Spinoff: Too Many Vaccines?

ohmrs2014

So I hope this can be a healthy debate and not one where we tear each others heads off for opinions.

The vaccine threads had me thinking a bit, especially since I am expecting my own little peanut in 5 months.

Let me start this by saying I am getting my child vaccinated and DH is on board.  We were both vaccinated and turned out fine, as were our parents and so forth.

But I do know people who question and wonder about the amount of vaccines children need to receive now versus when we were all children.  For example, when I was a child, there was no chicken pox vaccine and now, depending on the state, its mandatory that children receive the chicken pox vaccine before entering school.

I know people that do believe that there are certain things children should be exposed to in order to build up their natural immunity, chicken pox being one of them.

Thoughts?

Edited for more clarity.

flutteringinfl

I don't believe there's any reason to "naturally" expose someone to a disease, honestly. Chicken pox can kill. It does kill. Why risk it when vaccines are statistically safer? What do you think are the advantages of exposing someone to the actual disease rather than vaccinating them? Just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it's better.

When I was in college, I was getting ready to go on a study abroad trip. There were no required vaccines, but my doctor recommended some. Since they weren't covered by my insurance, I asked my parents what they thought I should do. My dad said, "Well, I don't know. You're putting all that stuff into your body, always risky there."

I called my mom second and told her what my dad said. Her response was, "Sure, every time you inject something into your body there's a small risk. But you know what's a riskier thing to put into your body? The actual disease."

Your pediatrician can probably offer you more solid evidence of why the chicken pox vaccine is a good idea, but as a layperson, I just don't see the reason to refuse a vaccine that's been proven safe.

ohmrs2014

I see your point.  And the number of deaths have dropped drastically since the chicken pox vaccine was introduced. 

I'm not saying that we won't vaccinate against chicken pox, but more of just curious as to what others thought.

southernbelle0915

I actually never had chicken pox or the vaccine as a kid (I don't think it was standard) and got the vaccine with I was in college. I'm glad the adult version was available because my doctor said that chicken pox in adults can be much more severe than in kids. 

As far as the chicken pox vaccine for kids, I would rather give them a vaccine than force them to have the actual disease. I've heard it's miserable. Either way, they come out on the other end as immune. Forcing them to have the actual disease has a lot more risks and side effects than giving them the vaccine. 

Also, unless I quarantine the kid while they have the actual disease, they are a risk to others. Since not everyone had chicken pox as a kid or has gotten the vaccine, these kids are at risk for spreading the disease to vulnerable people.

So yes, I will be vaccinating with all the standard vaccines. And also chicken pox for the reasons above.

BouxRadley

You also have to remember that times are different than they were say, 20 years ago. There are new diseases, new strains, new medical technology telling us everyday that what we thought we knew wasn't actually correct. All vaccines are created for a reason. Prevention. And I've always been all for it. 

flutteringinfl

southernbelle0915 said:

I actually never had chicken pox or the vaccine (I don't think it was standard when I was a kid) and got the vaccine with I was in college. I'm glad the adult version was available because my doctor said that chicken pox in adults can be much more severe than in kids. 

As far as the chicken pox vaccine for kids, I would rather give them a vaccine than force them to have the actual disease. I've heard it's miserable. Either way, they come out on the other end as immune. Forcing them to have the actual disease has a lot more risks and side effects than giving them the vaccine. 

Also, unless I quarantine the kid while they have the actual disease, they are a risk to others. Since not everyone had chicken pox as a kid or has gotten the vaccine, these kids are at risk for spreading the disease to vulnerable people.

So yes, I will be vaccinating with all the standard vaccines. And also chicken pox for the reasons above.

Herd immunity FTW! Vaccinating is important not just for your children, but other people's children, and other adult people as well.

ohmrs2014

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

flutteringinfl

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

I'm curious then as to why, despite your personal experience, you still think (or thought, maybe?) that natural exposure to chicken pox is better.

TrixieJess

If you are concerned about the amount of vaccines at any given time, you can ask your doctor to modify the schedule. 

Our doctor's office does 3 needles at 1 year and I asked that one of them be put off to the 15 month appointment with the chicken pox vaccine. NBD.

I was vaccinated as a child but I still got mumps and measles...not fun. 

TrixieJess

BTW, since we are talking about vaccines:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tetanus-infection-in-ontario-child-prompts-calls-from-worried-parents-1.3095824

This was a news story this past weekend.

ohmrs2014

flutteringinfl said:

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

I'm curious then as to why, despite your personal experience, you still think (or thought, maybe?) that natural exposure to chicken pox is better.

