Does anyone know how school ratings work?

jenna8984

In our house search, there are about 2 dozen towns within our radius we are looking. I made a list of YES towns which schools rank 7-8 and NO towns which schools rank 3-4. It/'s split about a dozen each. The better school towns are substantially more expensive, like I'm talking 50k for the same house 5 miles away. And I don't know about you, but I'm not like the people on House Hunters who can magically pull 50k out of their asshole. So I'm trying to decide if it's worth it to be in those towns. Honestly, if there were a middle ground I'd be all over it, but there aren't at all.

So anyways, my question is where do those ratings come from and how much do you think they actually matter? I got the ratings from Realtor.com, and I verified on GreatSchools.com. But how much bearing do you think they really have? Do you think with the right at home tutoring/ parenting that it wouldn't matter? Or do you think it really does matter? Obviously it's a high priority for me, but I'm not a teacher so I honestly am clueless about how the ratings work and what makes a school rank lower than another.

  ****hopefully this doesn't fall under the figure it the fuck out on your own category***

sarahufl

We just bought a house in a county where schools drive real estate prices up even more than the $50k you are talking about. My one piece of advice is to not trust what the real estate listings say for schools (Trulia comes to mind) because they aren't always right. Make sure you verify with the county before you commit to anything

jenna8984

@sarahufl I know what you mean....the 9's are 100k over our budget LOL

thisismynickname2

I don't know, but my side question is, are the houses not only $50k more expensive but also are the property taxes substantially more expensive too? 

The way I always saw it, educating your child(ren) well is going to cost. You can live in a less expensive home and area, but pay tuition to private school if the public schools aren't good. You can pay for a more expensive home and higher taxes to get good public school. Either way, the money's gone. 

jenna8984

thisismynickname said:

I don't know, but my side question is, are the houses not only $50k more expensive but also are the property taxes substantially more expensive too? 

 

Yes you're right, the taxes are almost double in the towns as well.

sarahufl

jenna8984 said:

@sarahufl I know what you mean....the 9's are 100k over our budget LOL

You are talking SEVERAL 100k here.....damn, NY metro area.... and the taxes are soooooooo high.

hellosweetie1015

I'm not going to put too much stock into school ratings, because:

A. Those change as their staffing does.

B. They are ALWAYS serving somebody's interest, I feel like. Someone always profits off of a school being rated as "good".

C. A good school for one child is not necessarily a good school for another. Every child's educational needs are different, and what is fine and dandy for Bobby Smith may not be any good at all for Billy Jones.

I'll avoid schools with verifiably low ratings, but other than that I'm going to be supplementing anyway so if the school they're in is not the bestest best, it's not preventing them from learning.

thisismynickname2

Are you interested in private school? Are they "affordable" in your area? 

I'd just do some math. One kid in 13 years of private school is $x thousand dollars, versus however long in a school district where the taxes are $x thousand more than the next district over (say you're there 20-30 years)... how does it shake out?

Also, the public schools. What kind of courses are there? Do the schools have technical and vocational training or are they strictly college prep?  Can you find out the graduation and drop out rates? Can you see if the district teachers are happy or if they have a history of disputes and strikes?  With all these questions, it's really hard to say if the ratings are going to work for you. Very personal decision.  On top of that, have you looked up the crime rates? Good luck! 

photokitty

I live in a real great community with shitty schools. Property values are great and houses sell on average in 9 days. BUT almost everyone send their kids to private, Catholic or charter schools. 

I always figured when I had kids, I'd use the mortgage and tax savings to pay for better schooling options as my kids would not be going to the public schools. 

