Etiquette

Does everyone need a plus one here?

edited August 2015 in Etiquette

My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


Re: Does everyone need a plus one here?


  • My FI has 5 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    Yea, that's a typo in the first sentence. I meant 5 married and 6 total. Oops :-(
  • I edited the typo now so it is correct
  • My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    I don't even have to read your whole post to tell you that you must invite everyone who has a SO with their SO, by name.  So yes, the girlfriend should be invited regardless of the relationship she has with your FI.

    And these are not plus one's.  Plus one's are people that your guest gets to choose to bring to  your wedding.  SO's are individuals who are in a relationship with the invited guest and they should always be invited and by name.
    The boss mentioned asked about a month ago if he was being given a plus one. His words, not mine. I think he knew this would be something that would come up eventually. He also said it was fine either way, but sometimes people say things and don't mean them, and I imagine this is one of those situations.
  • AddieCakeAddieCake Beyond the Wall
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    I stopped reading at "doesn't want to invite his girlfriend."
    What did you think would happen if you walked up to a group of internet strangers and told them to get shoehorned by their lady doc?~StageManager14
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  • Maggie0829Maggie0829 Ravens & Bohs & Crabs & O's
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    My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    I don't even have to read your whole post to tell you that you must invite everyone who has a SO with their SO, by name.  So yes, the girlfriend should be invited regardless of the relationship she has with your FI.

    And these are not plus one's.  Plus one's are people that your guest gets to choose to bring to  your wedding.  SO's are individuals who are in a relationship with the invited guest and they should always be invited and by name.
    The boss mentioned asked about a month ago if he was being given a plus one. His words, not mine. I think he knew this would be something that would come up eventually. He also said it was fine either way, but sometimes people say things and don't mean them, and I imagine this is one of those situations.
    Probably because he has been invited solo to other weddings because he and his GF aren't married.  Which is very rude.  Using that reason as a cut off is extremely judgmental of their relationship.  Basically you (general you) would be saying that their relationship is not as important as those with a husband or wife.  So he is probably just wondering if he will be snubbed again with your wedding.

    So basically your FI needs to suck it up and deal with the fact that this person must be invited with his boss.

  • My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    I don't even have to read your whole post to tell you that you must invite everyone who has a SO with their SO, by name.  So yes, the girlfriend should be invited regardless of the relationship she has with your FI.

    And these are not plus one's.  Plus one's are people that your guest gets to choose to bring to  your wedding.  SO's are individuals who are in a relationship with the invited guest and they should always be invited and by name.
    The boss mentioned asked about a month ago if he was being given a plus one. His words, not mine. I think he knew this would be something that would come up eventually. He also said it was fine either way, but sometimes people say things and don't mean them, and I imagine this is one of those situations.
    Probably because he has been invited solo to other weddings because he and his GF aren't married.  Which is very rude.  Using that reason as a cut off is extremely judgmental of their relationship.  Basically you (general you) would be saying that their relationship is not as important as those with a husband or wife.  So he is probably just wondering if he will be snubbed again with your wedding.

    So basically your FI needs to suck it up and deal with the fact that this person must be invited with his boss.
    I was thinking about just adding her name really without him agreeing, but I do need to get the correct spelling (I have no idea how to spell her first name) and I don't know her last name. And my only source to look it up was FB, and I don't think she has it.
  • Let alone how rude it is to not invite someone's SO, why would you do it to one of your bosses? That is not a good career move. Especially if everyone involved in this whole thing works in the same office.

    His boss also chose to date one of his employees. And it's not your typical office setting, this kind of stuff happens there all the time. But I think I know she should be invited, I just don't know how to relay that info to FI and get him to agree.
  • My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    I don't even have to read your whole post to tell you that you must invite everyone who has a SO with their SO, by name.  So yes, the girlfriend should be invited regardless of the relationship she has with your FI.

    And these are not plus one's.  Plus one's are people that your guest gets to choose to bring to  your wedding.  SO's are individuals who are in a relationship with the invited guest and they should always be invited and by name.
    The boss mentioned asked about a month ago if he was being given a plus one. His words, not mine. I think he knew this would be something that would come up eventually. He also said it was fine either way, but sometimes people say things and don't mean them, and I imagine this is one of those situations.
    Probably because he has been invited solo to other weddings because he and his GF aren't married.  Which is very rude.  Using that reason as a cut off is extremely judgmental of their relationship.  Basically you (general you) would be saying that their relationship is not as important as those with a husband or wife.  So he is probably just wondering if he will be snubbed again with your wedding.