I think it was more of a question that I wanted to pose to other people.  To see what others thoughts about certain vaccines.  I know plenty of people that do believe that natural exposure to certain things, like the chicken pox, is better than the vaccine.  Maybe I should edit my original post so that it doesn't come off like its me LOL.

  

arrippa

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

My dad never got the MMR shot so he ended up with measles. He was so sick that he was hospitalized and almost died. But since my mom, my brother and I all got the MMR shot, we did not contract it. After seeing that, I was always in the vaccinate the heck of out my kids.

flutteringinfl

ohmrs2014 said:

flutteringinfl said:

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

I'm curious then as to why, despite your personal experience, you still think (or thought, maybe?) that natural exposure to chicken pox is better.

I think it was more of a question that I wanted to pose to other people.  To see what others thoughts about certain vaccines.  I know plenty of people that do believe that natural exposure to certain things, like the chicken pox, is better than the vaccine.  Maybe I should edit my original post so that it doesn't come off like its me LOL.

  

"I do believe that there are certain things children should be exposed to in order to build up their natural immunity, chicken pox being one of them."

I mean...kind of hard to misinterpret that as anything other than your beliefs, since you said, "I do believe."

stefuhknee

My son is 2 and we've pretty much been on board with the regular schedule for vaccinations that our pediatrician has recommended. He spreads them out enough so our toddler isn't getting prodded on every visit.

I don't really see the benefit in having our child develop a natural immunity to any disease that is already on the vaccination schedule. I had the chicken pox as a child and it was not fun. I've still got scars on my body from the pox marks. I would never want my child to endure that when he doesnt have to. 

ohmrs2014

flutteringinfl said:

ohmrs2014 said:

flutteringinfl said:

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

I'm curious then as to why, despite your personal experience, you still think (or thought, maybe?) that natural exposure to chicken pox is better.

I think it was more of a question that I wanted to pose to other people.  To see what others thoughts about certain vaccines.  I know plenty of people that do believe that natural exposure to certain things, like the chicken pox, is better than the vaccine.  Maybe I should edit my original post so that it doesn't come off like its me LOL.

  

"I do believe that there are certain things children should be exposed to in order to build up their natural immunity, chicken pox being one of them."

I mean...kind of hard to misinterpret that as anything other than your beliefs, since you said, "I do believe."

That's what happens when I'm at work.  I type fast and not reread what I type.  

southernbelle0915

stefuhknee said:

My son is 2 and we've pretty much been on board with the regular schedule for vaccinations that our pediatrician has recommended. He spreads them out enough so our toddler isn't getting prodded on every visit.

I don't really see the benefit in having our child develop a natural immunity to any disease that is already on the vaccination schedule. I had the chicken pox as a child and it was not fun. I've still got scars on my body from the pox marks. I would never want my child to endure that when he doesnt have to. 

You said it better than I did.

Whether the kid gets the vaccine or contracts the disease naturally, they end up immune. So what's better for the kid (and other vulnerable people)? For me, this one is a no brainer.

TrixieJess

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

I had chicken pox when I was 7. I was hospitalized because of the fever that I had and I was unable to keep down food or liquids. There is no good time to get chicken pox. 

The vaccine was a pipe dream when I was a kid, so I didn't get it. My son sure as hell did. He is not going through the same thing I did.

Chicken Pox is highly contagious. When I had it, no one was allowed to come near me. I had to be quarantined to a separate part of our house. 

novella1186

Given the clinical studies I just read, if I had kids I would vaccinate them for varicella [chickepox]. 

I used to think of chickenpox as some itchy red bumps that just go away after a little while. No big deal. I got it when I was too little to even remember having it (I think I was around 1?) and I didn't suffer any complications. 

However, I just read a review of 80 cases of previously healthy children who were admitted to the hospital for complications caused by varicella-- some went into intensive care, and 1 died. The complications can be really serious; respiratory distress, pneumonia, central nervous system complications, soft tissue or skin infections, Reye's syndrome, encephalitis, and cellulitis were the most common. 

There are also implications for the community as a whole; most studies show that when children are vaccinated against a particular illness, a much smaller number of adults end up contracting the illness because of lower exposure rates. This is particularly important for the Varicella virus because severity of symptoms and complication rates increase with age, and pregnant women who contract the virus have a 1 in 3 chance of losing their unborn baby. 

There are also economic implications, especially for developing countries, since 1 hospital admission can cost thousands of dollars and the average length of hospital stay in one review for complications of Varicella was 4.5 days. That puts a burden on families and on local healthcare systems. And so on. 

