Rachel Dolezal

emmaaa

I'm sure many of you saw this headline last Friday about Rachel Dolezal. She is the chapter president of the Spokane NAACP and has identified herself as black to everyone around her. However, her parents came out last week and said that she is white, not black.  

How do y'all feel about this?

(http://www.essence.com/2015/06/14/rachel-dolezal-still-identifies-herself-black-plans-address-controversy)

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/12/us/washington-spokane-naacp-rachel-dolezal-identity/

mikenberger

If she wants to identify as black, that's cool with me. 

My problem comes in when she went to such great lengths to hide her ethnicity. Having her "dad" show up at functions, threatening her brothers if they told the truth. She obviously knew that she was doing something wrong and needed to cover it up. Why she felt it was wrong, I'm not sure. Maybe it's because of a lack of understanding on the whole of "How can you be born into a body and not feel like it's yours??" Who knows. I've read that she's done some really great work with the NAACP and I hope that can continue. Just with a more truthful Rachel Dolezal. 

emmaaa

mikenberger said:

If she wants to identify as black, that's cool with me. 

My problem comes in when she went to such great lengths to hide her ethnicity. Having her "dad" show up at functions, threatening her brothers if they told the truth. She obviously knew that she was doing something wrong and needed to cover it up. Why she felt it was wrong, I'm not sure. Maybe it's because of a lack of understanding on the whole of "How can you be born into a body and not feel like it's yours??" Who knows. I've read that she's done some really great work with the NAACP and I hope that can continue. Just with a more truthful Rachel Dolezal. 

@mikenberger I thought the same thing as the bolded. I originally had something similar into my OP but it wasn't worded well and sounded weird so I just skipped it. I don't understand the concept of going to that extent to cover it up. 

I read that she physically threatened her brother if he told the truth. She  may have done some great work thorugh the university she works at and the NAACP but the fact that she was able to scare her brother so much into keeping that secret for years, tells me she isn't the best person either. And sometimes those bad actions out weigh the good.

KatWAG

I have read that she is a really good fundraiser. So if she is good at her job, isn't that all that should matter?

emmaaa

KatWAG said:

I have read that she is a really good fundraiser. So if she is good at her job, isn't that all that should matter?

Yes and no. To me, being good at your job and being a phenomenal fundraiser (which is great for the NAACP and other causes she worked for), doesn't not negate poor behavior and actions. She not only lied about her ethnicity, she went to great lengths (like threatening her brother if he didn't keep her secret) to cover it up. 

southernbelle0915

She's a white person wearing blackface, correct? 

If she wants to identify herself with the mission of the NAACP and the bigger movement for racial equality, cool. Good on her. It sounds like she does her job well and is a strong advocate. 

But I don't think it's cool to lie about being black when you grew up with white privilege. And then further, I don't think it's cool that she lied about her father and threatened people who could expose her. I wonder if she honestly believed she could live out her days lying to everyone.

I'll be very interested to read/hear a statement from her and from the Spokane NAACP. 

[Deleted User]

I think she sounds like she is completely BSC. Why does she need to identify as black? She straight up ISN'T black. She can still do great things for the NAACP without pretending to be a different race. I'm not going to fully get into why her actions are so horrendous, because I would have to write a novel.

KatWAG

She just resigned.

wandajune6

It's the act of lying that bothers me more than the lie itself here. She purposefully misrepresented herself and forced others to participate in the lie. True, race shouldn't matter. Perhaps it wouldn't have mattered. But she clearly believed it would-- if she didn't think it was important, she wouldn't have made other people lie for her.

What also makes this difficult is that she fundamentally lied about who she was. I read about her claiming to grew up in a teepee and hunt, etc. Total BS. Again, this shouldn't matter but it's core to who she is. The act of lying about all of this stuff proves her she can't be trusted. Also, that's she's BSC.

I also agree with @southernbelle0915- lying about being black while growing up with white privilege is wrong.

And an update: I read that she just resigned from the NAACP. I'm assuming she still has her teaching role?

luckya23

I think it's a strange thing to do, but she must have felt some type of calling I guess, because that seems like a LOT of hassle to keep up the charade all this time.

I will say that many of my facebook friends seem offended by her actions, like she has taken things that rightfully belong to a true person of color. 

I don't think she got where she is without merit though.  She obviously didn't have family connections, which is more than can be said for a lot of people in positions of power!

