:

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

Mostly the systems having to be put in place. The databases, the forms, the registration of gender identities, etc.

Logistically, it is a HUGE amount of work and process that needs to be implemented. Also, how is it enforced? Who regulates the use of the systems? Are there any repercussions for faculty members who don't agree with the policies?

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

As far as gender-neutral facilities- I work in NYC. Real estate here is at a premium. How do you accommodate three different gender groups in the best way possible?

As I said- I am all about being who you are, I just think that sometimes policies come around like this that can be very, very difficult to implement.

ETA: Federal financial aid is not up to date on this. So a student who applies for federal aid has to identify as what is legally listed on their birth certificate or else they will get denied. Their files have to then match what is listed at the school. The entire record-keeping system of the university would need to be re-vamped.

First bolded: How often do you use gendered pronouns when speaking directly with a person though? Don't you just refer to them as "you?" That won't change. The only issue I would see is it someone took issue with a particular faculty member (where you should know how they prefer to be addressed) or a roommate, where you could just refer to that person by name rather than as "he" or "she."

Second bolded: I don't see why federal financial aid can't get rid of the sex box entirely. It shouldn't matter to them what genitalia I was born with when they're deciding if I have enough money to pay for school. Just delete the box.

Lots of things used to refer to various nationalities and cultures in discriminatory ways... some of that was tackled with enforcement, some with natural evolution of language the more people stood up for the change being necessary.

slothiegal

I'm super excited that this is a conversation.  It makes me so happy to think that when/if I ever have children, there's the possibility they will live in a world where gender is a spectrum, not a black and white issue.  And they will think that I'm just telling a "in my day we walked to school uphill both ways!" sort of story when I tell them that I lived through a time where gays weren't allowed to get married or that it was even an ISSUE that some people identify differently than how society sees them.  

(I'm also hoping that our kids will think it's ridiculous that weed was illegal and that we haven't had a woman president.  But those are conversations for another thread.)

eta words

morphemes

This makes me so incredibly happy! I used to work at the largest LGBTQ community center in the midwest and it was part of our routine to introduce ourselves and include what pronouns we prefer.

"Hi, my name is morphemes and I prefer female pronouns." 

I know this comes across as strange to most every other community/work place. I am now a law student and for the longest time after I started school, this was still the way I was introducing myself. I don't think there needs to be any concern about checking charts, etc before starting a conversation with someone. If unsure, it's always ok to ask an individual what pronouns they prefer. Generally people are very understanding of this, if it's not done in a malicious manner. 

bethsmiles

I agree with PPs - this is good. I taught at a university and I always asked students what they preferred to be called as far as their name goes. With pronouns, it was never an issue as I don't normally use pronouns when talking one-on-one with students, but I'm happy to make a note of it if a student wants to be referenced through a specific pronoun.

Obviously, outside of the classroom there are many more hoops to jump through. But just because this might mean extra work or things being harder doesn't mean it shouldn't be happening. Progress takes work.

hellohkb

Logistics and paperwork be damned- This is amazing news for people who are not male or female!

Happy dance

hellosweetie1015

I hope it happens more. 

I can, honestly, see it becoming a logistic nightmare for my school (ETA my alma mater; I don't work there) on the admin side, but I definitely want it to happen nonetheless. I would probably actually donate in their "funding drives" if I knew it would go to something like this. This makes me so happy.

doeydo

Good on that university.

huskypuppy14

sarahufl said:

esstee33 said:

I love this. 

What implications are you concerned about? 

Mostly the systems having to be put in place. The databases, the forms, the registration of gender identities, etc.

Logistically, it is a HUGE amount of work and process that needs to be implemented. Also, how is it enforced? Who regulates the use of the systems? Are there any repercussions for faculty members who don't agree with the policies?

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

As far as gender-neutral facilities- I work in NYC. Real estate here is at a premium. How do you accommodate three different gender groups in the best way possible?

As I said- I am all about being who you are, I just think that sometimes policies come around like this that can be very, very difficult to implement.

ETA: Federal financial aid is not up to date on this. So a student who applies for federal aid has to identify as what is legally listed on their birth certificate or else they will get denied. Their files have to then match what is listed at the school. The entire record-keeping system of the university would need to be re-vamped.

Are you talking about college dorms? You have a questionnaire that people fill out that says I prefer a female/male/ no preference roommate. How is that difficult? 

My alma mater already allows coed rooms (and has for many years), and they take each situation separately, and fix it if there is a problem. For example, my sophomore year I lived in an all girl dorm, and there was a person named Alex who lived in the dorm in a single room, but half way through the year, Alex wanted to move to a coed dorm because she didn't identify with being female anymore. 

Yes, it will be an adjustment for other people, but isn't it worth it?

ashley8918

I think that this is fantastic! How it could possibly be seen as anything negative is a mystery to me.

And honestly, the argument that it is too difficult logistically is pretty weak. Do you know what was also probably a logistical nightmare for institutions such as schools? Ending racial segregation. Should we have just kept things the way they were?

[Deleted User]

ashley8918

sarahufl said:

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

Why would you be using gender-inclusive pronouns in a conversation with that person, anyway? Do you not just refer to them by their name or by "you"?

STARMOON44

ashley8918 said:

sarahufl said:

I know that, as an administrator, it would take a lot of getting used to to have to look up a student every time they came into my office with a question. I would have to double check to verify how they identify before having conversations. A lot of people just come into my office, unannounced, seems like it could take some getting used to.

Why would you be using gender-inclusive pronouns in a conversation with that person, anyway? Do you not just refer to them by their name or by "you"?


Or, you just get in the habit of asking what everyone prefers. I don't hear anyone demanding that every time they come into contact with someone who doesn't know them, that person must guess correctly.

WhatawagSBNy

It took a while to settle on Ms. as the female title that does not disclose marital status, so the real life agreement on gender neutral pronouns will probably sort out by consensus. But I applaud them for opening the door, and their willingness to take all suggestions.

I remember the humiliation of a friend when a group of students decided to refer to her as it, to her face and when talking about her, after her hormones kicked in and in spite of being born with both sex organs, parents who wanted a boy had always treated her as a boy. But when nature made clear in physical development at puberty what had been reality in her mind all her life, parents of other students and teachers were as cruel as schoolmates.

I understand that the concept af varied gender identities is foreign to many at first, simply out of their experience. But I've never understood the need to torture anyone who is merely different, no threat to anyone, just a normal variation of nature.

It is good to know people are thinking constructively.

As a poster commented above, much of the bureaucratic labeling of gender is unnecessary and irrelevant, as with financial aid, or gov. Health and human services forms and requirements.
All single parents with children in their care potentially need assistance if they have low income.
Why do you have to check female for aid to women, infants and children. Why no single parent, infants and children?

Why are there gang facilities in men's locker rooms and bathrooms, when for years every female facility has individual booths, anyplace I have been? So much easier to be accommodating when all have privacy.

Maybe the overdue recognition of the need for change is finally here.