So yeah, after about 10 minutes of research, I'd vaccinate. 

(Sorry, I can't link or directly quote articles. I used my clinical research credentials to access the studies and we don't have a license to distribute) 

flutteringinfl

southernbelle0915 said:

stefuhknee said:

My son is 2 and we've pretty much been on board with the regular schedule for vaccinations that our pediatrician has recommended. He spreads them out enough so our toddler isn't getting prodded on every visit.

I don't really see the benefit in having our child develop a natural immunity to any disease that is already on the vaccination schedule. I had the chicken pox as a child and it was not fun. I've still got scars on my body from the pox marks. I would never want my child to endure that when he doesnt have to. 

You said it better than I did.

Whether the kid gets the vaccine or contracts the disease naturally, they end up immune. So what's better for the kid (and other vulnerable people)? For me, this one is a no brainer.

Fact. There is risk in every decision we make. Pretty much no decision is free of risk. The optimal choice, then, is one that is not necessarily free of risk, but has the least amount of risk.

Where I think a lot of anti-vax folks are veering off this logic is, they don't see the diseases, so they don't see the risk. They do, however, see autism (or whatever they think their child will be exposed to if they're vaccinated). So, to them, vaccinating is a greater risk because they think they can see that risk.

TrixieJess

ohmrs2014 said:

My dad never had the chicken pox when he was a child and obviously never received the vaccine.  My mom didn't know this and sure enough when my sister and I came down with the chicken pox, my dad got it as well.  I remember it was really bad for him.  He had them in his throat and ears.  His fever was so high that he was delirious.  I agree, chicken pox in adults is far worse than children.

Also, if you contract Chicken Pox at any time, you are at risk for developing Shingles as an adult. My mother has had Shingles and does not recommend them.

ohmrs2014

My sister had the shingles and she was not a happy camper.

novella1186

flutteringinfl said:

southernbelle0915 said:

stefuhknee said:

My son is 2 and we've pretty much been on board with the regular schedule for vaccinations that our pediatrician has recommended. He spreads them out enough so our toddler isn't getting prodded on every visit.

I don't really see the benefit in having our child develop a natural immunity to any disease that is already on the vaccination schedule. I had the chicken pox as a child and it was not fun. I've still got scars on my body from the pox marks. I would never want my child to endure that when he doesnt have to. 

You said it better than I did.

Whether the kid gets the vaccine or contracts the disease naturally, they end up immune. So what's better for the kid (and other vulnerable people)? For me, this one is a no brainer.

Fact. There is risk in every decision we make. Pretty much no decision is free of risk. The optimal choice, then, is one that is not necessarily free of risk, but has the least amount of risk.

Where I think a lot of anti-vax folks are veering off this logic is, they don't see the diseases, so they don't see the risk. They do, however, see autism (or whatever they think their child will be exposed to if they're vaccinated). So, to them, vaccinating is a greater risk because they think they can see that risk.

I just also read a really interesting article that delved into the cognition of parents who chose not to vaccinate. It found that there is a misguided belief in these parents that they actually have control over their children's exposure or susceptibility to the disease and they also have control over the outcome of contracting the disease. There's ambiguity or doubts over the validity/reliability vaccines (ugh), and a belief that if other children are vaccinated, then their children are at lower risk anyway. 

So they don't really weigh the greater, realistic risks or benefits. They just deny. It's kind of like "I don't need to wear a seatbelt, because I don't believe I will ever get in an accident, or if I do, I have control over the outcome of the accident so I will be fine." 

(Again, sorry I can't link) 

southernbelle0915

flutteringinfl said:

southernbelle0915 said:

stefuhknee said:

My son is 2 and we've pretty much been on board with the regular schedule for vaccinations that our pediatrician has recommended. He spreads them out enough so our toddler isn't getting prodded on every visit.

I don't really see the benefit in having our child develop a natural immunity to any disease that is already on the vaccination schedule. I had the chicken pox as a child and it was not fun. I've still got scars on my body from the pox marks. I would never want my child to endure that when he doesnt have to. 

You said it better than I did.

Whether the kid gets the vaccine or contracts the disease naturally, they end up immune. So what's better for the kid (and other vulnerable people)? For me, this one is a no brainer.

Fact. There is risk in every decision we make. Pretty much no decision is free of risk. The optimal choice, then, is one that is not necessarily free of risk, but has the least amount of risk.

