Should marriage be privatized?

anjemon

TrixieJess said:

anjemon said:

kkitkat79 said:

@hellowsweetie1015, As soon as you allow polyamorous marriages you effectively extend marriage benefits to everyone. Nothing will preclude people from walking into a marriage license office, pretend to be in love, get legally married and get the benefits. I personally have no issues with it. It will effectively solve the discrimination problem so yay, everyone wins!

HOLD UP. So is this the answer you were looking for? Everybody gets to marry any human person they deem fit (or two or three or whatever) and it's all good, no more privitization needed? Because we could (and basically did) say that ages ago.

I'm even wondering if OP knows many Poly units. I know several of the ones that I know don't rate marriage very high.

I don't think I know any Poly units, so my question completely comes out of curiosity. Are those typically the sort of relationships that are planning to stay together long term and want to get legally bound? It would seem more like the sort of relationship where you don't tie to each other too strongly so it is easier to separate when desired. But that just might be TV talking.

kkitkat79

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

[Deleted User]

anjemon said:

TrixieJess said:

anjemon said:

kkitkat79 said:

@hellowsweetie1015, As soon as you allow polyamorous marriages you effectively extend marriage benefits to everyone. Nothing will preclude people from walking into a marriage license office, pretend to be in love, get legally married and get the benefits. I personally have no issues with it. It will effectively solve the discrimination problem so yay, everyone wins!

HOLD UP. So is this the answer you were looking for? Everybody gets to marry any human person they deem fit (or two or three or whatever) and it's all good, no more privitization needed? Because we could (and basically did) say that ages ago.

I'm even wondering if OP knows many Poly units. I know several of the ones that I know don't rate marriage very high.

I don't think I know any Poly units, so my question completely comes out of curiosity. Are those typically the sort of relationships that are planning to stay together long term and want to get legally bound? It would seem more like the sort of relationship where you don't tie to each other too strongly so it is easier to separate when desired. But that just might be TV talking.

My understanding is that it depends on the kind of "Poly" you are talking about. Polygamists may want to be able to become (legally) married as a unit. But from what I've read about people in polyamorous relationships, it doesn't seem like marriage is usually something all parties want. I've always thought people in polyamorous relationships were generally averse to anything monogamous people were all about (aka marriage). Obviously this depends on the group and the people involved, as well as their circumstances and relationships with one another. This is the first time I've heard that people is polyamorous relationships want to be married as a unit. 

anjemon

Alright, now I'm curious (and just keeping this thread going. Feel free to ignore me if you want):

Has anybody heard of someone getting turned down for a marriage license? For any reason other than already being married and not having the divorce completed?

TrixieJess

abcdevonn said:

anjemon said:

TrixieJess said:

anjemon said:

kkitkat79 said:

@hellowsweetie1015, As soon as you allow polyamorous marriages you effectively extend marriage benefits to everyone. Nothing will preclude people from walking into a marriage license office, pretend to be in love, get legally married and get the benefits. I personally have no issues with it. It will effectively solve the discrimination problem so yay, everyone wins!

HOLD UP. So is this the answer you were looking for? Everybody gets to marry any human person they deem fit (or two or three or whatever) and it's all good, no more privitization needed? Because we could (and basically did) say that ages ago.

I'm even wondering if OP knows many Poly units. I know several of the ones that I know don't rate marriage very high.

I don't think I know any Poly units, so my question completely comes out of curiosity. Are those typically the sort of relationships that are planning to stay together long term and want to get legally bound? It would seem more like the sort of relationship where you don't tie to each other too strongly so it is easier to separate when desired. But that just might be TV talking.

My understanding is that it depends on the kind of "Poly" you are talking about. Polygamists may want to be able to become (legally) married as a unit. But from what I've read about people in polyamorous relationships, it doesn't seem like marriage is usually something all parties want. I've always thought people in polyamorous relationships were generally averse to anything monogamous people were all about (aka marriage). Obviously this depends on the group and the people involved, as well as their circumstances and relationships with one another. This is the first time I've heard that people is polyamorous relationships want to be married as a unit. 

