S/O of recent reads- Divergent Trilogy (includes spoilers)

thisismynickname2

abcdevonn you had mentioned recently if folks had read Allegiant to let you know....

I just plowed through not only all three of the trilogy, but also the four short stories written from Four's perspective. 

AUGH!

SPOILERS

I am super bothered that Tris died. I get that it played into the themes of sacrifice and bravery and so forth, but it just makes me feel awful for Tobias. Especially reading the short stories from his perspective and knowing more about his character, for God's sake, let the guy be happy for once. Furthermore, Allegiant bothered me because both characters were written with the same voice. Whether that's poor writing or intentional, to show how good the two are together, I don't know. But I would forget who the narrator was. This was better in the four "Four" short stories though. 

I also think Tobias is a more compelling character than Tris. Tris is your formulaic heroine and I don't see much motivation for acting how she acts, but in Tobias I see much more motivation for his actions and he seems a more natural protagonist for the overall story. 

Oh, and Theo James is my new man crush and thankfully not too young for me.

 

emmaaa

I loved the Trilogy and the Four short stories also. I breezed through them.

I was super pissed Tris died even though I felt it coming. 

ChemFanatic25

Oh jeez, I should NOT have opened this thread :-( I am on the last book and halfway through. Damn damn damn.

 

Edit: as you can tell, common sense is not my forte.

thisismynickname2

ChemFanatic25 said:

Oh jeez, I should NOT have opened this thread :-( I am on the last book and halfway through. Damn damn damn.

 

Edit: as you can tell, common sense is not my forte.

Ugh, sorry! I tried to put in a lot of space after spoilers! 

After watching the first movie, I went on Wikipedia to read the overall plot. I spoiled it for myself and then blurted things out to DH too. He was pissed; I didn't realize he enjoyed the movie as much as I did and cared about the final outcome. He's working on the books now himself. 

hellosweetie1015

I really, truly feel that Tris dying was absolutely useless to the story. Like. It could have been done SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. Those are the only books I'm not intending to replace - Allegiant made me so mad that I don't care to reread them. I LOVED Divergent, and liked Insurgent (but not quite as much), but Allegiant RUINED it for me. I don't want to see the movies, don't care to reread the books, and don't know that I'll be buying anything else of Veronica Roth's. It was just SO unnecessary.

I had the same problem with Tris and Four reading as if they were one person in Allegiant, as well. It was an issue, but I could *see* what she was trying to do. They both came from Abnegation, which means the values they were taught as children in the schoolyard and such were similar. It just didn't play well - they had no defining characteristics. 

Four was definitely the stronger of her POVs. I honestly think if she'd written the entirety of the series from Four's perspective, Tris' death would have made more sense. But the "main" POV character dying - it felt like it was done purely for shock value. This is a character you've invested time in. If a POV character dies, or even a main secondary, YOU WANT IT TO MAKE SENSE. You want it to fit with the entire character. And it DID NOT.

/end rant

GoldenPenguin

I am totally in the minority here (and I know from discussing this with other friends) but I didn't mind that Tris died in the end. I actually thought it was far more realistic of an ending than what happened with The Hunger Games. THAT one pissed me off. 

lacqueredlover

I loved the first 2 books.  HATED the last one so much.

hellosweetie1015

GoldenPenguin said:

I am totally in the minority here (and I know from discussing this with other friends) but I didn't mind that Tris died in the end. I actually thought it was far more realistic of an ending than what happened with The Hunger Games. THAT one pissed me off. 

Yeah that was a shitty ending too. 

littlepep

hellosweetie1015 said: GoldenPenguin said:I am totally in the minority here (and I know from discussing this with other friends) but I didn't mind that Tris died in the end. I actually thought it was far more realistic of an ending than what happened with The Hunger Games. THAT one pissed me off. 

Yeah that was a shitty ending too. 
BOXBOXBOXBOX


Why do the third books of trilogies seem to always suck? The third book in the Maze Runner series was meh too. Although, I didn't hate it so I guess that's something. 

princessgracekelly

hellosweetie1015 said:

I really, truly feel that Tris dying was absolutely useless to the story. Like. It could have been done SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. Those are the only books I'm not intending to replace - Allegiant made me so mad that I don't care to reread them. I LOVED Divergent, and liked Insurgent (but not quite as much), but Allegiant RUINED it for me. I don't want to see the movies, don't care to reread the books, and don't know that I'll be buying anything else of Veronica Roth's. It was just SO unnecessary.

I had the same problem with Tris and Four reading as if they were one person in Allegiant, as well. It was an issue, but I could *see* what she was trying to do. They both came from Abnegation, which means the values they were taught as children in the schoolyard and such were similar. It just didn't play well - they had no defining characteristics. 

