Confederate Flag Drama

flbride2015

So SC took down the flag, and I'm sitting here scratching my head because I just don't get why there was so much drama over it. I mean, taking it down seemed like a pretty obvious decision to me; but whatever. My real confusion comes from the arguments the Confederate flag supporters were making. I almost understand the "heritage" argument because I'm assuming those people just aren't educated on the history of the Civil War and that flag (which is actually General Lee's flag); but the ones that argue the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery leave me dumbfounded. I mean, each state wrote a declaration explaining their reasons for leaving the Union. It's all right there in black and white. How is it even a thing people disagree over?

twoleighs

I think a lot of the backlash of taking it down has to do with when it was handled.  The Government made it look like the Confederate Flag was to blame for the shootings in SC (similar to the guns kill people argument - total BS, but a story for another time).  

I agree that it was part of our history, not necessarily part of our future and there certainly didn't need to be as much drama involved.  

[Deleted User]

I agree that the timing may have seemed like the confederate flag and the shooting were connected as cause-and-effect, which upset people. While the confederate flag is certainly a part of southern heritage and history, I think it belongs in a museum and not on the property of any state government buildings.

I think some people took things out of context and started perceiving it as an attack on their right to fly the flag. No one took away their right to fly the flag on their own private property. I personally would not; but if someone was compelled to do so, then they still have that right.

ETF grammar

ThxSugar

My FI is from Charleston and has a completely different understanding of the flag than I do, raised in the Midwest. To him, it is a symbol of the rebellious spirit of the South, rising against the oppressive Northern Government, his words. I am not saying he is wrong but there is an Enormous difference between what they teach kids in the South and what I was taught. He doesn't understand that the majority of people think something entirely different when they, myself included, see the Confederate flag.

lyndausvi

I'm from the mid-Atlantic and it never sat right with me that some of the states in the south flew the Confederate flag at the state capitals and such.  I even looked at going to Ole Miss.   IDK, it didn't sit right with me.

That said, I think banning the Dukes of Hazzard and GWTW takes it too far.  DOH has be removed, General Lee's taken off the market.   There have been reports that people want GWTW pulled from stores.   I'm not really liking this sort of censorship if you will.  No the gov't isn't censoring, but the it is kind of a form of censorship to me at least.

 

KatWAG

So my question is when are people going to take issue with the Mississippi flag?

lyndausvi

KatWAG said:

So my question is when are people going to take issue with the Mississippi flag?

Only a matter of time.   Didn't they already change the Ole Miss mascot?  Are going to?

[Deleted User]

I mean, I've heard issues with the Mississippi flag brought up before, just never on this grand of a scale. PP is right...only a matter of time.

bethsmiles

KatWAG said:

So my question is when are people going to take issue with the Mississippi flag?

I had to look up what Mississippi's flag looks like but WTF Mississippi - time for a new fucking flag.

As for the confederate flag - I don't care what people in the south want to say it stands for it's absolutely tied to racism and there's no way around that. And while the confederate flag certainty wasn't the cause of the SC shootings racists have used it as a symbol for their racist beliefs since day one, the ideas it stands for absolutely had to do with the shootings but it should have been taken down long, long before now anyway.

justsie

Considering how much Texas history books are going to change in the next few years I can see why some people are so naive to think that the confederate flag only stands for states rights. *biggest eyeroll ever*

STARMOON44

There was drama because lots of people are fucking racist. Not much to understand- hateful people will make up whatever lies they can to preserve their power to oppress.

If you think the confederate flag is a symbol of the rebellious spirit of the south rising up against the oppressive north, you're wrong, ignorant, and fucking racist.

CMGragain

The Confederate flag never stood for racism, just as the Nazi swastika never stood for killing Jews, however, both things happened under those flags, and times have changed - thank God!
The Confederate flag offends many people today.  I do not see the need to fly it publicly, or to use it in government symbols.  It is a treasured relic of the past for many, and it belongs in museums and books.  It should not be forbidden or erased.  We need to remember our past, so that we will not repeat it, ever again.

hellohkb

STARMOON44 said:

There was drama because lots of people are fucking racist. Not much to understand- hateful people will make up whatever lies they can to preserve their power to oppress.

If you think the confederate flag is a symbol of the rebellious spirit of the south rising up against the oppressive north, you're wrong, ignorant, and fucking racist.

QFT

STARMOON44

CMGragain said:

The Confederate flag never stood for racism, just as the Nazi swastika never stood for killing Jews, however, both things happened under those flags, and times have changed - thank God!
The Confederate flag offends many people today.  I do not see the need to fly it publicly, or to use it in government symbols.  It is a treasured relic of the past for many, and it belongs in museums and books.  It should not be forbidden or erased.  We need to remember our past, so that we will not repeat it, ever again.

