Follow up: what if they both are drunk?

kkitkat79

There was a thread a while ago about an art student who protested the inability (or unwillingness) of her university to adequately address her allegations of rape.

I got some heat for a few things I said and I would like to bring back the discussion to this particular issue that I brought up - what if both parties are drunk. Some people thought that I am trivializing the issue, but I think it is anything but trivial. I stumbled on this reddit post and it does illuminate the complexity of the problem. Now I don't know whether this thing is real or not, google didn't help at all, but it does give a lot to think about, at least to me. What do you think?

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3cvui3/uh_this_is_kinda_bullshit/

AddieCake

I missed the first discussion, and that reddit appears to me like a stream of one-liners and cracks. Are you saying a man can't be a rapist if he is drunk?

hellohkb

Doesn't make a difference to me. Consent is still important whether you're drunk or sober.

justsie

kkitkat79 said:

There was a thread a while ago about an art student who protested the inability (or unwillingness) of her university to adequately address her allegations of rape.

I got some heat for a few things I said and I would like to bring back the discussion to this particular issue that I brought up - what if both parties are drunk. Some people thought that I am trivializing the issue, but I think it is anything but trivial. I stumbled on this reddit post and it does illuminate the complexity of the problem. Now I don't know whether this thing is real or not, google didn't help at all, but it does give a lot to think about, at least to me. What do you think?

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/3cvui3/uh_this_is_kinda_bullshit/

The image they are discussing is a very out of date way of thinking. Both men and women can be raped.

I only glanced at those comments but the first 4-5 scrolls I did were all men making jokes about gay and lesbian rape. That was a really triggering post by the way, so if any one is sensitive to reading men joke about raping people don't read the comments. Also a bunch of people saying its not rape to have sex with someone that is drunk. Also they all generally agree that this poster was a joke poster that someone made up or never actually existed in the first place. 

huskypuppy14

Are you fucking serious. What is your opinion on this. And I can't believe you posted a stupid reddit thread as a source.

The importance is consent. If a woman is drunk and passed out on the bed and a drunk man or woman comes in and has sex with her, he/she still raped her. 

themosthappy91

Is this a joke?

This has to be a joke...

WTF was supposed to me "illuminating" about that "discussion"?

jacques27

So, a reddit thread of ignorant, sexist, homophobic "jokes" really got you seriously questioning the definition of consent, eh?  Really?

What specifically did that thread make you ponder?

TrixieJess

In Ontario, if you are incapacitated, i.e. under the influence of drugs of alcohol or mentally unfit or unable to verbally give consent before or during sex, it is considered rape. This is why consent is now part of the sex-ed curriculum.

This goes for males and females, people in or out of relationships and people who may have said yes earlier in the evening but now are unable to consent.

I don't know what the laws are elsewhere, but I'm going to guess they are similar.

WinstonsGirl

I thought this was answered back in the last thread.  

kkitkat79

I was referring to the image, not the reddit discussion. Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to offend anyone. I didn't even read the comments. 

I think the poster does illuminate the problem of what happens when both parties are drunk, but not unconscious and one of the parties claims rape the next morning because drunk people cannot give consent. What happens then? I stops from the other party counter-claim?

My personal opinion is that one should be able to create relationships with other people before they engage in any type of sexual activity. One night stand is still a relationship even if a very short term one. Relationships are meant to benefit both people. So one should refrain from having sex until one is capable of forming these kinds of relationships. And I think it is up to parents and educators to teach children from a very young age how to build such relationships.

Unfortunately that does not solve the immediate problem raised in this poster whether it is real or not.     

kkitkat79

huskypuppy14 said:

Are you fucking serious. What is your opinion on this. And I can't believe you posted a stupid reddit thread as a source.

The importance is consent. If a woman is drunk and passed out on the bed and a drunk man or woman comes in and has sex with her, he/she still raped her. 

I absolutely agree with you. If a person is passed out and someone has sex with them that is rape. But that is not what the image was about.

AddieCake

So you're saying the guy getting accused of rape isn't fair because he, too, was drunk and was not capable of consent just like the woman wasn't?

pinupbride6189

I...I keep typing things in this box and then deleting it. Just. Holy Shit. I just can't with this right now. I'll come back and try to formulate a coherent response when my heart is out of my throat and my stomach is off the floor. 

themosthappy91

kkitkat79 said:

I was referring to the image, not the reddit discussion. Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to offend anyone. I didn't even read the comments. 