 That said, if you have a kid who wants to learn I think they can get a good education at most schools, even the low ranking ones, they just have to apply themselves and make opportunities happen - only you and your kids know if they will make that extra effort.

theartistformerlyknownas

Great Schools lists out their methodology here: http://www.greatschools.org/about/ratings.page

Michigan has additional ratings here, which Mass might have as well http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,4615,7-140--310978--,00.html

H and I just debated between three different high school districts in choosing our new house. About the same price disparity between two of them, but the third was most affordable AND still a good school - difference there was purely the larger houses/property taxes of being in "the hills" versus the town. The high school with the lowest rankings/test scores was also the one with the strongest emphasis on sports, and lots of reviews we'd seen in various places spoke to families either moving there specifically so their kid could get an athletic scholarship, or being fed up that athletes got all the special treatment and academics meant crap. We decided that even with tutoring at home and whatever else, we didn't want them to grow up in that kind of atmosphere where academics come second to athletics among their peers, or where arts get cut in favor of sports.

Luckily, being in the town rather than "the hills" allowed us to still save that $50k AND be within walking distance of a 10-rated elementary school and in a 9-rated high school district. I hope you can find that kind of win/win!

KatieinBkln

I am very impressed with the methodology involved in these rankings. The site is amazing; you can search for schools in your area and see how they rate in a variety of areas. And it's not just some overarching (probably for-profit) company that ranks them--they include surveys among parents, teachers, and students, as well.

https://k12.niche.com/rankings/

katiekessler123

This is odd, because as a teacher I'm not aware of this rating system.  Maybe only certain states do it?  I know in my state they actually put out a list of school districts and rank literally every single school district, starting at number 1 and going all the way through every district. It's based on many different things like: student to teacher ratio, state test scores, amount of students on free and reduced lunches, etc.  I will say though, as a teacher that has worked in three different schools that have varied widely, the students that succeed, no matter what the school district, are generally the students who have parents that care and are involved.   

banana468

Ditto looking at the taxes and mill rates in the towns that have higher values.   Plus, look and see if there is any business in there.   Here in CT, there are a few towns that have very high taxes because there aren't any businesses to help support the towns.

The other thing to keep in mind is IMO,you can be a good school system next to a neighboring town of a great one.

DH's hometown is filled with a lot of NYC commuters.   His parents just sold their raised ranch there in 2008 for $600k.   It's insane how much it costs to live there and without a major job change, there's no way we can afford getting in there.

My hometown is 20 miles east of his and it also has a good school system but it's not ranked as high as DH's hometown.

But, after 12 years of public school, we both got into the same college and we both did well there.   So IMO it's important to get a good school system but I don't think it's necessary to forego retirement savings to make it happen. 

jenna8984

Thanks everyone!! I will have to look around and do some research as to what private schools or charter schools are offered in each area and what they might cost. That is a reasonable solution. My parents hated the elementary & middle schools in my town so I went to Catholic school even though I wasn't Catholic. When I got to the public high school, not to sound snobby or anything but I did feel more educated than the peers who came from the public middle school. I would spell check and grammar check my friends' papers because they always had errors. Now obviously that wasn't true of everyone who attended the public middle school, just a portion, but still.

I also hadn't thought about other things such as athletics like lolo pointed out about one district she looked at. Those other factors seem to be ranked A-F on the website that @katieinbkln posted so that's very helpful!!

VulgarGirl

I know the school ratings for where I grew up were based on test scores. AIMS and whatever the other standardized test scores were. So we got great ratings because we could all pass standardized tests. Because they taught to the test. No critical thinking required!

I still dealt with shithead bullies and teachers who had really great advice like "ignore them" and "walk away". I still had problems in class because I have ADD and get bored easily. There 29 other students in the class. The teacher had no time for me. Sure I was ahead in reading, and did great in science. I still can't fucking tell you when anything in history took place and struggled with math for years before find out I actually have dyscalculia when I was in college. In grade school and high school I was just told to "try harder" and "ask better questions". But we had an A+ rating.

Honestly I think the best way to find out about the school is go walk the neighborhood and talk to parents. Like don't go knock on doors, that's weird, but just if they're out walking around. Go see a play at one of the schools and talk to the parents there, or sports game, something like that. Get real honest feedback from people actually sending their children there.

theartistformerlyknownas

MagicInk said:

I know the school ratings for where I grew up were based on test scores. AIMS and whatever the other standardized test scores were. So we got great ratings because we could all pass standardized tests. Because they taught to the test. No critical thinking required!