Oh hell no. The confederate battle flag stood for racism from the moment it was created as a symbol of the fight to preserve slavery- the ultimate expression of racial hatred. The people who consider it a "treasured relic" are racists. Sure, keep it around in museums, but it is now and has always been racist.

labro

KatWAG said:

So my question is when are people going to take issue with the Mississippi flag?

Hopefully soon. Georgia changed its flag in 2001 after TONS of drama and "my heritage this" and "Symbol of rebellion that". I think it's awful that it took a tragedy like what happened in Charleston to FINALLY prompt the state of SC to remove the Confederate flag from government buildings. My uncle just shared the shit quoted below and I'm so fucking angry and disappointed in him.

"Yippee, the Confederate battle flag has now been removed from the grounds of the South Carolina State Capitol. And, just like that, it solves the problem of black-on-black crime and killings. Now we’ll see the out-of-wedlock birthrate in the black community drop from 75%. There will be better educational opportunities and schools in South Carolina’s black communities and all across America. The black unemployment rate will drop —especially the almost 40% black teenage unemployment rate. We’ll now see an economic entrepreneurial boon in the inner cities because the Confederate battle flag’s been lowered. And there’ll be no more gangs of blacks beating on whites — as we saw in Ohio recently. Yep, the liberal progressive media shouted "squirrel" and an entire nation went a running. All the yelling and shouting by the crowds was evidence of those who lack grace, respect and dignity. Former South Carolina Gamecocks football coach Lou Holtz remarked that when you get to the end zone, you should act like you’ve been there before. So what does the lowering of the Confederate battle flag have to do with the killing of little seven-year-old Amari Brown in Chicago — anyone know when his funeral is?"

CMGragain

STARMOON44, I am curious.  Why are you so angry and so absolute in your posts about this?  Have you ever lived in the south?
I do agree with you that the flag needed to be taken down.  I also agree that it should not be displayed publicly, and especially not on government ground.  What I do not understand is your anger and your insistence that there is no room for any other opinions except yours.
I have friends who are members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, an organization that encourages historic preservation, education, and honoring of their ancestors who participated in the Civil War on the Confederate side.  (I do not belong to this organization, myself.)  My friends are not racist.  They are interested in preserving the past.    They are very angry that the flag that was a symbol of the Confederacy has been used by  racist organizations as their symbol.  Most of them agree that the flag needed to be taken down due to current events.
I just wondered why you are so angry about this?  The flag had nothing to do with the tragedy of the church killings.

HeatherKat

CMGragain said:

STARMOON44, I am curious.  Why are you so angry and so absolute in your posts about this?  Have you ever lived in the south?
I do agree with you that the flag needed to be taken down.  I also agree that it should not be displayed publicly, and especially not on government ground.  What I do not understand is your anger and your insistence that there is no room for any other opinions except yours.
I have friends who are members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, an organization that encourages historic preservation, education, and honoring of their ancestors who participated in the Civil War on the Confederate side.  (I do not belong to this organization, myself.)  My friends are not racist.  They are interested in preserving the past.    They are very angry that the flag that was a symbol of the Confederacy has been used by  racist organizations as their symbol.  Most of them agree that the flag needed to be taken down due to current events.
I just wondered why you are so angry about this?  The flag had nothing to do with the tragedy of the church killings.

But... the Civil War was about slavery. That's why there was a war. It's not like the flag is a benign symbol that got taken over by racists--- it's always, from the beginning, been a racist symbol.

labro

CMGragain said:

STARMOON44, I am curious.  Why are you so angry and so absolute in your posts about this?  Have you ever lived in the south?

Who cares if she lives in the south or not? I do, and I 100% agree with every single word she said.
I do agree with you that the flag needed to be taken down.  I also agree that it should not be displayed publicly, and especially not on government ground.  What I do not understand is your anger and your insistence that there is no room for any other opinions except yours.
I have friends who are members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, an organization that encourages historic preservation, education, and honoring of their ancestors who participated in the Civil War on the Confederate side.  (I do not belong to this organization, myself.)  My friends are not racist.  They are interested in preserving the past.    They are very angry that the flag that was a symbol of the Confederacy has been used by  racist organizations as their symbol.  Most of them agree that the flag needed to be taken down due to current events.

Listen, the flag and the Civil War were not JUST symbols of states rights/rebellion against the industrialized north. There were many factors that led to the war, but one of the absolute biggest was the argument over whether or not new states were allowed to be slave-holding states or not. The Civil War absolutely was fought over the rights of Southern states/Southern property owners (who were the government leaders in these states) to subjugate an entire race of people for the sole purpose of maintaining their way of life.
I just wondered why you are so angry about this?  The flag had nothing to do with the tragedy of the church killings.

^^^ To the above, honestly, I believe the Confederate flag and Southerner's dreaming of "the glorious Old South" absolutely contributed to the shooter's actions.

