SMH* update in comments

KatieinBkln

novella1186 said:

KatieinBkln said:

The health insurance analogy doesn't work. Once or twice a year I get a UTI and have to go to the dr and get a prescription. Twice a year I have to go to my dermatologist for a skin cancer screening because of a bad biopsy several years ago. At least once a year some other random thing happens (like right now I have a nasty sinus infection for which I had to go to the dr and get antibiotics). So I know 100% beyond I doubt that I will need and use that health insurance. 

With the home invasion argument, no person who has ever presented that argument to me has EVER experienced a home invasion. 

It's one thing to be prepared for a thing that happens on a regular basis (insurance for getting sick) but it's another thing to be prepared for a random what-if scenario that may likely never occur within a person's entire lifetime. 

--And I am not, by any means, saying that people shouldn't own guns. The gun owners that I know IRL are very responsible with their guns and very knowledgeable about how to handle them and whatnot. If people like to go target shooting or hunting, then cool. They should do that. I'm just saying I don't understand that particular reasoning with the home invasion thing. 

Also, I choose to trust mankind. I will NEVER trust germs, man. Untrustworthy little fuckers.

novella1186

emmaaa said:

@novella1186 See I know insurance has to be used for regular ocurring situations; just like our guns for hunting and target shooting. But health insurance and car insurance also have to be used in cases of emergency for things that rarely, I'd ever happen; just like and assault or home invasion.

And FTR, my dad's house was broken into two years ago and all his guns and ammo were stolen. Thank God, no one was home at the time. My dad's house is also right next to my childhood church. It got broken into more times than I can count growing up. Again, luckily no one was ever there or harmed. I live in a very rural area and under emergencies, the police would take a minimum of 10 or 15 minutes to arrive.

The insurance analogy still doesn't work, even when applied to home and car insurance. 

I've been in 7 car accidents (some were just little bumps) in my lifetime so far, and I've had plenty of weird random things go wrong with my car that the insurance covered. My parents have had tree limbs fall on their house/deck/fence/garage in storms and cause damage, have had pipes break and leak and cause damage, and all kinds of things that their home insurance covered. Car stuff and home damage 100% can and will happen. 

You cannot say that home invasions 100% will happen. 

emmaaa

novella1186 said:

emmaaa said:

@novella1186 See I know insurance has to be used for regular ocurring situations; just like our guns for hunting and target shooting. But health insurance and car insurance also have to be used in cases of emergency for things that rarely, I'd ever happen; just like and assault or home invasion.

And FTR, my dad's house was broken into two years ago and all his guns and ammo were stolen. Thank God, no one was home at the time. My dad's house is also right next to my childhood church. It got broken into more times than I can count growing up. Again, luckily no one was ever there or harmed. I live in a very rural area and under emergencies, the police would take a minimum of 10 or 15 minutes to arrive.

The insurance analogy still doesn't work, even when applied to home and car insurance. 

I've been in 7 car accidents (some were just little bumps) in my lifetime so far, and I've had plenty of weird random things go wrong with my car that the insurance covered. My parents have had tree limbs fall on their house/deck/fence/garage in storms and cause damage, have had pipes break and leak and cause damage, and all kinds of things that their home insurance covered. Car stuff and home damage 100% can and will happen. 

You cannot say that home invasions 100% will happen. 

You also can't say that there is a 100% chance it wont. Just playing devil's advocate. You also can't say that there is a 100% chance you will have a car accident. Although more likely, I still don't see why it is a bad thing to be prepared.

southernbelle0915

I like the gun debate. But only between level headed, un-angry people, such as yourselves.

We own guns. All of them are cleaned, unloaded and in a gun safe - where they belong. They're recreational - for target, skeet, clays, etc. 

We've both thought about getting our CCWs, but what for? Here's the thing: the crime rate where we live is, relatively, very low. The violent crime rate is even lower. And, personally, I am not prepared or willing to kill another human being. I just don't know if I could do it without knowing FOR CERTAIN that the person was going to kill me. And by then, it'd be too late. Without knowing for certain, I'd be deciding in the heat of the moment (out of fear) what I thought someone maybe, might do.