Where I think a lot of anti-vax folks are veering off this logic is, they don't see the diseases, so they don't see the risk. They do, however, see autism (or whatever they think their child will be exposed to if they're vaccinated). So, to them, vaccinating is a greater risk because they think they can see that risk.

The bolded hits the nail on the head. Yes. 

Can (general) you imagine 200 years ago when there wasn't a small pox of MMR vaccine and these diseases were killing people left and right? Someone comes in and is like "hey, if you get this shot when you're a baby, you won't ever have this disease!" Do you really there there would be people who were like, "no no.... I'll take my chances." 

Maggie0829

If I can prevent my hypothetical child from contracting an illness that has a proven vaccine, then I am going to get them vaccinated.  I don't know why people wouldn't, because common sense.

I wish the chicken pox vac was around when I was young.  Chicken pox sucked.  And now I have the potential to get shingles and that shit doesn't look fun either.

I just don't understand why people would take the risk or put their children at risk of contracting a deadly disease.  Vaccines were created for a reason, so get them.

ohmrs2014

novella1186 said:

flutteringinfl said:

southernbelle0915 said:

stefuhknee said:

My son is 2 and we've pretty much been on board with the regular schedule for vaccinations that our pediatrician has recommended. He spreads them out enough so our toddler isn't getting prodded on every visit.

I don't really see the benefit in having our child develop a natural immunity to any disease that is already on the vaccination schedule. I had the chicken pox as a child and it was not fun. I've still got scars on my body from the pox marks. I would never want my child to endure that when he doesnt have to. 

You said it better than I did.

Whether the kid gets the vaccine or contracts the disease naturally, they end up immune. So what's better for the kid (and other vulnerable people)? For me, this one is a no brainer.

Fact. There is risk in every decision we make. Pretty much no decision is free of risk. The optimal choice, then, is one that is not necessarily free of risk, but has the least amount of risk.

Where I think a lot of anti-vax folks are veering off this logic is, they don't see the diseases, so they don't see the risk. They do, however, see autism (or whatever they think their child will be exposed to if they're vaccinated). So, to them, vaccinating is a greater risk because they think they can see that risk.

I just also read a really interesting article that delved into the cognition of parents who chose not to vaccinate.   

So they don't really weigh the greater, realistic risks or benefits. They just deny. It's kind of like "I don't need to wear a seatbelt, because I don't believe I will ever get in an accident, or if I do, I have control over the outcome of the accident so I will be fine." 

(Again, sorry I can't link) 

And this bothers me, you think parents would have opened their eyes after the measles outbreak that recently occurred.  You run the risk of exposing your child to something every time they leave the house and step out into the real world.  If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong), none of the children infected during the outbreak died.  And then what about the children who are too young to be vaccinated or who have compromised immune systems and can't be vaccinated.  They don't realize that they put other children at risk, not just their own.

lyndausvi

I wouldn't go far as to say there are too many vaccines.  

However, I think so people are way too focused on vaccines for kids.  They are not taking into account that many adults do not have the same vaccinations and/or never got the boosters.  

I've mentioned this in the thread on E.   I was vaccinated as a kid.  However, I still developed whooping cough as an adult.  I was surprised since I knew I had been vaccinated.  The doctor treating me was pretty meh. He said many people my age never had the booster (to be fair, they didn't know for a while that a booster was even needed).   

Honestly, I never had a doctor ask if I ever had a booster. Even moving around seeing new doctors every few years.  Not one has asked.   The only booster I ever received was for tetanus.  I've heard women looking to get pregnant are often asked, but I never fell into that category.  

I get why some people get all stabby over  being around unvaccinated kids.  However, they do not seemed to care about the adults who do not have their boosters.  Or have not gotten their flu and pneumonia shots.    

My mom has RA and her immune system is shot.  The unexposed unvaccinated kid poses little threat to her.  The adult who doesn't have their flu shot poses a greater threat.  Or the vaccinated guy coughing in the restaurant.   My mom has been hospitalized over the years over coughs.  Simple coughs that turned into more serious conditions.  

  I wouldn't exclude an unexposed unvaccinated kid to my wedding when there are shit ton of adults who pose her a bigger risk by not having the flu shot.

Maggie0829

lyndausvi said:

I wouldn't go far as to say there are too many vaccines.  

However, I think so people are way too focused on vaccines for kids.  They are not taking into account that many adults do not have the same vaccinations and/or never got the boosters.  

I've mentioned this in the thread on E.   I was vaccinated as a kid.  However, I still developed whooping cough as an adult.  I was surprised since I knew I had been vaccinated.  The doctor treating me was pretty meh. He said many people my age never had the booster (to be fair, they didn't know for a while that a booster was even needed).   