Four was definitely the stronger of her POVs. I honestly think if she'd written the entirety of the series from Four's perspective, Tris' death would have made more sense. But the "main" POV character dying - it felt like it was done purely for shock value. This is a character you've invested time in. If a POV character dies, or even a main secondary, YOU WANT IT TO MAKE SENSE. You want it to fit with the entire character. And it DID NOT.

/end rant

To the bolded: Veronica Roth wrote herself into a corner, and Tris' death probably was done purely for shock value. Roth has this great premise but had trouble coming up with the "why?" of her premise (I kind of sped through Allegiant just to finish it, but that genetics stuff probably wouldn't have made sense to me even if I had read normally), and that's where she lost me. Plus, post-Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, having the main character sacrifice themselves by dying seems a little ham-fisted.

I also listened to Allegiant as an audiobook with a male voice reading for Tobias and a female voice reading for Tris, so I didn't get as much of the "Tris and Four have the same narrative voice" thing, but I believe that thinking she gave the same narrative voice to both of them to show how alike they are is giving her too much credit.

littlepep

thisismynickname said:

ChemFanatic25 said:

Oh jeez, I should NOT have opened this thread :-( I am on the last book and halfway through. Damn damn damn.

 

Edit: as you can tell, common sense is not my forte.

Ugh, sorry! I tried to put in a lot of space after spoilers! 

After watching the first movie, I went on Wikipedia to read the overall plot. I spoiled it for myself and then blurted things out to DH too. He was pissed; I didn't realize he enjoyed the movie as much as I did and cared about the final outcome. He's working on the books now himself. 

I'm glad you posted this because I've been considering reading a summary of the third book for a while. I read the first two books a while ago, but I've heard the third book sucked a lot so I've never read it. Don't really intend to either so I'm glad to know what happens haha. 

lacqueredlover

I actually really liked the Legend series and thought that all 3 books were equally strong

hellosweetie1015

lacqueredlover said:

I actually really liked the Legend series and thought that all 3 books were equally strong

By Marie Lu? I read the first one - it was one of the first Nook Books I got - and REALLY enjoyed it, but I haven't read the rest of them yet. I really should break the Nook back out. 

bethsmiles

@hellosweetie1015 's rant sums up my exact feelings on the last book. I really enjoyed the first two and the last one was really disappointing. I didn't bother seeing the movies.

@littlepep- I really loved The Maze Runner series. I'm definitely in the minority where I enjoyed it much more than Divergent or HG. The third book wasn't as good as the first two but it didn't leave me disappointed either. Did you read the prequel as well?

lacqueredlover

hellosweetie1015 said:

lacqueredlover said:

I actually really liked the Legend series and thought that all 3 books were equally strong

By Marie Lu? I read the first one - it was one of the first Nook Books I got - and REALLY enjoyed it, but I haven't read the rest of them yet. I really should break the Nook back out. 

Yep by Marie Lu.  I also just read her book The Young Elites which is super different but really liked it as well.

littlepep

bethsmiles I really did like the Maze Runner books. I spend through the first two but the third was overall meh. Like I said, I didn't hate it, but it definitely wasn't as good as the first two. The ending was disappointing either though. I didn't read the prequal. Was it worth reading?

bethsmiles

@littlepep - It was alright. It's really short so it doesn't take much time to speed through. It was interesting to get more backstory on how society got to the point it was at in the series.

littlepep

bethsmiles said:

@littlepep - It was alright. It's really short so it doesn't take much time to speed through. It was interesting to get more backstory on how society got to the point it was at in the series.

I'll have to check it out then! 

littlepep

lacqueredlover said:

I actually really liked the Legend series and thought that all 3 books were equally strong

OOH MORE BOOKS. I will have to check this out. 

melbenso

thisismynickname said:

Furthermore, Allegiant bothered me because both characters were written with the same voice. Whether that's poor writing or intentional, to show how good the two are together, I don't know. But I would forget who the narrator was.

I had the same problem.  Especially since there was no real pattern to the switch in perspective.  I would constantly think it was being narrated by one character and then half way through the chapter realize it was the other - usually when they referenced each other.  I didn't care for Allegiant at all.  As one of my friends who read the books said, it was like the author just gave up - lost in her own overarching plot - and started making up a bunch of ridiculous crap to make the series a trilogy.

I did enjoy the first two books though.  But they were no Hunger Games...

thisismynickname2

Yay, more book suggestions.  Also, I've never read much dystopian society stuff (depressing!), but I think I'm going on a kick.... 

When I read books that are post-apocalyptic in some way, not because of aliens but because of humans, it just really freaks me out because I can see those things actually happening. That's how much faith in humanity I have I guess!  The Divergent story, with the genetic purity and stuff... I could see that happening. 

