Fork in the unwanted pregnancy road

Heffalump

Can I just say how much I hate-hate-hate the missing Edit button?  I used IMO twice above, and it's driving me nuts.  Argh.

monkeysip

ernursej said:

I feel very lucky that I live in Canada where I have great access to abortion care, pregnancy care, full year (somewhat paid) maternity leave benefits and somewhat affordable daycare. It means that I would get to make a decision knowing that there is support for all my options.

America is absolutely pathetic in this regard.  It sucks

TrixieJess

VarunaTT said:

The birth control pill has been around for more than half a century.  We totally and completely know it's (low) risks, short and long term, and how to mitigate them.  All you have to do is read the ginourmous pamphlet that comes with them.  Even IUDs are considered safe and effective at this point in time (again, wit nearly 50 years between their failures and now), with known risks.  It is a MYTH shoved out by pro-life agendas that we don't know the risks of birth control.  

These kinds of statements make me irate, b/c it's a common tactic of fear propaganda about birth control, GMOs, and other "science" stuff that people can't be bothered to educate themselves on.

Yep, I was on birth control pills for 20 years without so much as a pregnancy scare. The problem came when another medication I was on went up in dosage and I wasn't told that it could possibly negate the effects of the birth control pill and that I should have been using other birth control. 

ShesSoCold

Can I just say how gross the "she should have known there was a chance she'd get pregnant if she was having sex so deal with it" argument is?

That's like saying, "Oh, he got hit by a car and is paralyzed? Welp, he shoulda known he was taking that chance when he left his house. He made his bed now he must lie in it".

UGH.

MesmrEwe

Heffalump said:

Can I just say how much I hate-hate-hate the missing Edit button?  I used IMO twice above, and it's driving me nuts.  Argh.

Ditto!!  I miss that feature overall when it comes to TK!! 

MesmrEwe

Has she even considered adoption would be the follow-up question...  The LW IMO is thinking black & white with PG hormones, not that there are a million other shades of grey and options to consider as well with her SO.. 

glasgowtolondon

charlotte989875 said:

Ok not to get too fired up here but I hate when people point out "Well no birth control is 100% effective" and "The only way to really do everything to prevent pregnancy is abstinence". So if you don't want a child you're supposed to what, not have sex with your husband in the event you are in the 0.01% of the time when BC fails (depending on your method)? I feel like this is still super judgy of women. To me it's like saying "Well you really should have known better than to have sex if you absolutely don't want a child know". 

Also, I give props (do people even still say that?) to @AtomicBlonde for your follow up posts. That's hard to do. 

This sums up exactly how I feel on this. Marriage doesn't automatically mean you are ready or even want kids at all, nor should a woman be forced to carry a child to term as some kind of punishment for daring to have the sex for fun rather than to procreate. Fuck that noise. 

I have had an abortion and I have never regretted it. It was not an easy experience to go through, but it was not a hard decision for me to make either.

DrillSergeantCat

As you all know, I found out last week that I'm pregnant with my third and I have a 5 month old too. When that test turned positive, my stomach fell to the floor. I'm still not excited about it. In fact, I'm still worried about the logistics of having two babies, but I could never abort. I've always thought of myself as pro-choice, but this letter has me questioning how far I think that choice should go. I don't know why, either. I guess it just seems selfish to me that she is putting travel above her child's life. Please don't light into me. I've read all the other posts here and you all have valid points, I'm just thinking out loud so to speak.

glasgowtolondon

DrillSergeantCat said:

As you all know, I found out last week that I'm pregnant with my third and I have a 5 month old too. When that test turned positive, my stomach fell to the floor. I'm still not excited about it. In fact, I'm still worried about the logistics of having two babies, but I could never abort. I've always thought of myself as pro-choice, but this letter has me questioning how far I think that choice should go. I don't know why, either. I guess it just seems selfish to me that she is putting travel above her child's life. Please don't light into me. I've read all the other posts here and you all have valid points, I'm just thinking out loud so to speak.