    So basically your FI needs to suck it up and deal with the fact that this person must be invited with his boss.
    I was thinking about just adding her name really without him agreeing, but I do need to get the correct spelling (I have no idea how to spell her first name) and I don't know her last name. And my only source to look it up was FB, and I don't think she has it.
    I think this is a bad idea.  You need to talk to your FI about this.  He should know who is being invited.  Basically you need to explain to him that not inviting her would be very rude and the last thing you want to do is be rude to his boss.  Tell him you understand his distaste for her but this wedding is no longer about the two of you now that you have included guests.  All he will need to do is say a simple "thanks for coming" to this woman and then go about the rest of his evening as he would like.

    Basically your FI needs to grow up and deal.
    We're in the home stretch of everything. This is the type of thing that I didn't ever forsee coming up, but it brings a lot of interesting scenarios to light. At the very least I find FI and I having conversations about stuff that would've never come up otherwise, like I didn't know he didn't get along with everyone at work, until we started planning a wedding. Eloping is way out of the question at this point, but I get why people do it!
  • Jen4948Jen4948 Houston
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    My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    Invite the girlfriend.

    If you invite this boss or anyone with a girlfriend, the girlfriend can't be omitted.  She's not a "plus one," which is someone who accompanies an unattached single by invitation.  She's an "SO" (significant other) which is a spouse, fiancé/e, boyfriend, or girlfriend, whether or not they live together and regardless of how long they've been together.

    And even if she's been rude to you and to your FI, do you really think not inviting her will make her treat you with politeness or graciousness at work?  Not to mention that it will hurt his boss and turn him against your FI. 

    So I'd tell your FI that although you understand why he doesn't want to invite the girlfriend, not doing so wouldn't be polite and would probably create more problems for him at work.

    adk19anjemonlc07
  • YOU know what needs to be done here, now just use this group of bossy etiquette hags as your scapegoat when explaining to your FI why you now know it to be true. We'll take the blame :)
    adk19SP29JediElizabethMoiramab
  • ShesSoColdShesSoCold bend over and I'll show ya
    Moderator 5000 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary
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    My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    The bolded is wrong. Flat out wrong. If anyone on your guest list is in a relationship of any length of time, they need to be invited with their SO, by name. Period. Few things are worse than asking someone to celebrate your relationship while you slap theirs in the face,
    image
    adk19huskypuppy14
  • I sympathize with you, OP.  So far I've explained to my FI why the following things are rude and we definitely aren't going to do:
    B-list (he may have been joking)
    Special stash of craft beer for GMs
    Gift information on the invites (he claims it's normal here, I'm skeptical)
    Tiered guest list (this is actually a confirmed cultural difference)
    Standing guests during the ceremony (another cultural difference...)
    And last but not least... coworker's SOs

    With the last one he gave out an exasperated sigh and said, "well, what if I just don't care about etiquette."  The thing that is truly mind boggling is that if we were to host a dinner party he would never dream of doing any of these things, he's actually a very good host and thoughtful person, but something about the wedding being "our day" has warped something.

    Your FI needs to understand this reflects poorly on him, and with his boss no less.  I don't know how many people you're inviting, but he probably won't notice her there beyond thanking her for her attendance.  This is a great time to be the bigger person, and if she's snarky and rude to you on your wedding day then the only person that looks bad is her.

    And making the cut at married couples is BS.
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  • SP29SP29
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    Yes, this woman needs to be invited as she is the SO of another guest. All SOs, regardless of martial status and length of time together, need to be invited by name.

    (To review, a plus one, or "and guest" means that your invited guest can bring ANYONE they want. So unless you are cool with a guest bringing their mom, sibling, or old college roommate, best to state whom you'd like them to bring. Similarly, if the SO can't come, your invited guest would come alone, versus "filling in" the spot with someone else. Regardless, it would still be rude to the SO not to invite them by name).

    I agree with telling your FI that it is likely to create more waves at work by not inviting her. He really won't notice her and only has to thank her for coming once, otherwise he can avoid her.
  • My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    The bolded is wrong. Flat out wrong. If anyone on your guest list is in a relationship of any length of time, they need to be invited with their SO, by name. Period. Few things are worse than asking someone to celebrate your relationship while you slap theirs in the face,

    I was so focused on the boss girlfriend thing I completely missed that part.