With Allegiant, I'm glad they explained a bit more about how Chicago got the way it was. I was really curious why the river and lake were gone and what happened to the population. 

behsco90

I did not like the last book. I felt like she lost them as characters. They felt super whiny and woe is me. I am also pissed Tris died. I really hope the movies do a better job.

bethsmiles

lacqueredlover said:

I actually really liked the Legend series and thought that all 3 books were equally strong

I've had the first one sitting in my to-read queue for quite awhile now. I think I need to bump it up the list.

I'm trying to force my way through Frankenstein right now. And I'm maybe a third of the way through The Casual Vacancy but I'm having trouble really getting into it.   

princessgracekelly

thisismynickname said:

Yay, more book suggestions.  Also, I've never read much dystopian society stuff (depressing!), but I think I'm going on a kick.... 

When I read books that are post-apocalyptic in some way, not because of aliens but because of humans, it just really freaks me out because I can see those things actually happening. That's how much faith in humanity I have I guess!  The Divergent story, with the genetic purity and stuff... I could see that happening. 

With Allegiant, I'm glad they explained a bit more about how Chicago got the way it was. I was really curious why the river and lake were gone and what happened to the population. 

Sorry not sorry to make everything about Harry Potter, but J.K. Rowling handled genetic purity wayyy better than Veronica Roth did. The Death Eaters are basically wizard Nazis. The Divergents were considered "bad" until they . . . weren't? It was hard to believe that the higher-ups would let the genetically-imperfect faction people trash the perfect Divergents that they needed. Instead, they just tented their fingers and were like, "Yes, this is proof that they are imperfect . . ."

I do agree that there's a degree of cynicism that leads me to enjoy dystopian novels. Like I consider Fahrenheit 451 to be one of my favorite books, even though last time I "read" it, it was through an audiobook with earbuds, which I think made Ray Bradbury roll over in his grave.

bethsmiles

@princessgracekelly - everything should be about Harry Potter And I absolutely agree that J.K Rowling did a much better job with the genetic purity idea than Roth did. Her experience at Amnesty International probably gave her more experience to draw on for taking on that subject matter than Roth has.

hellosweetie1015

The thing re: Harry Potter is that the entire story was cohesive, from the first page of Sorcerer's / Philosopher's Stone to the last page of Deathly Hallows. Every piece made sense eventually. Everything has an explanation. There are NO points where things do not make sense within the world. HP set an extremely high mark, and a lot of authors are reaching for it and not coming close. The cohesion fails. And it's hard - I've got a trilogy that's severely disjointed and really lacks that overarching sense of cohesion. The difference is that I see that, even with early drafts. I think Roth didn't see her cohesion failing until Allegiant started coming together, at which point she was too far on to stop.

Which, I think, is an issue in YA publishing in general, and specifically certain genres in YA. Dystopian YA was exploding when Divergent came out, and I think they rushed the next two to keep it relevant, because with genre fiction the tide of popularity changes so very quickly. You can see the rush in urban fantasy as well - Cassandra Clare and Holly Black both had books releasing every six months or so there for a while. Maggie Stiefvater is dropping at least two books this year, too, I think. On the other hand, John Green and Sarah Dessen, who write contemporary YA, don't have that press for books. The Fault in Our Stars, for example, released in 2012, and he hasn't had a new book since. Sarah Dessen has about two years between books.

So I think the pressure to stay relevant is on genre writers much heavier than it is literary authors, and some are better up to the challenge than others.

Doesn't stop me raging when a book falls short of expectations, though.

[Deleted User]

hellosweetie1015 said:

I really, truly feel that Tris dying was absolutely useless to the story. Like. It could have been done SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. Those are the only books I'm not intending to replace - Allegiant made me so mad that I don't care to reread them. I LOVED Divergent, and liked Insurgent (but not quite as much), but Allegiant RUINED it for me. I don't want to see the movies, don't care to reread the books, and don't know that I'll be buying anything else of Veronica Roth's. It was just SO unnecessary.

I had the same problem with Tris and Four reading as if they were one person in Allegiant, as well. It was an issue, but I could *see* what she was trying to do. They both came from Abnegation, which means the values they were taught as children in the schoolyard and such were similar. It just didn't play well - they had no defining characteristics. 

Four was definitely the stronger of her POVs. I honestly think if she'd written the entirety of the series from Four's perspective, Tris' death would have made more sense. But the "main" POV character dying - it felt like it was done purely for shock value. This is a character you've invested time in. If a POV character dies, or even a main secondary, YOU WANT IT TO MAKE SENSE. You want it to fit with the entire character. And it DID NOT.