I think the poster does illuminate the problem of what happens when both parties are drunk, but not unconscious and one of the parties claims rape the next morning because drunk people cannot give consent. What happens then? I stops from the other party counter-claim?

My personal opinion is that one should be able to create relationships with other people before they engage in any type of sexual activity. One night stand is still a relationship even if a very short term one. Relationships are meant to benefit both people. So one should refrain from having sex until one is capable of forming these kinds of relationships. And I think it is up to parents and educators to teach children from a very young age how to build such relationships.

Unfortunately that does not solve the immediate problem raised in this poster whether it is real or not.     

I guess this is a reasonable question- can both parties claim rape if both were drunk but not unconscious?

kkitkat79

AddieCake said:

So you're saying the guy getting accused of rape isn't fair because he, too, was drunk and was not capable of consent just like the woman wasn't?

I am saying that it is not clear to me how the principle of not being able to consent under influence can be applied when both parties are drunk. What happens if a guy/girl wakes up in the morning and says he/she was raped because he/she was drunk the night before (but not passed out drunk)? What prevents the other person from claiming the same? 

 

AddieCake

kkitkat79 said:

AddieCake said:

So you're saying the guy getting accused of rape isn't fair because he, too, was drunk and was not capable of consent just like the woman wasn't?

I am saying that it is not clear to me how the principle of not being able to consent under influence can be applied when both parties are drunk. What happens if a guy/girl wakes up in the morning and says he/she was raped because he/she was drunk the night before (but not passed out drunk)? What prevents the other person from claiming the same? 

 

OK, gotcha.

huskypuppy14

kkitkat79 said:

I was referring to the image, not the reddit discussion. Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to offend anyone. I didn't even read the comments. 

I think the poster does illuminate the problem of what happens when both parties are drunk, but not unconscious and one of the parties claims rape the next morning because drunk people cannot give consent. What happens then? I stops from the other party counter-claim?

My personal opinion is that one should be able to create relationships with other people before they engage in any type of sexual activity. One night stand is still a relationship even if a very short term one. Relationships are meant to benefit both people. So one should refrain from having sex until one is capable of forming these kinds of relationships. And I think it is up to parents and educators to teach children from a very young age how to build such relationships.

Unfortunately that does not solve the immediate problem raised in this poster whether it is real or not.     

I think the point of the image (which I did not see the first time I clicked on the link) was that people (especially men) should be careful and make sure that the person you are having sex with is truly able to consent. Does this mean that technically people shouldn't be having sex when obliterated, yes probably. 

You realize people can still commit crimes when drunk, right.

kkitkat79

huskypuppy14 said:

kkitkat79 said:

I was referring to the image, not the reddit discussion. Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to offend anyone. I didn't even read the comments. 

I think the poster does illuminate the problem of what happens when both parties are drunk, but not unconscious and one of the parties claims rape the next morning because drunk people cannot give consent. What happens then? I stops from the other party counter-claim?

My personal opinion is that one should be able to create relationships with other people before they engage in any type of sexual activity. One night stand is still a relationship even if a very short term one. Relationships are meant to benefit both people. So one should refrain from having sex until one is capable of forming these kinds of relationships. And I think it is up to parents and educators to teach children from a very young age how to build such relationships.

Unfortunately that does not solve the immediate problem raised in this poster whether it is real or not.     

I think the point of the image (which I did not see the first time I clicked on the link) was that people (especially men) should be careful and make sure that the person you are having sex with is truly able to consent. Does this mean that technically people shouldn't be having sex when obliterated, yes probably. 

You realize people can still commit crimes when drunk, right.

Yes, I realize people can commit crimes when drunk. Drinking and driving happens all the time. What is not clear to me is whether there is a crime when both people are drunk, but not passed out and if there is a crime who committed it? They are both drunk so both are incapable of giving consent, but only one (at least at first) claims rape. Why can't the other person claim rape as well.

As to the bolded, I have a particular issue with that. Why especially men? Are women less capable handling alcohol? But that is a different discussion altogether.  

chibiyui

kkitkat79 said:

huskypuppy14 said:

kkitkat79 said:

I was referring to the image, not the reddit discussion. Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to offend anyone. I didn't even read the comments. 