I keep wondering how she got her hair to look like that though.  Is it a wig?  I've had many perms and I can't imagine my hair doing that!

I haven't been following the story too much though - has anyone said why her parents felt the need to expose her?

redoryx

luckya23 said:

I think it's a strange thing to do, but she must have felt some type of calling I guess, because that seems like a LOT of hassle to keep up the charade all this time.

I will say that many of my facebook friends seem offended by her actions, like she has taken things that rightfully belong to a true person of color. 

I don't think she got where she is without merit though.  She obviously didn't have family connections, which is more than can be said for a lot of people in positions of power!

I keep wondering how she got her hair to look like that though.  Is it a wig?  I've had many perms and I can't imagine my hair doing that!

I haven't been following the story too much though - has anyone said why her parents felt the need to expose her?

But that's just it -- she could have still done all of that without resorting to what is basically black face.

The problem is that as a white woman she comes with inherent privilege that she can reclaim if she ever decided to stop identifying as POC. 

southernbelle0915

luckya23 said:

has anyone said why her parents felt the need to expose her?

I don't know. I think it was her brother who spoke out first, though. Either way, it's a good question.

If I knew she was actually white wearing blackface and lying to people, I'd be tempted to expose her too. Because I think it's wrong to wear blackface when you grew up with white privilege. Like really wrong. It'd be tough to make that call since she's been such a strong advocate, but I still think it's wrong enough that I'd feel guilty NOT speaking out. 

banana468

KatWAG said:

I have read that she is a really good fundraiser. So if she is good at her job, isn't that all that should matter?

OK - while not on the same level, you could make the same argument for Josh Duggar in his position at the Family Research Council.   He completely lied about his past and what he did but if he was doing a good job did it matter?  (Note: I'm not saying I agree with his job.   I'm saying that one could argue that he was effective in his position.)

The answer is YES.   If you're taking a public role then you should not misrepresent yourself.   In this case she is trying to cover up who she is.     I think plenty would respect her far more if she didn't lie about it. 

Heffalump

luckya23 said:

I haven't been following the story too much though - has anyone said why her parents felt the need to expose her?

It's my understanding that it was after she claimed to have received hate mail (in her P.O. box), but then the investigation showed that it wasn't postmarked.  Which meant either a postal employee put it in there, or she wasn't telling the truth.  I believe that was the point at which her parents revealed that she wasn't actually black.  Maybe once her dishonesty reached the level of a police investigation, her parents decided enough was enough, before she got herself in deeper and got in actual trouble?  (Interfering with an investigation, filing a false police report, etc.)

luckya23

Heffalump said:

luckya23 said:

I haven't been following the story too much though - has anyone said why her parents felt the need to expose her?

It's my understanding that it was after she claimed to have received hate mail (in her P.O. box), but then the investigation showed that it wasn't postmarked.  Which meant either a postal employee put it in there, or she wasn't telling the truth.  I believe that was the point at which her parents revealed that she wasn't actually black.  Maybe once her dishonesty reached the level of a police investigation, her parents decided enough was enough, before she got herself in deeper and got in actual trouble?  (Interfering with an investigation, filing a false police report, etc.)

Ah, that makes sense.  Her parents may have been questioned in the course of the initial investigation of the mail thing.  And since filing a false report is a crime, they may have felt enough was enough with her lies.

Casadena

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

STARMOON44

Casadena said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are.

Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends.

Quite different to me really.

Casadena

STARMOON44 said:

Casadena said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are.

Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends.

Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

STARMOON44

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

Casadena said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are.

Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends.

Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex.

If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

southernbelle0915

Casadena said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Ok, without derailing this thread, "sex" and "gender" are different things. Sex = chromosomal makeup. Gender = social construct of men and women. 

Race doesn't really have these two separate things. If a white person relates to black people and the movement for racial equality, that doesn't make it ok to dress up in blackface (which omg, please google how offensive this is) and parade around lying to people that they are, in fact black when they are not.

This is apples and oranges here. Not even in the same universe as the same thing. 

STARMOON44

Like, I think the question always needs to be "wait, am I dressing up in blackface?"

and the answer has to be "oh, nope. Nope nope nope this is a bad idea."

There's never a good reason for blackface.

Casadena

STARMOON44 said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are. Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends. Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex. If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

anjemon

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are. Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends. Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex. If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

While her identifying as black may be similar, the lying and threatening people is not. I think if she had just identified as black and wanted to be the head of the NAACP, many people would have supported her and her ideals.