I still dealt with shithead bullies and teachers who had really great advice like "ignore them" and "walk away". I still had problems in class because I have ADD and get bored easily. There 29 other students in the class. The teacher had no time for me. Sure I was ahead in reading, and did great in science. I still can't fucking tell you when anything in history took place and struggled with math for years before find out I actually have dyscalculia when I was in college. In grade school and high school I was just told to "try harder" and "ask better questions". But we had an A+ rating.

Honestly I think the best way to find out about the school is go walk the neighborhood and talk to parents. Like don't go knock on doors, that's weird, but just if they're out walking around. Go see a play at one of the schools and talk to the parents there, or sports game, something like that. Get real honest feedback from people actually sending their children there.

This was a big thing we considered in addition to the overall rating, was the student:teacher ratio. The schools our house is assigned to range from 17:1 to 21:1, so the kids have a little more chance for personalized attention than the 30:1 schools might.

FiancB

Don't put too much stock into them.  The school H used to teach at has a really high rating and that's probably just because it's in a small town and has a decent ratio. It's a mess otherwise. I think it has a 7.

The school he's at now has a pretty low rating but it also has a 1:1 ipad program and it has a really good special education program. I think it has a 3 or 4.

Frankly, if the school is mostly white, it's going to have a pretty good rating, which is pretty messed up. I agree a lot of it is test scores but that whole thing is waaaay more complicated than simply slapping a number on each school. 

OTOH there was one school that received a 2 I think and he did some sleuthing and found that yep, avoid that place like the plague. 

katiekessler123

jenna8984- From my personal experience, I would agree that the private/Catholic school I taught at was the best of the three.  Thus far I have been at a Catholic school for two years, a charter school (inner city) for one year, and a public school (a very good public school in a higher income district) for four years.  Of all of those schools, the academics at the Catholic school were most rigorous and the expectations were the highest. With that said, the parental involvement in that school was also the highest.

Bubblegum5586

We bought our house in a town that is rank 5-6 for the schools which I was ok with. I know the kid themself and the parents also have a big role in the child's education. The weird part is when I tell people where I live I often get comments about what a nice town it is and great school system! So the general public here possibly perceives it better then it is? Or is the rating off?

STARMOON44

Whether good public schools are worth the additional money is going to vary dramatically based on your location (where I grew up 100% worth it- houses in the best districts are the only ones that continued to sell at a profit in a matter of days in 2007-2009).

But generally I don't think parenting makes up for a not great school. It helps sure but awesome parent + average school to my mind doesn't equal awesome parent + awesome school. I think it all comes down to priorities though. I'm a hard core academics person so I'd go for a 70's brown kitchen and great schools but there are lots of options out there.

julieanne912

I would also think about how the city will expand by the time you have kids (unless you already do?).  Where we just moved, we are outside of the city limits but the school district we are in is super over crowded.  The town was 9,000 people in mid 1990s.  It's now 70,000.  So obviously, the schools aren't going to be able to keep up for awhile.  But, I'm figuring (and hoping) that by the time we have a school aged kid, the district will have caught up and will have put in more schools.  Also, a few of our neighbors have school aged kids and despite the ratings online, they're pretty happy with the schools their kids are in.

jenna8984

julieanne912 said:

I would also think about how the city will expand by the time you have kids (unless you already do?).  Where we just moved, we are outside of the city limits but the school district we are in is super over crowded.  The town was 9,000 people in mid 1990s.  It's now 70,000.  So obviously, the schools aren't going to be able to keep up for awhile.  But, I'm figuring (and hoping) that by the time we have a school aged kid, the district will have caught up and will have put in more schools.  Also, a few of our neighbors have school aged kids and despite the ratings online, they're pretty happy with the schools their kids are in.

Wow that is huge growth! My town, and basically every town around here are 15k people and have been since the 1950's. There are only that many homes in these small towns and no where to build so they won't be growing at all.

sarahufl

STARMOON44 said:

Whether good public schools are worth the additional money is going to vary dramatically based on your location (where I grew up 100% worth it- houses in the best districts are the only ones that continued to sell at a profit in a matter of days in 2007-2009).