Then there's the math, as @KateinBkIn pointed out. The likelihood of me actually being in a situation like that is slim to none. But the likelihood of something going wrong with my gun is MUCH higher. Whether it goes off on me (accidents happen to even the most careful people), or god forbid one of my children or family members. So in my head, there's more risk by me and my family by carrying around a loaded handgun all the time.

Plus I think America is pretty well paranoid and disconnected by fear. So it's also a matter of principle for me that I don't want to live in a society where everyone carries a gun, "stands their ground" and protects their "castle". But that gets more into politics than personal risk.

KatieinBkln

southernbelle0915 said:

I like the gun debate. But only between level headed, un-angry people, such as yourselves.

We own guns. All of them are cleaned, unloaded and in a gun safe - where they belong. They're recreational - for target, skeet, clays, etc. 

We've both thought about getting our CCWs, but what for? Here's the thing: the crime rate where we live is, relatively, very low. The violent crime rate is even lower. And, personally, I am not prepared or willing to kill another human being. I just don't know if I could do it without knowing FOR CERTAIN that the person was going to kill me. And by then, it'd be too late. Without knowing for certain, I'd be deciding in the heat of the moment (out of fear) what I thought someone maybe, might do.

Then there's the math, as @KateinBkIn pointed out. The likelihood of me actually being in a situation like that is slim to none. But the likelihood of something going wrong with my gun is MUCH higher. Whether it goes off on me (accidents happen to even the most careful people), or god forbid one of my children or family members. So in my head, there's more risk by me and my family by carrying around a loaded handgun all the time.

Plus I think America is pretty well paranoid and disconnected by fear. So it's also a matter of principle for me that I don't want to live in a society where everyone carries a gun, "stands their ground" and protects their "castle". But that gets more into politics than personal risk.

This is ultimately where I stand on this thought exercise. People seem so afraid--of the unknown, of their neighbors, of the Other. It saddens me that (for some) the way to assuage this fear is not by reaching out, but by tamping down, getting a gun, and focusing on protection from harm rather than avoidance of harm through (god help me) fraternity and understanding.

The truth is, in this country the only reason you need to have a gun is "I want one, and I can get a permit from the authorities." So the fact of guns is settled--they are part of our culture, and I think that's as it should be, considering the way our country was founded and the way our constitution was written. 

But it's always valuable, in my opinion, to excavate our reasons for doing things. In some cases, we might reevaluate and change our tune. In others, we examine only to come out even more certain of our previous stance. But it's worth it to think about.

princessleia22

I like the car insurance analogy... yes, there are probably more car accidents than cases where you need a gun for protection.  But, not everyone uses their car insurance.  Neither of my parents, nor my husband has ever had car accident or needed to file any claims for car insurance.  But, it's still good to have just in case it's needed.  And I'd rather have that protection before it's needed. The idea of wanting a gun if you've experienced an attack makes no sense to me. Getting car insurance the day after an accident does you no good... you may not have another accident ever if your life, but you didn't have it the one time you needed it.  Same thing with a gun for home protection.  Chances of being a victim of home invasion or robbery twice is unlikely (depending on where you live). Yes, you may wish you had it during the incident, but your odds of getting attacked are no higher than they were before the first attack. So, running out and getting a gun after you are a victim makes no sense, other than you now feel vulnerable and want to combat that feeling.

And I agree with @emmaaa that they probably should have a few more standards on gun ownership.  I would really love to see them make some sort of gun training/safety course mandatory to buy or carry a gun.  I've seen some pretty stupid people in the gun stores buying guns that obviously have no clue how to properly use one.  Or I've seen people waving around loaded guns at the shooting range.  DH and I got into guns, mainly for recreational use.  But, before we bought our first gun we took conceal carry course (mainly to learn the legal aspects of owning a gun) and a gun safety course. None of that was mandatory.  In AZ (where we live), you don't even need a permit to carry.  I'm not sure I would agree with government increasing background checks, but they certainly should require some training before allowing stupid people to carry a potentially lethal weapon.  You need to take a test to operate a car (another lethal weapon), so why not need a test to operate a gun?

Kahlyla

emmaaa said:

And FTR, my dad's house was broken into two years ago and all his guns and ammo were stolen. Thank God, no one was home at the time. My dad's house is also right next to my childhood church. It got broken into more times than I can count growing up. Again, luckily no one was ever there or harmed. I live in a very rural area and under emergencies, the police would take a minimum of 10 or 15 minutes to arrive.