    OP, have you invited people who significant others they aren't married to that you didn't invite as well? 
    image
  • redoryx said:

    My FI has 6 bosses (that’s right 6, picture office space getting annoyed about tps reports by several people several times a day). 5 of which are married and 1 has a girlfriend. Long story short, he is very good friends with his boss’s and has been for years (they were friends before he started working for them). He does not want to invite the boss’s girlfriend to our wedding. He works with his boss’s girlfriend too.

    I do not work with him so everything I’m told is from his point of view, but from his stories, he has had a rocky relationship with this girl, they in short, do not get along AT ALL. Not only have him and the girl never been friends, but he says she has gone out of her way to be rude to him and to make rude comments about me (I don’t even really know this girl). I will admit, I’ve visited him at work and she has never been very polite to me either. I'd wave hello and she'd turn her back to me. It's silly stuff, but when he says people ask him about the wedding at work she'll roll her eyes, make comments under her breath, or just laugh and walk away.

    His inclination is to not invite her to the wedding. He thinks as long as we stick with, we only invited people with their SO if they are married (which would be true of the people he knows), then it is ok to leave her name off. His other rationale is “why would she want to come, she has made it clear she doesn’t like us”, but I know his boss wants to come and it feels weird to not invite her with him. I said "we are having a big reception, will you even really notice if she is here if we put him at a table in the back?" And he responded with "Her mere presence annoys me, it our day, I should be able to have who I want there."

    How do I make any logic out of this situation? What would you do?


    The bolded is wrong. Flat out wrong. If anyone on your guest list is in a relationship of any length of time, they need to be invited with their SO, by name. Period. Few things are worse than asking someone to celebrate your relationship while you slap theirs in the face,

    I was so focused on the boss girlfriend thing I completely missed that part.

    OP, have you invited people who significant others they aren't married to that you didn't invite as well? 
    I think that the fact everyone else on our guest list is either married or single is just a weird coincidence. Out of our entire guest list, our guests are either married, engaged or single. He truly is the only one on our guest list who has a girlfriend but is not married/engaged to the woman. I'm sure we'll just end up inviting her. Like @TheCheeseWench said, I'll just blame you guys :-)
  • Spoonsey said:
    I sympathize with you, OP.  So far I've explained to my FI why the following things are rude and we definitely aren't going to do:
    B-list (he may have been joking)
    Special stash of craft beer for GMs
    Gift information on the invites (he claims it's normal here, I'm skeptical)
    Tiered guest list (this is actually a confirmed cultural difference)
    Standing guests during the ceremony (another cultural difference...)
    And last but not least... coworker's SOs

    With the last one he gave out an exasperated sigh and said, "well, what if I just don't care about etiquette."  The thing that is truly mind boggling is that if we were to host a dinner party he would never dream of doing any of these things, he's actually a very good host and thoughtful person, but something about the wedding being "our day" has warped something.

    Your FI needs to understand this reflects poorly on him, and with his boss no less.  I don't know how many people you're inviting, but he probably won't notice her there beyond thanking her for her attendance.  This is a great time to be the bigger person, and if she's snarky and rude to you on your wedding day then the only person that looks bad is her.

    And making the cut at married couples is BS.
    I told FI that he needs to take some time googling wedding stuff like what's posted on here too, he just keeps going off of what his friends tell him, and I do believe they may fall into the etiquette-challenged group as well.
  • From an etiquette perspective, ALL SOs need to be invited, not just the ones y'all feel are "worthy". Meaning that y'all should not draw the line at "only married" or "only engaged" or "only been together for a year" or some other arbitrary rule. 

    The etiquette rule is: If the guest considers themselves as "in a relationship", so should you and that individual should be invited - BY NAME (not "and Guest") on the invitation. 

    Therefore, if your FI wants to invite his boss, the girlfriend gets invited too (BY NAME). To leave her off the invitation would be super rude and a huge "f - you" to their relationship. Not exactly something he should strive for with his boss, of all people...
    *********************************************************************************

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  • SP29SP29
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    From an etiquette perspective, ALL SOs need to be invited, not just the ones y'all feel are "worthy". Meaning that y'all should not draw the line at "only married" or "only engaged" or "only been together for a year" or some other arbitrary rule. 

    The etiquette rule is: If the guest considers themselves as "in a relationship", so should you and that individual should be invited - BY NAME (not "and Guest") on the invitation. 

    Therefore, if your FI wants to invite his boss, the girlfriend gets invited too (BY NAME). To leave her off the invitation would be super rude and a huge "f - you" to their relationship. Not exactly something he should strive for with his boss, of all people...
    Yeah, tell him this. And that it would be wise not to say, "F-you!" to his BOSS.
    adk19
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