What she said ^^

ShesSoCold

I used to know a poly family where three members lived together all as spouses. Two were married and the third was considered a "wife" although obviously not legally. A quick facebook stalk confirms that they are all still together and have been for over ten years. I would assume they would like the married benefits but, if I remember correctly, they have wills and things in order for medical and some financial things.

TrixieJess

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

My rebuttal:

anjemon

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

If you think marriage is a private affair I think you just have to get "privately" married and not involved the government or get any of the "benefits" of it. Because if you're going to have the government approve the contract they have the ability to reject it too. I don't think there is any way to get legally married without having the government at least somewhat involved. But I know plenty of people who consider themselves married religiously without involving the government at all, they're just not legally married.

STARMOON44

anjemon said:

Alright, now I'm curious (and just keeping this thread going. Feel free to ignore me if you want):

Has anybody heard of someone getting turned down for a marriage license? For any reason other than already being married and not having the divorce completed?

There are still sporadic reports of interracial couples being turned down in some parts of Alabama, and of course same sex couples continue to be turned down in a small handful of counties. People who are underage are routinely denied marriage licenses. Ditto people who are closely related depending on the state.

kkitkat79

TrixieJess said:

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

My rebuttal:

Look at that, something we agree on.

TrixieJess

kkitkat79 said:

TrixieJess said:

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

My rebuttal:

Look at that, something we agree on.

I'm so glad that you agree that what you wrote was idiotic, it saves me so much time. See, I don't have to call you out on anything, you are more than happy to do it for me. Thanks princess.

kkitkat79

TrixieJess said:

TrixieJess said:

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

My rebuttal:

Look at that, something we agree on.

I'm so glad that you agree that what you wrote was idiotic, it saves me so much time. See, I don't have to call you out on anything, you are more than happy to do it for me. Thanks princess.

Oops, there we go disagreeing again. I agree with the sentiment that idiots happen. I mistakenly thought that you expressed the same sentiment, thank you for correcting me.

Again, do you have any arguments other than ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority? And why is it so hard for you to admit that all consenting adults have the right to get married in any way they want to? You have never said that that is what you think. Is it?

kkitkat79

@anjemom But the issue is bigger than me. I think it's private. Clearly the majority here don't share my opinion. People think that being recognized by the government as married is a right. Well, if it is a right, everyone should get it. 

ShesSoCold

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemom But the issue is bigger than me. I think it's private. Clearly the majority here don't share my opinion. People think that being recognized by the government as married is a right. Well, if it is a right, everyone should get it. 

But your OP said that single, unmarried people are "discriminated against". Are you still trying to argue in circles about that or just poly relationships now?

Teddy917

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemom But the issue is bigger than me. I think it's private. Clearly the majority here don't share my opinion. People think that being recognized by the government as married is a right. Well, if it is a right, everyone should get it. 

There are a ton of rights that are denied to certain groups of people. It's a sad truth, but arguing about it over the internet will do nothing.

@kkitkat79 Instead of arguing about it, why don't you put your energy into doing something about it?

kkitkat79

ShesSoCold said:

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemom But the issue is bigger than me. I think it's private. Clearly the majority here don't share my opinion. People think that being recognized by the government as married is a right. Well, if it is a right, everyone should get it. 

But your OP said that single, unmarried people are "discriminated against". Are you still trying to argue in circles about that or just poly relationships now?

No, I still think that unmarried and singles are discriminated* against. However, if poly marriage becomes legal that will no longer be an issue. 

It is already true that any two single people can walk into a marriage license office, get a license, get married and get the benefits. When poly marriages are legal anyone will be able to do that so that effectively solves the discrimination problem.

*Take the negative connotation out of it. By "discriminated against" I just mean they don't have access to the same things. That is true; they don't.