But this is awful and terrifying to me, and is exactly the kind of thing that makes me prefer fewer guns being out there in the world rather than more. So your dad was a responsible gun owner, but not only did his gun ownership not stop or prevent anything bad from happening, but now someone who definitely is not a responsible gun owner has all those guns.

I see your other points and in theory I don't want to infringe on your rights to own a gun (I mean, I'm in Canada so you'll have to grant me a bit of a difference in the gun culture landscape) - and I truly am not trying to attack you, at all - but to me this event represents one of the best possible arguments against ubiquitous gun ownership.

princessbuttercup09

FI is a LEO so we have guns in the house. I'm usually home alone at night and even though our neighborhood feels safe I feel better knowing that I have the ability to protect myself. My dad was LEO to so I was raised around guns that were treated with respect and responsibly stored after work. 

hellohkb

princessbuttercup09 said:

FI is a LEO so we have guns in the house. I'm usually home alone at night and even though our neighborhood feels safe I feel better knowing that I have the ability to protect myself. My dad was LEO to so I was raised around guns that were treated with respect and responsibly stored after work. 

At first I read this and thougnt, "What does his astrological sign have to do with this?" I'm a Leo too and wasn't sure if I should go out and buy one

Chipmunk415

KatieinBkln said:

If the person who left that gun did have a permit for it, it should be taken away.

Maybe this is just me being a typical liberal lefty "real America"-hater, but if the point of conceal-and-carry laws and gun permits is to put them in the hands of responsible citizens, then I think you should have your permit rescinded if you prtove to be, ya know, completely irresponsible about it.

POD the bolded. And I am a concealed carry permit holder. There are some folks who just act irresponsible and give the rest of us bad names.

My Dad got a reminder as to gun responsibility about 8 months ago- he and my Mom rented a car for a driving trip. When they got back, Mom was unloading the car and Dad started giving her some grief about allegedly "forgetting" something at their last hotel (it was found, just not where Dad thought it should be). They got a call from the rental car place an hour after Dad returned the vehicle- Dad had accidentally left a handgun in the pocket behind the drivers seat. 

He ate crow for that one, and it's still the current measure of "well at least you didn't forget...."

FiancB

novella1186 said:

themuffinman16 said:

  That's the other side of the coin...  someone had a concealed carry permit, or no permit at all, but it was an adult.  Seriously, what were they trying to protect themselves from? The cookie monster's not that scary.  It just reminds me of the story of the mom who was killed when her toddler reached into her purse and grabbed her gun, and shot her, accidentally.  I know this gun was not loaded, so nothing bad happened, but it was still so irresponsible of the gun owner to bring it to a place where there are so many kids and to be so absent minded with it.

   A good samaritan found it after the show and turned it in, thank God.  I hope the person that left it there has learned their lesson, today.

I seriously think that a lot of people have Brad's mindset; a bad guy will show up anywhere at any time, and I will be the hero and save the day cuz I carry my gun everywhere. I don't really understand it and I don't agree with it, but I think that's the reasoning behind someone bringing a gun to Sesame Street. 

Yeah I kind of understand this.  I don't have a gun but have been meaning to get one. I'm not a NRA nut but I know a lot of people that are. I don't think I'd reach the point where I'd bring it everywhere, but I get why someone would. At this point, there's been shootings at a movie theater, a mall, and an elementary school.  I wouldn't think that a Sesame Street thing would be all that attractive to one of those nuts, but you never know. 

H is a teacher and I kind of wish he could have a gun with all the school shootings and stuff.  But concealed carry or not, he would get in huge trouble and probably lose his job. It is allowed in Texas (because Texas).  Honestly, I think every school has a kid or two that could snap this way.  The high school he taught at found writing in the bathroom in blood, can't remember what it said but something like everyone will pay/die.  Just people being stupid but you never know what to take seriously. Red Lake high school was not far away and it had a huge shooting that was never really publicized. 

Anyway, kind of glad to hear it was a cop so that it's traceable and they'll face repercussions for that kind of stupid.  But at least it was unloaded.

sophhabobopha

SMFH. People.