Choice is choice is choice. No one else should have a say in whether someone elses motives are 'worthy'. 

DrillSergeantCat

glasgowtolondon said:

Choice is choice is choice. No one else should have a say in whether someone elses motives are 'worthy'. 

I'm not having a say whether her motives are worthy. I don't get a say in what anyone does with their body. I get to have an opinion, though, just as you do.

glasgowtolondon

DrillSergeantCat said:

glasgowtolondon said:

Choice is choice is choice. No one else should have a say in whether someone elses motives are 'worthy'. 

I'm not having a say whether her motives are worthy. I don't get a say in what anyone does with their body. I get to have an opinion, though, just as you do.

Of course you do. I didn't say you shouldn't? I was just voicing my opinion back. I think you might be reading more than is there.

DrillSergeantCat

glasgowtolondon said:

Of course you do. I didn't say you shouldn't? I was just voicing my opinion back. I think you might be reading more than is there.

Quite possibly! I tend to take things very personally.

charlotte989875

DrillSergeantCat said:

glasgowtolondon said:

Choice is choice is choice. No one else should have a say in whether someone elses motives are 'worthy'. 

I'm not having a say whether her motives are worthy. I don't get a say in what anyone does with their body. I get to have an opinion, though, just as you do.

Ok, but you did say you're "pro-choice but this letter has me questioning how far I think that choice should go". That implies limits on the choice of whether or not terminate a pregnancy. My concern is that it is a dangerous slope; so if LW shouldn't be allowed to abort (bc she's married, healthy, young, an adult, she wants kinds someday but not now, whatever it is that is making you uncomfortable here), where does it end? What scenarios are acceptable and what aren't? I don't mean this aggressively, I really just have a hard time understanding why an abortion is ok in some cases but not in others. 

I also feel like I have to point out she's not deciding between travel and her child's life; she's deciding between a life she and her husband envisioned for themselves and one they didn't. Also, that makes it sound like she's deciding between flying off to Europe or taking the life of a living, breathing child. That's not what this is. 

kimmiinthemitten

DrillSergeantCat said:

glasgowtolondon said:

Choice is choice is choice. No one else should have a say in whether someone elses motives are 'worthy'. 

I'm not having a say whether her motives are worthy. I don't get a say in what anyone does with their body. I get to have an opinion, though, just as you do.

Can you at least see how your situations are similar though?  Both of you could be judged for not exercising more restraint and preventing unplanned pregnancies.  The only difference is you believe you are able and ready to take on [an additional] child and she does not.  

Or let's throw out a scenario like my mom, who was not prepared for a pregnancy and went through with it anyway because she was married.  Is she a better person or did she make a better choice because she chose to be a shitty mom over an abortion?  Or is the better person the person who knows they cannot be a parent at that time and makes a medically legal choice to terminate?

That's why choice is choice is choice is choice.  

ernursej

charlotte989875 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

glasgowtolondon said:

Choice is choice is choice. No one else should have a say in whether someone elses motives are 'worthy'. 

I'm not having a say whether her motives are worthy. I don't get a say in what anyone does with their body. I get to have an opinion, though, just as you do.

Ok, but you did say you're "pro-choice but this letter has me questioning how far I think that choice should go". That implies limits on the choice of whether or not terminate a pregnancy. My concern is that it is a dangerous slope; so if LW shouldn't be allowed to abort (bc she's married, healthy, young, an adult, she wants kinds someday but not now, whatever it is that is making you uncomfortable here), where does it end? What scenarios are acceptable and what aren't? I don't mean this aggressively, I really just have a hard time understanding why an abortion is ok in some cases but not in others. 

I also feel like I have to point out she's not deciding between travel and her child's life; she's deciding between a life she and her husband envisioned for themselves and one they didn't. Also, that makes it sound like she's deciding between flying off to Europe or taking the life of a living, breathing child. That's not what this is. 