/end rant

@HelloSweetie1015 you put all of my feelings about the last book into a perfect package! I agree with everything. It truly, deeply bothered me that she only used Four's voice in the last book. I think it broke continuity. It made me suspicious off the bat. Like PPs have said, they do sound extremely similar, and I get that they are imperfect reflections of the same lifestyle, but I think we kinda already see that without delving into his head. Because they sounded so similar, I skimmed through sections when they just retold the same stories. It got on my nerves. And I do not, and probably will not ever understand the purpose of killing Tris. If these books were a social commentary, why did she cop out in the end and kill off the main character for shock value? These weren't fluffy books, they dealt with heavy, socio-political issues...and then it just ended in a crappy-teen-soap-opera death. Yes, she is sacrificing herself for the good of the community, and yes, she "lost everything," but I don't see why that means she has to die. Her actions would not have been diminished if she had lived. Just URG!

I write YA fiction and was playing around with dystopian stuff when this came out, and when I read it, I was so ticked off. I think it reinforces the stereotype that YA is only surface-level, when that is not true at all. (Okay, some is, but most is not.) 

ChemFanatic25

thisismynickname said:

ChemFanatic25 said:

Oh jeez, I should NOT have opened this thread :-( I am on the last book and halfway through. Damn damn damn.

 

Edit: as you can tell, common sense is not my forte.

Ugh, sorry! I tried to put in a lot of space after spoilers! 

After watching the first movie, I went on Wikipedia to read the overall plot. I spoiled it for myself and then blurted things out to DH too. He was pissed; I didn't realize he enjoyed the movie as much as I did and cared about the final outcome. He's working on the books now himself. 

It's alright, totally my fault. I skimmed through and I saw "Tris dying" and I'm like WHAT!? Hahaha I haven't even read anyone else's responses to this thread. Though to be honest even if I did, I would still enjoy the books. I do the same thing as you where I'll read the plot of a movie or book and then read/watch and still enjoy the story.

hellosweetie1015

abcdevonn said:

hellosweetie1015 said:

I really, truly feel that Tris dying was absolutely useless to the story. Like. It could have been done SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. Those are the only books I'm not intending to replace - Allegiant made me so mad that I don't care to reread them. I LOVED Divergent, and liked Insurgent (but not quite as much), but Allegiant RUINED it for me. I don't want to see the movies, don't care to reread the books, and don't know that I'll be buying anything else of Veronica Roth's. It was just SO unnecessary.

I had the same problem with Tris and Four reading as if they were one person in Allegiant, as well. It was an issue, but I could *see* what she was trying to do. They both came from Abnegation, which means the values they were taught as children in the schoolyard and such were similar. It just didn't play well - they had no defining characteristics. 

Four was definitely the stronger of her POVs. I honestly think if she'd written the entirety of the series from Four's perspective, Tris' death would have made more sense. But the "main" POV character dying - it felt like it was done purely for shock value. This is a character you've invested time in. If a POV character dies, or even a main secondary, YOU WANT IT TO MAKE SENSE. You want it to fit with the entire character. And it DID NOT.

/end rant

HelloSweetie1015 you put all of my feelings about the last book into a perfect package! I agree with everything. It truly, deeply bothered me that she only used Four's voice in the last book. I think it broke continuity. It made me suspicious off the bat. Like PPs have said, they do sound extremely similar, and I get that they are imperfect reflections of the same lifestyle, but I think we kinda already see that without delving into his head. Because they sounded so similar, I skimmed through sections when they just retold the same stories. It got on my nerves. And I do not, and probably will not ever understand the purpose of killing Tris. If these books were a social commentary, why did she cop out in the end and kill off the main character for shock value? These weren't fluffy books, they dealt with heavy, socio-political issues...and then it just ended in a crappy-teen-soap-opera death. Yes, she is sacrificing herself for the good of the community, and yes, she "lost everything," but I don't see why that means she has to die. Her actions would not have been diminished if she had lived. Just URG!

I write YA fiction and was playing around with dystopian stuff when this came out, and when I read it, I was so ticked off. I think it reinforces the stereotype that YA is only surface-level, when that is not true at all. (Okay, some is, but most is not.) 

YES. YA can be very surface-level, but there are a TON of absolutely fantastic, thought-provoking reads in the realm that are being discounted BECAUSE of the surface-level books. I counted Divergent among the thought-provokers, myself. Unfortunately, Insurgent dropped off a little, and then Allegiant blew holes all through it.

Edited for the damn boxes to come back.

Dreamergirl8812

I cried like hell when Tris died, but only because of Four.

It's crazy that The Giver, Lord of the Flies, and Flowers in the Attic are all considered YA books. I need to re-read those...

[Deleted User]

Dreamergirl8812 said:

I cried like hell when Tris died, but only because of Four.

It's crazy that The Giver, Lord of the Flies, and Flowers in the Attic are all considered YA books. I need to re-read those...

I cried too. I just felt so horrendous that it happened and I couldn't believe it. So, I guess she largely got the response she was hoping for, but once I stopped being upset I was just furious hahaha