But she didn't. She lied about a lot of things: who her parents were, how she grew up, a lot of her history. She threatened her own family not to tell the truth about her. And she was discovered because she was committing mail fraud. That's why we think she's messed up and BSC. Because her actions are not the actions of someone who is just truthfully trying to support cause she identifies with but does not represent.

Casadena

anjemon said:

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

Casadena said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are.

Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends.

Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex.

If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

While her identifying as black may be similar, the lying and threatening people is not. I think if she had just identified as black and wanted to be the head of the NAACP, many people would have supported her and her ideals.

But she didn't. She lied about a lot of things: who her parents were, how she grew up, a lot of her history. She threatened her own family not to tell the truth about her. And she was discovered because she was committing mail fraud. That's why we think she's messed up and BSC. Because her actions are not the actions of someone who is just truthfully trying to support cause she identifies with but does not represent.

Again that's why I mentioned that I absolutely disagree with specifically HOW she went about her day to day business (obviously black face, fraud, threats are not ok). However, from everything I've read about this (here and lots of article comments) people seem to most outraged by the fact that she's a white woman, identifying as a black woman and they are NOT supporting her or her ideals in that regard as you suggest they would in that situation. That's the the part I take issue with in general. The lack of support for her right to identify as she chooses.

redoryx

Here's the problem with trying to compare trans people and Rachel Dolezal. 

In the instance of Caitlyn Jenner -- who people are using in this argument in the wider world -- biology fucked up. Caitlyn was born with the wrong genitalia but she has always been a woman. Those unfamiliar with GLBTQI issues mistakenly believe that "Caitlyn" is some kind of costume that Bruce is wearing, but that's not the case: "Bruce" was the costume that Caitlyn was wearing. 

Rachel is white. Her parents are white. Biology did not fuck up in this instance. It's fine if she identifies as black and feels a pull towards the black community but she is not and has never been and could never be black. Her pretending to be black is and always will be a costume. 

southernbelle0915

Casadena said:

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are. Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends. Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex. If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

While her identifying as black may be similar, the lying and threatening people is not. I think if she had just identified as black and wanted to be the head of the NAACP, many people would have supported her and her ideals.

But she didn't. She lied about a lot of things: who her parents were, how she grew up, a lot of her history. She threatened her own family not to tell the truth about her. And she was discovered because she was committing mail fraud. That's why we think she's messed up and BSC. Because her actions are not the actions of someone who is just truthfully trying to support cause she identifies with but does not represent.

Again that's why I mentioned that I absolutely disagree with specifically HOW she went about her day to day business (obviously black face, fraud, threats are not ok). However, from everything I've read about this (here and lots of article comments) people seem to most outraged by the fact that she's a white woman, identifying as a black woman and they are NOT supporting her or her ideals in that regard as you suggest they would in that situation. That's the the part I take issue with in general. The lack of support for her right to identify as she chooses.

But we're talking about RACE. Let me try to explain in analogy since you seem determined to equate this to gender identity.

A local LGBT activist group has a president who is a male who transitioned to woman. Her story is that she grew up a boy and never felt comfortable in her own skin. She was bullied and had a very rough childhood as a result of this identity. She transitioned to female later in life and has worked tirelessly to raise awareness for the cause and the rights of transgendered people. As a transgendered woman, she has endured discrimination, hardship, and threats. However, she's good at her job and has done great things for the transgendered community. 

Lo and behold, the truth leaks out. She was not born male. She is XX and has never been anything but a woman. She never transitioned or underwent any surgeries She was never bullied and never grew up stigmatized. Can you imagine how hurt and pissed a lot of people would be that this person pretended to understand their struggle first hand and leading their cause under false pretenses? 

Also, I don't think you've googled "blackface" yet. When you do, you will see how incredibly insulting it is and the unfortunate history behind it. The irony of an NAACP president wearing blackface is just....it's crazy. Like, CRAZY. Crazy bad. Crazy insulting. Crazy wrong. Just crazy.

anjemon

Casadena said:

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are. Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends. Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex. If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

While her identifying as black may be similar, the lying and threatening people is not. I think if she had just identified as black and wanted to be the head of the NAACP, many people would have supported her and her ideals.