But generally I don't think parenting makes up for a not great school. It helps sure but awesome parent + average school to my mind doesn't equal awesome parent + awesome school. I think it all comes down to priorities though. I'm a hard core academics person so I'd go for a 70's brown kitchen and great schools but there are lots of options out there.

This is a really good point. Schools will dramatically effect your ability to re-sell down the road.

thisismynickname2

KatieinBkln said:

I am very impressed with the methodology involved in these rankings. The site is amazing; you can search for schools in your area and see how they rate in a variety of areas. And it's not just some overarching (probably for-profit) company that ranks them--they include surveys among parents, teachers, and students, as well.

https://k12.niche.com/rankings/

Sidenote! I looked up my high school and it has a B-minus. I'm shocked. I felt like I had an excellent education. Some of the reviews are kind of ridiculous like, "Doesn't have a pool," and "the building's old."  Uh... It does have entirely new sports complexes sans pool in the last 12 years and the building is not run down nor falling apart. I think it got knocked for diversity too, but the county isn't that diverse either, so. "Lots of homework." Well, duh? It's college-prep?

For future baby-making plans I looked up all the schools in my current zip code and they're all B+ or lower. 

Cool site though! 

KatieinBkln

thisismynickname said:

KatieinBkln said:

I am very impressed with the methodology involved in these rankings. The site is amazing; you can search for schools in your area and see how they rate in a variety of areas. And it's not just some overarching (probably for-profit) company that ranks them--they include surveys among parents, teachers, and students, as well.

https://k12.niche.com/rankings/

Sidenote! I looked up my high school and it has a B-minus. I'm shocked. I felt like I had an excellent education. Some of the reviews are kind of ridiculous like, "Doesn't have a pool," and "the building's old."  Uh... It does have entirely new sports complexes sans pool in the last 12 years and the building is not run down nor falling apart. I think it got knocked for diversity too, but the county isn't that diverse either, so. "Lots of homework." Well, duh? It's college-prep?

For future baby-making plans I looked up all the schools in my current zip code and they're all B+ or lower. 

Cool site though! 

People have such odd ideas about what is crucial!

But honestly, I think I could work with a B- or better. I think it's when you start getting into the Cs and Ds that it becomes harder to overcome a school's shortcomings with parental support.

At the end of the day I think it's probably best to look at the "success rates" of kids who you believe will be on the same track as your own. If that means a 90% college acceptance rate, or a 90% job placement rate, or a fantastic special education program, then I think it's smartest to hone in on those things. Personally, I will want high schools that focus on rigorous, college-level academics, but elementary schools that focus more on social and personal development (these horror stories of first graders with hours and hours of homework freak me out, because that is not what first grade is supposed to be about). 

huskypuppy14

KatieinBkln said:

KatieinBkln said:

I am very impressed with the methodology involved in these rankings. The site is amazing; you can search for schools in your area and see how they rate in a variety of areas. And it's not just some overarching (probably for-profit) company that ranks them--they include surveys among parents, teachers, and students, as well.

https://k12.niche.com/rankings/

Sidenote! I looked up my high school and it has a B-minus. I'm shocked. I felt like I had an excellent education. Some of the reviews are kind of ridiculous like, "Doesn't have a pool," and "the building's old."  Uh... It does have entirely new sports complexes sans pool in the last 12 years and the building is not run down nor falling apart. I think it got knocked for diversity too, but the county isn't that diverse either, so. "Lots of homework." Well, duh? It's college-prep?

For future baby-making plans I looked up all the schools in my current zip code and they're all B+ or lower. 

Cool site though! 

People have such odd ideas about what is crucial!

But honestly, I think I could work with a B- or better. I think it's when you start getting into the Cs and Ds that it becomes harder to overcome a school's shortcomings with parental support.