I think the poster does illuminate the problem of what happens when both parties are drunk, but not unconscious and one of the parties claims rape the next morning because drunk people cannot give consent. What happens then? I stops from the other party counter-claim?

My personal opinion is that one should be able to create relationships with other people before they engage in any type of sexual activity. One night stand is still a relationship even if a very short term one. Relationships are meant to benefit both people. So one should refrain from having sex until one is capable of forming these kinds of relationships. And I think it is up to parents and educators to teach children from a very young age how to build such relationships.

Unfortunately that does not solve the immediate problem raised in this poster whether it is real or not.     

I think the point of the image (which I did not see the first time I clicked on the link) was that people (especially men) should be careful and make sure that the person you are having sex with is truly able to consent. Does this mean that technically people shouldn't be having sex when obliterated, yes probably. 

You realize people can still commit crimes when drunk, right.

Yes, I realize people can commit crimes when drunk. Drinking and driving happens all the time. What is not clear to me is whether there is a crime when both people are drunk, but not passed out and if there is a crime who committed it? They are both drunk so both are incapable of giving consent, but only one (at least at first) claims rape. Why can't the other person claim rape as well.

As to the bolded, I have a particular issue with that. Why especially men? Are women less capable handling alcohol? But that is a different discussion altogether.  

Oh I don't know. Let me get out my crystal ball and make sweeping generalizations that can't take into account any sort of nuance of human interaction and conversation that happened leading up to at best very bad decision making and at worst fucking rape.

justsie

kkitkat79 said:

huskypuppy14 said:

kkitkat79 said:

I was referring to the image, not the reddit discussion. Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean to offend anyone. I didn't even read the comments. 

I think the poster does illuminate the problem of what happens when both parties are drunk, but not unconscious and one of the parties claims rape the next morning because drunk people cannot give consent. What happens then? I stops from the other party counter-claim?

My personal opinion is that one should be able to create relationships with other people before they engage in any type of sexual activity. One night stand is still a relationship even if a very short term one. Relationships are meant to benefit both people. So one should refrain from having sex until one is capable of forming these kinds of relationships. And I think it is up to parents and educators to teach children from a very young age how to build such relationships.

Unfortunately that does not solve the immediate problem raised in this poster whether it is real or not.     

I think the point of the image (which I did not see the first time I clicked on the link) was that people (especially men) should be careful and make sure that the person you are having sex with is truly able to consent. Does this mean that technically people shouldn't be having sex when obliterated, yes probably. 

You realize people can still commit crimes when drunk, right.

Yes, I realize people can commit crimes when drunk. Drinking and driving happens all the time. What is not clear to me is whether there is a crime when both people are drunk, but not passed out and if there is a crime who committed it? They are both drunk so both are incapable of giving consent, but only one (at least at first) claims rape. Why can't the other person claim rape as well.

As to the bolded, I have a particular issue with that. Why especially men? Are women less capable handling alcohol? But that is a different discussion altogether.  

BOXES

Husky was specifacally referring to the poster, which highlighted that issue for men. 

kkitkat79

justsie said:

kkitkat79 said:

huskypuppy14 said:

  

I think the point of the image (which I did not see the first time I clicked on the link) was that people (especially men) should be careful and make sure that the person you are having sex with is truly able to consent. Does this mean that technically people shouldn't be having sex when obliterated, yes probably. 

You realize people can still commit crimes when drunk, right.

Yes, I realize people can commit crimes when drunk. Drinking and driving happens all the time. What is not clear to me is whether there is a crime when both people are drunk, but not passed out and if there is a crime who committed it? They are both drunk so both are incapable of giving consent, but only one (at least at first) claims rape. Why can't the other person claim rape as well.

As to the bolded, I have a particular issue with that. Why especially men? Are women less capable handling alcohol? But that is a different discussion altogether.  

BOXES

Husky was specifacally referring to the poster, which highlighted that issue for men. 

Oh, I realize that. My issues is with the poster, not husky.

kkitkat79

chibiyui said:

kkitkat79 said:

Yes, I realize people can commit crimes when drunk. Drinking and driving happens all the time. What is not clear to me is whether there is a crime when both people are drunk, but not passed out and if there is a crime who committed it? They are both drunk so both are incapable of giving consent, but only one (at least at first) claims rape. Why can't the other person claim rape as well.