But she didn't. She lied about a lot of things: who her parents were, how she grew up, a lot of her history. She threatened her own family not to tell the truth about her. And she was discovered because she was committing mail fraud. That's why we think she's messed up and BSC. Because her actions are not the actions of someone who is just truthfully trying to support cause she identifies with but does not represent.

Again that's why I mentioned that I absolutely disagree with specifically HOW she went about her day to day business (obviously black face, fraud, threats are not ok). However, from everything I've read about this (here and lots of article comments) people seem to most outraged by the fact that she's a white woman, identifying as a black woman and they are NOT supporting her or her ideals in that regard as you suggest they would in that situation. That's the the part I take issue with in general. The lack of support for her right to identify as she chooses.

Maybe. But I don't think she was so much choosing to identify as black. She was lying about being black and for most people that negates all the talk about identifying. She did so many crazy things that I couldn't take any talk about her ideals and beliefs seriously.

Maybe someone here can help educate me. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure how a person goes about identifying as a race they were not genetically connected.  How does one do that in a healthy way?

Casadena

redoryx said:

Here's the problem with trying to compare trans people and Rachel Dolezal. 

In the instance of Caitlyn Jenner -- who people are using in this argument in the wider world -- biology fucked up. Caitlyn was born with the wrong genitalia but she has always been a woman. Those unfamiliar with GLBTQI issues mistakenly believe that "Caitlyn" is some kind of costume that Bruce is wearing, but that's not the case: "Bruce" was the costume that Caitlyn was wearing. 

Rachel is white. Her parents are white. Biology did not fuck up in this instance. It's fine if she identifies as black and feels a pull towards the black community but she is not and has never been and could never be black. Her pretending to be black is and always will be a costume. 

See this makes no sense to me. How can biology fuck up sex, but not race? No one is born with the "wrong" genitalia. They are born with what they are born with and in this day and age they have to disagree and effectively change what's on the outside to match what's on they feel on the inside should they wish to do so. I support their right to do that. To me this is no different.

redoryx

Casadena said:

Here's the problem with trying to compare trans people and Rachel Dolezal. 

In the instance of Caitlyn Jenner -- who people are using in this argument in the wider world -- biology fucked up. Caitlyn was born with the wrong genitalia but she has always been a woman. Those unfamiliar with GLBTQI issues mistakenly believe that "Caitlyn" is some kind of costume that Bruce is wearing, but that's not the case: "Bruce" was the costume that Caitlyn was wearing. 

Rachel is white. Her parents are white. Biology did not fuck up in this instance. It's fine if she identifies as black and feels a pull towards the black community but she is not and has never been and could never be black. Her pretending to be black is and always will be a costume. 

See this makes no sense to me. How can biology fuck up sex, but not race? No one is born with the "wrong" genitalia. They are born with what they are born with and in this day and age they have to disagree and effectively change what's on the outside to match what's on they feel on the inside should they wish to do so. I support their right to do that. To me this is no different.

Because race is genetics. Two white parents cannot produce a black child.

And I promise you that people can be born with the wrong genitalia, that's what being a  trans man or a trans woman is all about. It's not what they "feel" on the inside, it's what they are on the inside.

southernbelle0915

anjemon said:

Casadena said:

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are. Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends. Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex. If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

While her identifying as black may be similar, the lying and threatening people is not. I think if she had just identified as black and wanted to be the head of the NAACP, many people would have supported her and her ideals.

But she didn't. She lied about a lot of things: who her parents were, how she grew up, a lot of her history. She threatened her own family not to tell the truth about her. And she was discovered because she was committing mail fraud. That's why we think she's messed up and BSC. Because her actions are not the actions of someone who is just truthfully trying to support cause she identifies with but does not represent.

Again that's why I mentioned that I absolutely disagree with specifically HOW she went about her day to day business (obviously black face, fraud, threats are not ok). However, from everything I've read about this (here and lots of article comments) people seem to most outraged by the fact that she's a white woman, identifying as a black woman and they are NOT supporting her or her ideals in that regard as you suggest they would in that situation. That's the the part I take issue with in general. The lack of support for her right to identify as she chooses.

Maybe. But I don't think she was so much choosing to identify as black. She was lying about being black and for most people that negates all the talk about identifying. She did so many crazy things that I couldn't take any talk about her ideals and beliefs seriously.

Maybe someone here can help educate me. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure how a person goes about identifying as a race they were not genetically connected.  How does one do that in a healthy way?