At the end of the day I think it's probably best to look at the "success rates" of kids who you believe will be on the same track as your own. If that means a 90% college acceptance rate, or a 90% job placement rate, or a fantastic special education program, then I think it's smartest to hone in on those things. Personally, I will want high schools that focus on rigorous, college-level academics, but elementary schools that focus more on social and personal development (these horror stories of first graders with hours and hours of homework freak me out, because that is not what first grade is supposed to be about). 

I agree. If the elementary school is a 5, so what? I do feel it's important that the high school has a good rating, because that can determine your kid's college success.

jenna8984

This is also a total sidenote that's not really related but there's a private high school in my area that charges.......$32,000 per year. FOR HIGH SCHOOL. I just cannot get over that- that is more than my state university costs. I was actually friends in college with a boy who went there and all I could think was what a waste to spend $120k on high school and end up in the same college as me from the D rated public school!

theartistformerlyknownas

jenna8984 said:

This is also a total sidenote that's not really related but there's a private high school in my area that charges.......$32,000 per year. FOR HIGH SCHOOL. I just cannot get over that- that is more than my state university costs. I was actually friends in college with a boy who went there and all I could think was what a waste to spend $120k on high school and end up in the same college as me from the D rated public school!

Yeah... lil BIL goes to a school that's over $20k per year. HE'S IN THIRD GRADE. He's there on a grant though.

bethsmiles

MagicInk said:

I know the school ratings for where I grew up were based on test scores. AIMS and whatever the other standardized test scores were. So we got great ratings because we could all pass standardized tests. Because they taught to the test. No critical thinking required!

I still dealt with shithead bullies and teachers who had really great advice like "ignore them" and "walk away". I still had problems in class because I have ADD and get bored easily. There 29 other students in the class. The teacher had no time for me. Sure I was ahead in reading, and did great in science. I still can't fucking tell you when anything in history took place and struggled with math for years before find out I actually have dyscalculia when I was in college. In grade school and high school I was just told to "try harder" and "ask better questions". But we had an A+ rating.

Honestly I think the best way to find out about the school is go walk the neighborhood and talk to parents. Like don't go knock on doors, that's weird, but just if they're out walking around. Go see a play at one of the schools and talk to the parents there, or sports game, something like that. Get real honest feedback from people actually sending their children there.

This is basically what my mom did when she pulled me out of private school. She spent about a month going to different schools and talking to the teachers/principles and talking to friends/family members who kids went to various schools and then waivered me into the best one. And it really was fantastic even though it probably wasn't rated the best. It wasn't in the nicest neighborhood and a lot of the kids came from struggling families. I know a lot of people looked down on the school just because it was in a poorer part of town. But the people who worked there were really amazing and did a lot to give the kids that went there their best chance to succeed. There was a lot of personal attention to the students, music programs, the principle knew every single student by name and spent a lot of time forming connections with the students. You wouldn't know any of this just from a rating or judging it by how expensive the neighborhood was but I can't imagine better elementary school to send your kids to.

sarahufl

lolo883 said:

jenna8984 said:

This is also a total sidenote that's not really related but there's a private high school in my area that charges.......$32,000 per year. FOR HIGH SCHOOL. I just cannot get over that- that is more than my state university costs. I was actually friends in college with a boy who went there and all I could think was what a waste to spend $120k on high school and end up in the same college as me from the D rated public school!

Yeah... lil BIL goes to a school that's over $20k per year. HE'S IN THIRD GRADE. He's there on a grant though.

This is one of the reasons we left Manhattan. My friend teaches 3rd grade. Tuition is $40k/year. And some families have multiple kids in the school.

FiancB

jenna8984 said:

This is also a total sidenote that's not really related but there's a private high school in my area that charges.......$32,000 per year. FOR HIGH SCHOOL. I just cannot get over that- that is more than my state university costs. I was actually friends in college with a boy who went there and all I could think was what a waste to spend $120k on high school and end up in the same college as me from the D rated public school!

DH interviewed at a school like this... sad thing is, teachers make about the same as the tuition.  I'm suspicious of the idea that these schools are any better than public- especially since my own private school k-8 education was less than stellar and really only was successful at making me suicidal (kidding... sort of...okay not really)