Honestly, I never had a doctor ask if I ever had a booster. Even moving around seeing new doctors every few years.  Not one has asked.   The only booster I ever received was for tetanus.  I've heard women looking to get pregnant are often asked, but I never fell into that category.  

I get why some people get all stabby over  being around unvaccinated kids.  However, they do not seemed to care about the adults who do not have their boosters.  Or have not gotten their flu and pneumonia shots.    

My mom has RA and her immune system is shot.  The unexposed unvaccinated kid poses little threat to her.  The adult who doesn't have their flu shot poses a greater threat.  Or the vaccinated guy coughing in the restaurant.   My mom has been hospitalized over the years over coughs.  Simple coughs that turned into more serious conditions.  

  I wouldn't exclude an unexposed unvaccinated kid to my wedding when there are shit ton of adults who pose her a bigger risk by not having the flu shot.

The point about adults and being vaccinated is a good one.  People always debate kids and whether they should be vaccinated.  No one ever really questions if an adult has been vaccinated or has had their boosters.  But I guess that is because of Jenny McCarthy and her whole "my child has autism because of vaccine" thing.

Basically everyone should be vaccinated.

flutteringinfl

Maggie0829 said:

lyndausvi said:

I wouldn't go far as to say there are too many vaccines.  

However, I think so people are way too focused on vaccines for kids.  They are not taking into account that many adults do not have the same vaccinations and/or never got the boosters.  

I've mentioned this in the thread on E.   I was vaccinated as a kid.  However, I still developed whooping cough as an adult.  I was surprised since I knew I had been vaccinated.  The doctor treating me was pretty meh. He said many people my age never had the booster (to be fair, they didn't know for a while that a booster was even needed).   

Honestly, I never had a doctor ask if I ever had a booster. Even moving around seeing new doctors every few years.  Not one has asked.   The only booster I ever received was for tetanus.  I've heard women looking to get pregnant are often asked, but I never fell into that category.  

I get why some people get all stabby over  being around unvaccinated kids.  However, they do not seemed to care about the adults who do not have their boosters.  Or have not gotten their flu and pneumonia shots.    

My mom has RA and her immune system is shot.  The unexposed unvaccinated kid poses little threat to her.  The adult who doesn't have their flu shot poses a greater threat.  Or the vaccinated guy coughing in the restaurant.   My mom has been hospitalized over the years over coughs.  Simple coughs that turned into more serious conditions.  

  I wouldn't exclude an unexposed unvaccinated kid to my wedding when there are shit ton of adults who pose her a bigger risk by not having the flu shot.

The point about adults and being vaccinated is a good one.  People always debate kids and whether they should be vaccinated.  No one ever really questions if an adult has been vaccinated or has had their boosters.  But I guess that is because of Jenny McCarthy and her whole "my child has autism because of vaccine" thing.

Basically everyone should be vaccinated.

I feel like Jenny McCarthy should be arrested. I know the law doesn't work that way, but I'd really like to see her just stop talking.

ohmrs2014

If I'm not mistaken, Jenny McCarthy has come out and said that she was wrong about the vaccines causing autism in her son.  Its too little too late IMO.  I really feel like shes the one who spearheaded this whole anti-vax movement.

thisismynickname2

I haven't done enough reading on this, but from what I understand, part of the issue with vaccines is the fact that the government is forcing it. Combine that with the risk of side effects to the vaccines (or any medication of any kind), it scares people. There are people who vehemently believe forcing the vaccines is the government overstepping their bounds. Freedom, y'all. 

Now then, I'm a card-carrying Libertarian, but even I think in matters of public health even the smallest government should have a say in this.

Also lately there's been a lot of kerfluffle over hormonal birth control. It can cause blood clots. This happened to one of my friends; she was admitted to the hospital. Statistically speaking, yeah, blood clots can happen. And some manufacturers are getting sued to high heaven because women "didn't know" it was a side effect. That's got to be only the most highly-publicized side effect! If you take HBC, you take the risk. 

Edit: words

flutteringinfl

ohmrs2014 said:

If I'm not mistaken, Jenny McCarthy has come out and said that she was wrong about the vaccines causing autism in her son.  Its too little too late IMO.  I really feel like shes the one who spearheaded this whole anti-vax movement.

I believe she's saying she no longer believes vaccines cause autism, but she's still demanding "safer" vaccines, and I think she's still encouraging parents to not vaccinate, or at least consider not vaccinating.