CMGragain

Who told you this?  How do you know?  Racism was throughout society, both north and south, during the Civil War.  Some northerners were more racist than most southerners.  Yes, many fought for freedom for slaves, but not everyone did.  Most Confederate soldiers did not own any slaves.  Most officers did.
Yes, the flag needed to come down! I do think you are making some assumptions about history that might not be accurate.

STARMOON44

CMGragain said:

STARMOON44, I am curious.  Why are you so angry and so absolute in your posts about this?  Have you ever lived in the south?
I do agree with you that the flag needed to be taken down.  I also agree that it should not be displayed publicly, and especially not on government ground.  What I do not understand is your anger and your insistence that there is no room for any other opinions except yours.
I have friends who are members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, an organization that encourages historic preservation, education, and honoring of their ancestors who participated in the Civil War on the Confederate side.  (I do not belong to this organization, myself.)  My friends are not racist.  They are interested in preserving the past.    They are very angry that the flag that was a symbol of the Confederacy has been used by  racist organizations as their symbol.  Most of them agree that the flag needed to be taken down due to current events.
I just wondered why you are so angry about this?  The flag had nothing to do with the tragedy of the church killings.

The Confederacy was FUCKING RACIST AS ALL HELL. Women who get together to celebrate it? ALL RACIST. We shouldn't be honoring people who fought to preserve slavery, because that was a horrible thing to do.

If you don't think the confederate flag is racist, you are wrong. And racist. If you think the symbol of generations of white on black terrorism had nothing to do with the tragedy of the church shootings, you are wrong. And racist.

And I am angry because it is outrageous. The confederate flag should never have flown. It didn't need to be taken down now because of current events, it needed to be burned the day it was created. I'm angry because the core of my being, my best soul, my most Christian impulses, counsel me to rage angrily, loudly, profanely to bear witness that the terrorism of the confederacy is not now and has never been acceptable.

HeatherKat

CMGragain said:

Who told you this?  How do you know?  Racism was throughout society, both north and south, during the Civil War.  Some northerners were more racist than most southerners.  Yes, many fought for freedom for slaves, but not everyone did.  Most Confederate soldiers did not own any slaves.  Most officers did.
Yes, the flag needed to come down! I do think you are making some assumptions about history that might not be accurate.

The Declarations of Causes of Succeeding States <--clicky

Go ahead. Count the number of references to slavery and then tell me that that isn't what the war was about.

CMGragain

While I agree with you in principle, I disagree with your attitude.  There was a fascinating PBS series on abolitionism this week, and it will end next week.  Did you see it?  I think you would have been marching with John Brown's crowd in Harper's Ferry, trying to overthrow the government.
The Civil War was a very complicated time.  Things were not as clearly defined as you think.  It was probably the worst time for our country, and it almost ended us as a united and free people.  Making simple judgements about this time from a perspective of 150 years later is inaccurate and wrong, IMHO.  All southerners were not evil racists.  All northerners were not angels wanting to save the slaves.

PS. If you want to label ME as racist, I think my son-in-law and grandson might just disagree with you.

STARMOON44

HahahahahahHa. I know my history, thanks though. Of course there were racist northerners? And? Does that make the Confederacy less racist somehow? There sadly isn't a finite pool of hatred.

Did every Confederate soldier own a slave? Of course not! That doesn't change what the war was about.

I won't apologize for my attitude or change it. The Confederate flag has been a symbol of terror for generations. If it doesn't make you quiver with rage perhaps you are the one who needs to do some learning. Maybe start by reading Ta-Nehisi Coates article on The Case for Reparations. Or learn about the prevalence of lynchings. Or race riots in Oklahoma. Or vagrancy laws creating de facto slavary in the Deep South well into the 20th century. Or redlining. Or read The Warmth of Other Suns.

Or just ask your Daughters of the Confederacy friends. I'm sure they're a reliable source if you'd rather be comfortable than honest.

labro

CMGragain said:

While I agree with you in principle, I disagree with you attitude.  There was a fascinating PBS series on abolitionism this week, and it will end next week.  Did you see it?  I think you would have been marching with John Brown's crowd in Harper's Ferry, trying to overthrow the government.
The Civil War was a very complicated time.  Things were not as clearly defined as you think.  It was probably the worst time for our country, and it almost ended us as a united and free people.  Making simple judgements about this time from a perspective of 150 years later is inaccurate and wrong, IMHO.  All southerners were not evil racists.  All northerners were not angels wanting to save the slaves.

PS. If you want to label ME as racist, I think my son-in-law and grandson might just disagree with you.

