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I'm going to put my head through a wall...

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Re: I'm going to put my head through a wall...

  • STARMOON44STARMOON44 member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited June 2016
    Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 
  • DrillSergeantCatDrillSergeantCat Oklahoma City, OK member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 
    I think the point she's trying to make is by saying "if you own a gun then fuck you, you're the root of all this evil, you're responsible for every gun death," is that at you then alienate anyone who would have been willing to listen to you.
    scrunchythief
  • flantasticflantastic The Midwest member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 
    I understand. You'd rather be self-righteous and indignant than an actual force for change.

    Anniversary

  • I was talking to H about this, and he also said it's relatively easy to modify some rifles into automatic.  To his knowledge, you can't do that, or at least not easily do that with a handgun.

    What I don't know though is how many rifles modified into automatic have been involved in mass shootings.

    SaveSave
    scrunchythief
  • monkeysip said:
    I was talking to H about this, and he also said it's relatively easy to modify some rifles into automatic.  To his knowledge, you can't do that, or at least not easily do that with a handgun.

    What I don't know though is how many rifles modified into automatic have been involved in mass shootings.
    I'm not entirely sure of this but can gun owners also chime in on the legality of doing this?   I thought that was already a crime.  
  • banana468 said:
    monkeysip said:
    I was talking to H about this, and he also said it's relatively easy to modify some rifles into automatic.  To his knowledge, you can't do that, or at least not easily do that with a handgun.

    What I don't know though is how many rifles modified into automatic have been involved in mass shootings.
    I'm not entirely sure of this but can gun owners also chime in on the legality of doing this?   I thought that was already a crime.  
    It IS a crime.  I'm not saying it's legal.  I'm just saying that its easy, and no one would ever know until after you killed a bunch of people.  

    SaveSave
    scrunchythief
  • Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 
    I understand. You'd rather be self-righteous and indignant than an actual force for change.
    For the purposes of wedding chat board conversation? Yes. But please don't assume my involvement in this issue is limited to this discussion. I don't assume yours is. Righteous indignation can be a powerful force for change. It's amazing how quickly society can change with a strong message of "I think you and what you are doing is reprehensible and has no place in our society."

  • Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 


    One of the first things you said to me in this discussion is "we will obviously never agree on any of this" and you dismissed my opinion the second I said I was a gun owner. But had you stopped to listen to me, or to any of the other people here, you would have seen that most of us actually do agree with much of your proposal. I know we're small snippet here, but literally no one has said "fuck gun control and everyone should be able to have any gun they want and I love mass shootings". The comments from gun owners here have been exactly the opposite of that, but we've been lumped into your "fuck gun owners" category.

    YOU are the only one being obtuse and unwilling to even listen to the other side. How is that better than the pro-gun people you despise?


    Genuinely confused here. Am I missing proposals gun owners are making on here about how to reduce gun violence? Beyond deal with society to reduce hate? What I'm seeing is a lot of "no that idea won't work" and "I love my guns because reasons" but not many solutions. Honestly one of the "solutions" offered was more 'responsible' have guns to protect themselves and others, and I find that idiotic and based in zero real analysis or understanding of fact. So no, I'm not particularly inclined to listen to it. (Obviously none of you are obligated to explain this to me or engage, this is just my take on things). 
  • kimmiinthemittenkimmiinthemitten Detroit, MI member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary 5 Answers
    edited June 2016

    Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 


    One of the first things you said to me in this discussion is "we will obviously never agree on any of this" and you dismissed my opinion the second I said I was a gun owner. But had you stopped to listen to me, or to any of the other people here, you would have seen that most of us actually do agree with much of your proposal. I know we're small snippet here, but literally no one has said "fuck gun control and everyone should be able to have any gun they want and I love mass shootings". The comments from gun owners here have been exactly the opposite of that, but we've been lumped into your "fuck gun owners" category.

    YOU are the only one being obtuse and unwilling to even listen to the other side. How is that better than the pro-gun people you despise?


    Genuinely confused here. Am I missing proposals gun owners are making on here about how to reduce gun violence? Beyond deal with society to reduce hate? What I'm seeing is a lot of "no that idea won't work" and "I love my guns because reasons" but not many solutions. Honestly one of the "solutions" offered was more 'responsible' have guns to protect themselves and others, and I find that idiotic and based in zero real analysis or understanding of fact. So no, I'm not particularly inclined to listen to it. (Obviously none of you are obligated to explain this to me or engage, this is just my take on things). 
    I'm not going to scroll through all of this and keep score, but I do know that many of the gun rights advocates have agreed with many of the ideas put forth by the gun control advocates.  Does it matter who said it first as long as we can all agree on some common ground?

    Gun owners here in the last two days have agreed to expanding background checks, finding ways to regulate weapons, overruling the Dickey Amendment and even that large capacity magazines probably aren't necessary.  