This!

My life that I've created with my FI would change quite a bit if a kid entered. We leave at the drop of a hat to travel which would change (not that we wouldn't travel but how and when might have to), give to a variety of charities (money that might be spent differently), look after nieces and nephews (which may not happen if we were dealing with children on our own), live in 500 square ft (which might be possible with a kid, but I could see being tight), drive cars that don't have room for infant seats (requiring purchasing new vehicles and selling the old ones), both working full time (would one of us choose to stay at home and raise a kid and then create a new budget for one income) ...

DrillSergeantCat

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

glasgowtolondon

DrillSergeantCat said:

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

The list of things we do for selfish reasons also goes on. Your situation is great for you, it may not be what you envisaged at a young age but it obviously works for you, or you have made it work. I don't agree with the sentiment of this being okay only in situations where you (general) find the woman in question to have completely unselfish motives. For example, you don't know any of the details surrounding my own choice to go through with an abortion. I may have had unimpeachable reasons, or I may have had 'selfish' reasons. I don't see why someone 'deserves' the option of making this choice more or less than others based on a moral code.

Eta spelling

ShesSoCold

DrillSergeantCat said:

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

Putting yourself and your wants/needs first =/= selfish

DrillSergeantCat

@glasgowtolondon I'm not explaining myself very well. When I said "most are done for selfish reasons" that was my way of telling myself that since I don't have a problem with other reasons, I shouldn't have a problem with LW's. If LW was a close friend and came to me with this issue, I'd tell her I'd help her with whatever she needed, but that I couldn't give her advice. 

DrillSergeantCat

kimmiinthemitten said:

Can you at least see how your situations are similar though?  Both of you could be judged for not exercising more restraint and preventing unplanned pregnancies.  The only difference is you believe you are able and ready to take on [an additional] child and she does not.  

Or let's throw out a scenario like my mom, who was not prepared for a pregnancy and went through with it anyway because she was married.  Is she a better person or did she make a better choice because she chose to be a shitty mom over an abortion?  Or is the better person the person who knows they cannot be a parent at that time and makes a medically legal choice to terminate?

That's why choice is choice is choice is choice.  

This wasn't completely unplanned. I don't necessarily believe that I'm ready and able to take on another child which is why I'm a bit freaked about it. 

Just because I have thoughts that I'd keep to myself in person, doesn't mean I wish to impose those thoughts on anyone else. 

thisismynickname2

What I find kind of interesting is the LW chose to write to Prudie. I think there is different advice that we'd give as advice columnists / anonymous internet people, and advice we'd give as a person's friend. 
I have a close friend who told me she'd just had an abortion, and of course I listened and offered my support, and given her situation I think she made the right choice. 
If LW was my best friend, however, I'd probably give her different advice- I'd advise her to keep it. We know very little about LW, but she's married, and didn't envision herself having kids for a few more years. She didn't say anything in the letter that leads me to believe their current environment is detrimental to having kids. They want them, just not right now (and 5 years is not that far away!). And I've had three close friends with surprise babies that didn't have the best financial or relationship situations, and had their babies and are doing fine raising the children and adore their children. Everyone says you're never truly ready to have kids. If LW wants them in the future, well, the future is now, in my humble opinion. 
But again, difference between what I'd say to a friend ("you can do this, hang in there, I'll support you") and what I'd say to a stranger ("the choice is yours and your husband's alone and no one can fault you"). 

kimmiinthemitten

thisismynickname said:

What I find kind of interesting is the LW chose to write to Prudie. I think there is different advice that we'd give as advice columnists / anonymous internet people, and advice we'd give as a person's friend. 
I have a close friend who told me she'd just had an abortion, and of course I listened and offered my support, and given her situation I think she made the right choice. 
If LW was my best friend, however, I'd probably give her different advice- I'd advise her to keep it. We know very little about LW, but she's married, and didn't envision herself having kids for a few more years. She didn't say anything in the letter that leads me to believe their current environment is detrimental to having kids. They want them, just not right now (and 5 years is not that far away!). And I've had three close friends with surprise babies that didn't have the best financial or relationship situations, and had their babies and are doing fine raising the children and adore their children. Everyone says you're never truly ready to have kids. If LW wants them in the future, well, the future is now, in my humble opinion. 
But again, difference between what I'd say to a friend ("you can do this, hang in there, I'll support you") and what I'd say to a stranger ("the choice is yours and your husband's alone and no one can fault you"). 