Teddy917

kkitkat79 said:

ShesSoCold said:

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemom But the issue is bigger than me. I think it's private. Clearly the majority here don't share my opinion. People think that being recognized by the government as married is a right. Well, if it is a right, everyone should get it. 

But your OP said that single, unmarried people are "discriminated against". Are you still trying to argue in circles about that or just poly relationships now?

No, I still think that unmarried and singles are discriminated* against. However, if poly marriage becomes legal that will no longer be an issue. 

It is already true that any two single people can walk into a marriage license office, get a license, get married and get the benefits. When poly marriages are legal anyone will be able to do that so that effectively solves the discrimination problem.

*Take the negative connotation out of it. By "discriminated against" I just mean they don't have access to the same things. That is true; they don't.

That still won't give single people the same benefits. Yes, more people will be able to be married, but that doesn't change anything for single people.

TrixieJess

kkitkat79 said:

TrixieJess said:

kkitkat79 said:

TrixieJess said:

kkitkat79 said:

@anjemon Only you, @hellowsweetie1015, and @Viszaecar explicitly stated that you have no issues with extending marriage to any form of relationship between consenting adults. @ShesSoCold said that she is not educated enough to have an opinion on the subject, some other people on the other thread explicitly said that marriage is between any two people, and there has been a lot of talk about how really there are not that many benefits to marriage after all.

The reason why I brought up privatization is one, because I see no other politically feasible way to allow poly units to marry. Like it or not, religion is a big part of US politics and they will never go for it. Also, I do believe that marriage is a private affair between consenting adults and I shouldn't have to ask the government whether it is ok for me to get married.

@TrixieJess, it is irrelevant whether people want to get married. The question is should they be able to?

My rebuttal:

Look at that, something we agree on.

I'm so glad that you agree that what you wrote was idiotic, it saves me so much time. See, I don't have to call you out on anything, you are more than happy to do it for me. Thanks princess.


Oops, there we go disagreeing again. I agree with the sentiment that idiots happen. I mistakenly thought that you expressed the same sentiment, thank you for correcting me.

Again, do you have any arguments other than ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority? And why is it so hard for you to admit that all consenting adults have the right to get married in any way they want to? You have never said that that is what you think. Is it?

Never said they didn't. You are arguing for a group of people who may or may not give a flying fuck about the right to be married instead of focusing on what's important. Since you like to throw terms around, we call that a red herring. It's to take away from your bigoted remarks in other threads, as well as your clueless and sexist remarks. We'll throw in your rape apologist comments for good measure. Nope, just a whole lot of nopity nope. I'm sure your husband would be thrilled that you don't mind being married to him, as long as he follows the contract..

kkitkat79

@Teddy917 By single I mean romantically unattached. Single people are able to get into marriages of convenience. People already do it to circumvent immigration laws.      

HeatherKat

I'm really confused how letting poly marriages happen stops "discrimination" against single people.

kkitkat79

@TrixieJess, I stand behind everything I have ever said on here. We can discuss my alleged bigotry and sexism if you want, but we probably should have a different thread for it.

With respect to discussion at hand, I think marriage is very important, I just don't think about it in the same terms as you apparently do. 

If you don't mind I have another question for you. Is the only reason you think it was important to legalize marriage is because gay people wanted it? What about the principle of it?   

kkitkat79

@HeatherKat, Groups of single friends would be able to enter poly marriage of convenience to get the benefits associated with marriage. 

HeatherKat

kkitkat79 said:

@HeatherKat, Groups of single friends would be able to enter poly marriage of convenience to get the benefits associated with marriage. 

Couldn't pairs of single friends team up to defraud the government currently? Why do multiple people need to do it?

kkitkat79

HeatherKat said:

@HeatherKat, Groups of single friends would be able to enter poly marriage of convenience to get the benefits associated with marriage. 