    Edited because typing and English are not my friends today!  Sorry for being sloppy.
    image
    scrunchythief
  • DrillSergeantCatDrillSergeantCat Oklahoma City, OK member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer
    edited June 2016
    monkeysip said:
    I was talking to H about this, and he also said it's relatively easy to modify some rifles into automatic.  To his knowledge, you can't do that, or at least not easily do that with a handgun.

    What I don't know though is how many rifles modified into automatic have been involved in mass shootings.
    Did a bit of research on this and you can technically turn any semi-automatic gun into an automatic. However, it's incredibly difficult to shoot a fully automatic gun with any accuracy and often the gun is rendered useless after the initial firing.

    Every gun has recoil, in a normally firing semi-automatic, you squeeze the trigger and one round is shot, you must release the trigger to a certain point to be able to shoot again. During this time, you are able to reset your body to re-aim. Shooting a fully automatic doesn't allow that time to reset and the shooter ends up (usually) shooting straight up. For this reason, it's not a very effective weapon to use for any reason other than as suppression where you don't need accuracy and those are usually bolted to something heavy.

    The kits you can purchase don't actually turn your semi into a fully automatic gun. They use the recoil of the weapon against your shoulder to fire the next round. These are called bump fires. They still have the same issue of inaccuracy.

    The law actually states that no firearm produced after 1987 can be easily converted into fully automatic. So if the myth that a gun is easily converted is true, then the ATF would consider it fully automatic anyway and you'd have to have a Class III license to obtain it. 

    etf - spelling
  • Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 
    I understand. You'd rather be self-righteous and indignant than an actual force for change.
    For the purposes of wedding chat board conversation? Yes. But please don't assume my involvement in this issue is limited to this discussion. I don't assume yours is. Righteous indignation can be a powerful force for change. It's amazing how quickly society can change with a strong message of "I think you and what you are doing is reprehensible and has no place in our society."
    I am all for righteous anger - but you have to harness it into something legitimately useful, like a workable proposal for gun reform, without belittling the opposing opinion or not bothering to fully understand it.

    In Catholicism, anyway, anger at an action always needs to be moderated by a respect and love for the human who's acting. As these boards show, sometimes the blunt approach makes people realize just how wrong they are. But unless you can then back it up with a response to follow-up questions like, "Okay, why is this wrong?" in a calmer manner, shit is unlikely to change. Why is the "wedding chat board" an inappropriate place to make a real argument? 

    I will add that to my list of reasons why I'd be a terrible Catholic :)
    ShesSoColdkimmiinthemitten
  • ShesSoColdShesSoCold bend over and I'll show ya mod
    Moderator 5000 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its

    Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 


    One of the first things you said to me in this discussion is "we will obviously never agree on any of this" and you dismissed my opinion the second I said I was a gun owner. But had you stopped to listen to me, or to any of the other people here, you would have seen that most of us actually do agree with much of your proposal. I know we're small snippet here, but literally no one has said "fuck gun control and everyone should be able to have any gun they want and I love mass shootings". The comments from gun owners here have been exactly the opposite of that, but we've been lumped into your "fuck gun owners" category.

    YOU are the only one being obtuse and unwilling to even listen to the other side. How is that better than the pro-gun people you despise?


    Genuinely confused here. Am I missing proposals gun owners are making on here about how to reduce gun violence? Beyond deal with society to reduce hate? What I'm seeing is a lot of "no that idea won't work" and "I love my guns because reasons" but not many solutions. Honestly one of the "solutions" offered was more 'responsible' have guns to protect themselves and others, and I find that idiotic and based in zero real analysis or understanding of fact. So no, I'm not particularly inclined to listen to it. (Obviously none of you are obligated to explain this to me or engage, this is just my take on things). 


    No, you're right. I don't have solutions. I don't know how to fix it. But several of us gun owners did say we agreed with background checks, wait periods, etc. and I am anxious to see what changes are made going forward.

    I know the handful of us here are not going to fix the world's problems, but we can discuss it, educate each other and perhaps form more educated opinions. But assuming everyone with a rifle is a Trump supporter with a confederate flag on the back of their pickup isn't helping even the casual wedding message board discussion.

    I want to add that I hope you are reading this with my intended tone of respectful discussion. I like you, I like your bluntness, I like your lack of sugar-coating and usually your "my way or the highway" attitude.

    Image result for someecard betting someone half your shit youll love them forever
    scrunchythiefkimmiinthemittenSP29

  • Okay, I couldn't get through quite all of that. But really, I think a lot of it comes down to ignorance.