Maybe and maybe not.  Granted I was in this situation when my teenage brother and his girlfriend became pregnant and my advice was "You don't have an opinion unless it's her opinion.  She's the one who has to carry the baby and you're the one who can just walk away so you choose what she chooses and you support her either way."

I think if my best friend came to me tomorrow, I'd feel the same way.  I don't have an opinion until she has one, and I support her choice either way.

*Barbie*

In my current situation (stable job, good marriage, early 30s), I don't think I'd abort unless there was a health concern (DK would love to have another one) - but - based on my only pregnancy and all of the complications, if I was in a different situation I might choose to abort rather than go through with an unwanted pregnancy and give the baby up for adoption. That said, I have an IUD, and we use additional protection, so while possible, extremely unlikely - when it's off the table completely, we'll get tubes tied/vasectomy. 

I understand where the LW is coming from with being young and wanting to be established/stable before having kids - DK and I got married at 23, and we planned to wait for 3-5 years.

I think that Prudie gave her good advice. I would say that you're never going to be fully ready to be a parent, but I think that giving yourself time to try and prepare, gain some stability and life experience, and continue to build her relationship with her H may make her path easier. 

I'm pro choice - it should be up to the woman/her partner to decide, and ultimately she should have the final say as it's her body. I wish we had better resources in the US for sex education/family planning/new parents.  

kerbohl

ShesSoCold said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

Putting yourself and your wants/needs first =/= selfish

SITB Except sometimes putting yourself and your wants/needs first IS selfish  ... I think you mean that in this particular case, it is not selfish.
The problem, here, however, is that this is the perfect storm for regretting an abortion in the future.  Society has been looking at abortion like it's a great thing (keep in mind I'm Canadian, so that's more the opinion here), but there are still huge repercussions, even when it is the best solution.  In this case, it's an acceptable solution to LW at the very most - she seems to be very upset at the timing of it, but not at the idea of having the child.  She needs to think about the psychological and emotion repercussions of an abortion.  It is never just a physical thing.  

TrixieJess

kerbohl said:

ShesSoCold said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

Putting yourself and your wants/needs first =/= selfish

SITB Except sometimes putting yourself and your wants/needs first IS selfish  ... I think you mean that in this particular case, it is not selfish.
The problem, here, however, is that this is the perfect storm for regretting an abortion in the future.  Society has been looking at abortion like it's a great thing (keep in mind I'm Canadian, so that's more the opinion here), but there are still huge repercussions, even when it is the best solution.  In this case, it's an acceptable solution to LW at the very most - she seems to be very upset at the timing of it, but not at the idea of having the child.  She needs to think about the psychological and emotion repercussions of an abortion.  It is never just a physical thing.  

If you are Canadian then you know that abortion wasn't legal for all women here until 1988. Before that they had to have their husband's consent or barring that 2 doctors signing off on it.

There are parts of THIS country (Canada)that don't have adequate access to abortion or proper maternal health care especially in the North or on Reserves. Oftentimes, these women don't even have a choice so get off your sanctimonious high horse. The LW has a right to choose, a hard fought for right.

ETF: Angry typing on a phone

VarunaTT

That's not what LW wants though.  I think she wants the abortion (in my reading)...she just feels guilty b/c, well I'm just going to encompass it all by saying "Patriarchy".