Omg! Nobody here is saying that the Northerners were angels and the Southerners were all evil! Yes, the Civil War was complicated and its roots are buried in the creation of our country - remember the whole 3/5ths Compromise? Or the many many decisions made after over which states would allow slavery vs not allow it? Or how about the Dred Scott decision? These are all MAJOR contributors to the Civil War and slavery ABSOLUTELY was a primary reason behind why the war even happened. Yes, there were other reasons, but slavery was a huge huge huge HUGE part of it. And the actions taken by Southern states - think Jim Crow laws, the activity of the KKK in the 1950s, have all further contributed to the further subjugation of African Americans in the South and a very deep and abiding racism by the majority white people. Awareness of what brought us here and that racism is alive and well, that the Civil War did not once and for all "fix" things, and the reminders of why we fought, are all very important in the on-going fight today to end things like white privilege and racism.

HeatherKat

CMGragain said:

While I agree with you in principle, I disagree with your attitude.  There was a fascinating PBS series on abolitionism this week, and it will end next week.  Did you see it?  I think you would have been marching with John Brown's crowd in Harper's Ferry, trying to overthrow the government.
The Civil War was a very complicated time.  Things were not as clearly defined as you think.  It was probably the worst time for our country, and it almost ended us as a united and free people.  Making simple judgements about this time from a perspective of 150 years later is inaccurate and wrong, IMHO.  All southerners were not evil racists.  All northerners were not angels wanting to save the slaves.

PS. If you want to label ME as racist, I think my son-in-law and grandson might just disagree with you.

I mean, there was a large percentage of people who were the exact opposite of "free", but go ahead and celebrate the people who fought to keep them that way.

STARMOON44

I just honestly cannot fathom, as a Christian, going out of your way to argue that maybe the confederate flag isn't that big of a deal and maybe the confederacy wasn't completely racist and maybe the daughters of the confederacy aren't racist at all. Like, you're fighting on the side of hate here? Because why?

You'd rather try and get me to stop being angry than get your friends to stop being racist. And that's a major problem.

STARMOON44

Having an Asian son-in-law isn't a get-out-of-being-racist-free card. I don't know if you're racist, or just making stupid arguments because you're bored. But if you think the Daughters of the Confederacy aren't racist? You are.

CMGragain

STARMOON44 said:

HahahahahahHa. I know my history, thanks though. Of course there were racist northerners? And? Does that make the Confederacy less racist somehow? There sadly isn't a finite pool of hatred. Did every Confederate soldier own a slave? Of course not! That doesn't change what the war was about. I won't apologize for my attitude or change it. The Confederate flag has been a symbol of terror for generations. If it doesn't make you quiver with rage perhaps you are the one who needs to do some learning. Maybe start by reading Ta-Nehisi Coates article on The Case for Reparations. Or learn about the prevalence of lynchings. Or race riots in Oklahoma. Or vagrancy laws creating de facto slavary in the Deep South well into the 20th century. Or redlining. Or read The Warmth of Other Suns. Or just ask your Daughters of the Confederacy friends. I'm sure they're a reliable source if you'd rather be comfortable than honest.

Now you are labeling people whom you have never even met as racist.  I just don't understand this.
I am happy that SC decided to take it down.  I do not think it is appropriate that the Confederate flag be flown on government land.  That government that the flag symbolized ended in 1864.  We don't fly the British flag, do we?
I just think you should stop and realize that there are other points of view that are not necessariy racist or evil.  I still don't understand your anger. 

STARMOON44

There are lots of points of view that aren't evil and racist. None of them involve celebrating or honoring the Confederacy in any way. Your lovely friends might prefer not to think of themselves as racist, and have black friends, and give money to charity, but if you think any part of the confederacy is worthy of praise, you're also racist. I don't need to meet anyone in person to sort that one out.

MyNameIsNot

I'm a life-long southerner, and I'm thrilled to see that thing coming down. I don't understand how anyone can pretend the flag stands for something other than racism, especially when we consider that it went up in Charleston in 1961, in response to the civil rights movement. 

I know a few people who fly that thing. Every single one of them is racist. Although I can't stand to be around these people, at least they are honest about it. 

CMGragain

PS to everybody reading this:

I was born in Iowa, and moved around - a lot!  I lived in Memphis, TN, between 1962 and 1966, the longest I ever lived anywhere.  Coming from Iowa, I had never seen black people before.  I met many people who were unashamedly racist, and I did not like or understand them.  I also met many people who were enthusiastic about the changes that were happening in the south.  They made more sense to me.
My great-great grandfather fought on the Union side of the Civil War.  He was shot in the knee at Antietam, and so he didn't die with all his friends in that battle.  He enlisted four times, the first three times he was underage, but lied about it.  He ended a sergeant, and spent the rest of his life telling tales of battle and showing his scars.  He never walked without a limp.  I wish I could have known him in person.  My Great Aunt Sarah told me stories about him.
Do not judge history as simply "right" or "wrong".  Someday, other people will be judging you.  (I love studying history!)