    DH, a hunter, thinks the best strategy is to regulate magazine size and the size magazine that guns can accept - because yes, a lot of the difference between a "hunting" rifle and what people consider to be an "assault" rifle is the number of bullets it can shoot without needing to reload... a rifle is a rifle is a rifle. He's deeply concerned about the gun violence in the country, and if we somehow needed to take the step where the general public couldn't buy or use hunting rifles any more in order to prevent people from turning them into illegal killing machines, he might support it. However, he wants people to recognize that that would require a massive overhaul of the culture on which this country was founded (including distrust of the government having your best interests at heart), not to mention major overhauls of the conservation strategies of big game in each state (and who does get the hunting rifles to take care of this? How do you decide?). It'll be hard work to have meaningful, useful gun reform, and will take thought and sustained effort, and my hunting, gun owning husband is not against it.

    Then people like Starmoon come in and say "I don't know anything about guns or how they're used lawfully, but I'm not using those rights and I don't think you should either, and if you disagree then fuck you"... why should he listen to that perspective?

    etf words

    Ummm yes to the second half of your paraphrase, but no, at no time did I mean to say I don't know anything about guns or how they are used lawfully. 

    I've largely backed out of this discussion because y'all are right, there's really no point. But while I do approach this issue from a stand point of rage and hating all guns, that's a position I developed out of knowledge not ignorance. I've just looked at the same facts and come to a very different conclusion. 


    One of the first things you said to me in this discussion is "we will obviously never agree on any of this" and you dismissed my opinion the second I said I was a gun owner. But had you stopped to listen to me, or to any of the other people here, you would have seen that most of us actually do agree with much of your proposal. I know we're small snippet here, but literally no one has said "fuck gun control and everyone should be able to have any gun they want and I love mass shootings". The comments from gun owners here have been exactly the opposite of that, but we've been lumped into your "fuck gun owners" category.

    YOU are the only one being obtuse and unwilling to even listen to the other side. How is that better than the pro-gun people you despise?


    Genuinely confused here. Am I missing proposals gun owners are making on here about how to reduce gun violence? Beyond deal with society to reduce hate? What I'm seeing is a lot of "no that idea won't work" and "I love my guns because reasons" but not many solutions. Honestly one of the "solutions" offered was more 'responsible' have guns to protect themselves and others, and I find that idiotic and based in zero real analysis or understanding of fact. So no, I'm not particularly inclined to listen to it. (Obviously none of you are obligated to explain this to me or engage, this is just my take on things). 


    No, you're right. I don't have solutions. I don't know how to fix it. But several of us gun owners did say we agreed with background checks, wait periods, etc. and I am anxious to see what changes are made going forward.

    I know the handful of us here are not going to fix the world's problems, but we can discuss it, educate each other and perhaps form more educated opinions. But assuming everyone with a rifle is a Trump supporter with a confederate flag on the back of their pickup isn't helping even the casual wedding message board discussion.

    I want to add that I hope you are reading this with my intended tone of respectful discussion. I like you, I like your bluntness, I like your lack of sugar-coating and usually your "my way or the highway" attitude.

    Oh completely! I'm finding it interesting, and obvi am not opposed to bluntness or people getting riled up about things important to them. Whether those things are weapons or something truly horrific like a cash bar. 
    ShesSoColdkimmiinthemittenSP29
  • MCmeowMCmeow member
    500 Love Its 100 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    For those who like political comedy (Jimmy Dore is great), this relates pretty well to the problem here:


    Wedding Countdown Ticker
  • drunkenwitchdrunkenwitch member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Fourth Anniversary First Answer
    edited June 2016
    I know this is a few days old, and at first I thought I should stay out if this because of my very strong feelings.  I really want to say this. I know many responsible gun owners. This is not a no one should own guns ever post. 

    That said, I hate guns. HATE them.

    My mother's second husband (not my dad, her second husband) was a legal gun owner and wife beater. He would leave his guns lying around the house, loaded and with the safety off. I am lucky she still in my life. I am lucky he never turned on me. I remember the fear when I saw those legal guns. 

    No guns are allowed in my house (of course I would never tell a cop to remove their gun, that's different). But a civilian's right to carry a firearm stops at my front door. I will always be terrified of guns, and people with guns. Always. 

    kimmiinthemittenscrunchythiefSP29
  • ernursej said:
    I'm a Canadian so my world is very different. We still have violence and have had horrible mass shootings, but at a rate far less than the US.

    I was held at gun point when I worked a liquor store. It was one of the worst days of my life. I could have been killed. I've very grateful that I followed protocol and that I wasn't shot. I'm not sure what would have happened if another shopper had pulled a gun on the robber. Would someone have been hurt? Would we have managed to deal with that robber and hold him until the police got there? I will never know, but that there is potential for more harm to come by adding in additional weapons makes me glad that another weapon wasn't produced. 

    I have since gone to gun ranges and learned about gun safety and how to shoot but that does not make me want to have more guns in my world. I don't think there is a place for civilians to own guns.

    I respect that my opinion is in the minority and really doesn't matter as I'm Canadian. I respect that there are lots of safe gun owners but I just don't understand the US. 


    I don't get either, and I live here.

    scrunchythiefSP29
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