To the first bolded - exactly. She wasn't like "hey NAACP and black community, I'm obviously white, but I believe in your mission and the movement. I want to support it and work hard toward racial equality." She was like, "I'm going to don blackface." 

To the second bolded - If a white person feels they relate more to the black community, then they usually just immerse themselves in black culture. Whatever that means to them - maybe they attend a predominantly black church, maintain a social network of mostly black friends, listen to music by black artists, join up with local movements for racial equality, whatever. But they never, EVER should wear blackface. Like never ever. Anyone who understands the racial struggle for black people knows how insulting that is. 

anjemon

southernbelle0915 said:

anjemon said:

Casadena said:

Casadena said:

STARMOON44 said:

To me this is the same as identifying as one sex when you are not. I guess I don't understand why people are mad about her identifying as black when she is not, but it's courageous when someone claims to be a woman, when he is not. I absolutely don't care how people want to identify, that's their issue and i will support their right to choose. But I don't understand the selective outrage.

Transgender people are not claiming to be something they are not- they are asserting something they actually are. Dressing up in blackface is not remotely similar. Nothing about her actions say that she genuinely believes that she is black. Rather, she has gone to great lengths to appropriate another culture for her own ends. Quite different to me really.

I understand where you're coming from and why many people might think this is completely different and that's ok. But Transgender people are still identifying as something they biologically are not (and I support their right to do so). I don't agree with the way this woman went about her life, but she's done great work in support of the naacp and I don't think it's fair say "for her own ends". In my mind if she want to associate as/identify as black and work in support of that group of people it's not that different than the example I already gave.

Your gender isn't biological though. That's sex. If you, as a white woman, want to work to support the NAACP, absolutely. You can do that as a white person.

I'm aware that they are different, that's why I used sex and not gender in my original post. My apologies for continuing your use of the word Transgender in the wrong context. I still support my original argument in that I view thsee situations as very similar.

While her identifying as black may be similar, the lying and threatening people is not. I think if she had just identified as black and wanted to be the head of the NAACP, many people would have supported her and her ideals.

But she didn't. She lied about a lot of things: who her parents were, how she grew up, a lot of her history. She threatened her own family not to tell the truth about her. And she was discovered because she was committing mail fraud. That's why we think she's messed up and BSC. Because her actions are not the actions of someone who is just truthfully trying to support cause she identifies with but does not represent.

Again that's why I mentioned that I absolutely disagree with specifically HOW she went about her day to day business (obviously black face, fraud, threats are not ok). However, from everything I've read about this (here and lots of article comments) people seem to most outraged by the fact that she's a white woman, identifying as a black woman and they are NOT supporting her or her ideals in that regard as you suggest they would in that situation. That's the the part I take issue with in general. The lack of support for her right to identify as she chooses.

Maybe. But I don't think she was so much choosing to identify as black. She was lying about being black and for most people that negates all the talk about identifying. She did so many crazy things that I couldn't take any talk about her ideals and beliefs seriously.

Maybe someone here can help educate me. Honestly, I'm not 100% sure how a person goes about identifying as a race they were not genetically connected.  How does one do that in a healthy way?

To the first bolded - exactly. She wasn't like "hey NAACP and black community, I'm obviously white, but I believe in your mission and the movement. I want to support it and work hard toward racial equality." She was like, "I'm going to don blackface." 

To the second bolded - If a white person feels they relate more to the black community, then they usually just immerse themselves in black culture. Whatever that means to them - maybe they attend a predominantly black church, maintain a social network of mostly black friends, listen to music by black artists, join up with local movements for racial equality, whatever. But they never, EVER should wear blackface. Like never ever. Anyone who understands the racial struggle for black people knows how insulting that is. 

That is what I was assuming, but I didn't want to get things wrong if there was some other way to go about identifying with a race that I didn't know about. 

To the whole discussion - I think I have a hard time with people "identifying" as a different race. I mean, if they want to they can, but I think it's really weird. Gender is much more binary in our society (which I know is problematic in itself, but that's the way society is). But there isn't and shouldn't be a binary for race. Black people can be loud or quiet or like rap or classical or country. They are different people with different personalities. Why can't you just be a white person with black friends who enjoys hip hop music and your particular preacher or the way the black congregation worships together. And feel empathy for the struggles your friends have because of the way society reacts towards them and work for general equality. Without having to consider yourself a black person. Anyways, this was a thing I was pondering today while eating lunch.