As to the bolded, I have a particular issue with that. Why especially men? Are women less capable handling alcohol? But that is a different discussion altogether.  

Oh I don't know. Let me get out my crystal ball and make sweeping generalizations that can't take into account any sort of nuance of human interaction and conversation that happened leading up to at best very bad decision making and at worst fucking rape.

I am sure you are referring to the sweeping generalization of the "cannot give consent under the influence" principle which I think is somewhat problematic for the reason I pointed out above.

You are trivializing a very complex problem that has real life implications.

huskypuppy14

Men can be raped by women. No one is saying that doesn't happen. But men raping women (or other men) is more common and just easier, due to the male anatomy. If you don't understand that, I can't explain it to you. 

FiancB

kkitkat79 said:

chibiyui said:

kkitkat79 said:

Yes, I realize people can commit crimes when drunk. Drinking and driving happens all the time. What is not clear to me is whether there is a crime when both people are drunk, but not passed out and if there is a crime who committed it? They are both drunk so both are incapable of giving consent, but only one (at least at first) claims rape. Why can't the other person claim rape as well.

As to the bolded, I have a particular issue with that. Why especially men? Are women less capable handling alcohol? But that is a different discussion altogether.  

Oh I don't know. Let me get out my crystal ball and make sweeping generalizations that can't take into account any sort of nuance of human interaction and conversation that happened leading up to at best very bad decision making and at worst fucking rape.

I am sure you are referring to the sweeping generalization of the "cannot give consent under the influence" principle which I think is somewhat problematic for the reason I pointed out above.

You are trivializing a very complex problem that has real life implications.

Preemptively assuming the quotes won't work.

She's really not. Her post is taking issue with it being trivialized. You, otoh, seem to really enjoy playing devil's advocate for rapists.

STARMOON44

Why especially men? Because men are especially rape-y. Can a man be raped? Sure. Is rape primarily a violence men inflict on women? Absolutely.

[Deleted User]

southernbelle0915

There are lots of hypotheticals. And no one is saying men can't be raped. I don't know the actual numbers but I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say the rape of women is a lot more common. Not only because of a male dominated culture and general attitudes towards women, but because of basic anatomy (like @huskypuppy14 already mentioned).

So sure....could a drunk woman claim rape and then her drunk male partner counter by also claiming rape? Yea, that could happen. Anything can happen. But they didn't just fall into bed naked together, so there would be more to the story that the police or whoever would need to sort out.

You seem to really be affected by that thread and a little sensitive about men being allowed to claim rape. Do you really have this hard of a time understanding consent? Did you do any actual research on consent between that last thread and now, or just skim reddit? Why did you bring this here after so long? What is your story?

MyNameIsNot

Why do we have to act like rape is something different than a violent crime?

If you're drunk and you murder someone, it's still murder. If you're on drugs and rob a bank, it's still robbery. Why would we treat rape any differently?  Of course you can rape while you're drunk. 

AddieCake

MyNameIsNot said:

Why do we have to act like rape is something different than a violent crime?

If you're drunk and you murder someone, it's still murder. If you're on drugs and rob a bank, it's still robbery. Why would we treat rape any differently?  Of course you can rape while you're drunk. 

She didn't say someone couldn't.

redoryx

A person legally cannot give consent while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. That's an indisputable fact, there is no grey area here. It doesn't matter if they are passed out, if the person is drunk they cannot give consent. Silence cannot be read as implied consent either. 

So even if both people are drunk, if Person A believes they were raped that doesn't mean they weren't just because Person B was also drunk and maybe doesn't remember what happens. Even if Person B believes it was consensual, if Person A was drunk they legally couldn't have agreed anyway.  

huskypuppy14

redoryx said:

A person legally cannot give consent while under the influence of drugs or alcohol. That's an indisputable fact, there is no grey area here. It doesn't matter if they are passed out, if the person is drunk they cannot give consent. Silence cannot be read as implied consent either. 

So even if both people are drunk, if Person A believes they were raped that doesn't mean they weren't just because Person B was also drunk and maybe doesn't remember what happens. Even if Person B believes it was consensual, if Person A was drunk they legally couldn't have agreed anyway.  

I think OP is getting at what if A and B are drunk, and both claim rape? That rarely happens, and we can't speculate on what the correct assumption is because it's a hypothetical. Each situation is different, but on a whole it's wise for everyone to not sleep with drunk people.