Couldn't pairs of single friends team up to defraud the government currently? Why do multiple people need to do it?

Absolutely they can. I concede that in practice the discrimination problem of singles is probably very negligible. I am thinking in lines of what if there is an odd number of friends; one will be left out.

Can I ask why you consider marriage of convenience between close friends a fraud? Does romantic involvement have to be a part of marriage?  

lyndausvi

kkitkat79 said:

@HeatherKat, Groups of single friends would be able to enter poly marriage of convenience to get the benefits associated with marriage. 

What benefits do you want your group of single friends to get?    You mean survival benefits for pensions and SS?  So you want the SS to have to pay out a bunch of friends SS benefits for one worker?  Yeah, the SS is already in trouble, having to pay out 4 spouses for one worker benefit will just deplete SS even more. And what about they other way? Say you are married to 4 people and they all die are you able to now get benefits from all 4 of them?

My DH's company pays 100% of his medical and 80% of mine.  So now you want them to pay out even more in medical benefits?  Yeah, that will just result them into not paying any spouses or domestic partnership benefits.

Medical decisions ?    Yeah, I've seen first hand how a group of people handles medical decisions.  Trust me, it's not pretty.  Let's add in what happens if you die.   At least with one spouse it's a little more straightforward. Not completely, but a little bit.  A bunch of friends who want to get married for benefits?  Yeah I can see a real shit show happening.

 

[Deleted User]

lyndausvi said:

kkitkat79 said:

@HeatherKat, Groups of single friends would be able to enter poly marriage of convenience to get the benefits associated with marriage. 

What benefits do you want your group of single friends to get?    You mean survival benefits for pensions and SS?  So you want the SS to have to pay out a bunch of friends SS benefits for one worker?  Yeah, the SS is already in trouble, having to pay out 4 spouses for one worker benefit will just deplete SS even more. And what about they other way? Say you are married to 4 people and they all die are you able to now get benefits from all 4 of them?

My DH's company pays 100% of his medical and 80% of mine.  So now you want them to pay out even more in medical benefits?  Yeah, that will just result them into not paying any spouses or domestic partnership benefits.

Medical decisions ?    Yeah, I've seen first hand how a group of people handles medical decisions.  Trust me, it's not pretty.  Let's add in what happens if you die.   At least with one spouse it's a little more straightforward. Not completely, but a little bit.  A bunch of friends who want to get married for benefits?  Yeah I can see a real shit show happening.

 

For real. You have been unable to explain exactly what benefits you think people are missing out on, other than SS benefits, which we've all already debunked as "not as great as you apparently think they are."

HeatherKat

Jesus Christ. If they are that desperate I'm sure they can find some random person to commit their life to in order to possibly receive a tax break.

It's absolutely fraud when you enter into a marriage purely for the benefits with no intention of living as a married couple.

lyndausvi

There is nothing stopping a single person from giving their insurance benefits or even their 401K to a friend.

kkitkat79

I am not sure how I can put it any other way. It does not matter at all what kind of benefits are available to married people. What matters is that they are not available to everyone. I am trying to understand the principle that you think guides differentiation between married people and unmarried people on a state level. I am not talking about private differentiation.   

For example, food stamps are not available to people with income above certain level. That is fine. There is a good reason why food stamps are only available to poor people. They are poor, we want to help them not be poor. The principle is that we want to help poor people.

What is the principle behind affording special consideration to married people? Can anyone answer me this question?

HeatherKat

Sure, I'd be happy to do your Googling for you.

HERE is an article from Slate that is SSM specific, but I think the points stand on a larger scale as well.

HERE is an article from Psychology Today, also extolling the virtues of marriage. It does so by comparing monogamy vs polygamy, but I believe that a committed polygamous relationship would offer many of the same benefits as traditional monogamy.

and HERE is an article from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishop's National Pastoral Initiative for Marriage, feature multitudes of links to studies supporting their findings.