I wouldn't ever advise a friend in this situation either way, TBH.  If there's one thing I've learned in my age, in a situation like this, most friends don't want another opinion, they want validation of their fear and support through their decision.  And I believe that's absolutely my job in situation like this.

kimmiinthemitten

kerbohl said:

SITB Except sometimes putting yourself and your wants/needs first IS selfish  ... I think you mean that in this particular case, it is not selfish.

The problem, here, however, is that this is the perfect storm for regretting an abortion in the future.  Society has been looking at abortion like it's a great thing (keep in mind I'm Canadian, so that's more the opinion here), but there are still huge repercussions, even when it is the best solution.  In this case, it's an acceptable solution to LW at the very most - she seems to be very upset at the timing of it, but not at the idea of having the child.  She needs to think about the psychological and emotion repercussions of an abortion.  It is never just a physical thing.  

I must have missed the pro-abortion pep rally.  Were they giving them out for free?  Maybe a BOGO offer?  Was there an award for most abortions ever, or better yet a tiara and a sash?

ShesSoCold

kerbohl said:

ShesSoCold said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

@charlotte989875 I would never want the government to have a say in who has access to abortion. It's just my personal thoughts are that this instance seems selfish. TO ME. If I really think about it, though, most abortions are done for selfish reasons, so this one isn't any different. 

As for the life she envisioned...eh. Hardly, no one ever really lives the life they envisioned for themselves. I never pictured I'd be 39 before I finished school. I never pictured that I'd have 3 kids. I never pictured that I'd be married more than once. I never pictured I'd live in a crappy neighborhood, but still be proud of my home. The list goes on, you know. 

Putting yourself and your wants/needs first =/= selfish

SITB Except sometimes putting yourself and your wants/needs first IS selfish  ... I think you mean that in this particular case, it is not selfish.
The problem, here, however, is that this is the perfect storm for regretting an abortion in the future.  Society has been looking at abortion like it's a great thing (keep in mind I'm Canadian, so that's more the opinion here), but there are still huge repercussions, even when it is the best solution.  In this case, it's an acceptable solution to LW at the very most - she seems to be very upset at the timing of it, but not at the idea of having the child.  She needs to think about the psychological and emotion repercussions of an abortion.  It is never just a physical thing.  

My point was that putting yourself first isn't always, 100% of the time for sure selfish. That the two aren't always one in the same.

The word "selfish" typically has a negative tone, which is why I commented. No matter what LW chooses here, she isn't selfish. She's doing what she believes is best for her. And that's never selfish. IDGAF if her reasoning for not wanting a baby now is that she doesn't want to have a hard time painting her toenails while 8+ months pregnant. That's her decision.

I just hate how women have to have a reason that others deem acceptable for something like this. Why isn't "I don't think I'm ready" good enough for other people?

mrsconn23

kimmiinthemitten said:

kerbohl said:

SITB Except sometimes putting yourself and your wants/needs first IS selfish  ... I think you mean that in this particular case, it is not selfish.

The problem, here, however, is that this is the perfect storm for regretting an abortion in the future.  Society has been looking at abortion like it's a great thing (keep in mind I'm Canadian, so that's more the opinion here), but there are still huge repercussions, even when it is the best solution.  In this case, it's an acceptable solution to LW at the very most - she seems to be very upset at the timing of it, but not at the idea of having the child.  She needs to think about the psychological and emotion repercussions of an abortion.  It is never just a physical thing.  

I must have missed the pro-abortion pep rally.  Were they giving them out for free?  Maybe a BOGO offer?  Was there an award for most abortions ever, or better yet a tiara and a sash?

LOL!  I think she's talking about Canada viewing it as more socially acceptable. 

Also, I read about a study not too long about how women who've had abortions don't feel shame or regret at the rates that pro-birthers (because they *are* not pro-life since there's not a single one I've met/read about who has any interest in helping the mother with the baby they want to force her to have..and you know, a lot of them are pro-death penalty) would have you believe.  And a lot of women felt a societal pressure to  feel those feelings and/or somehow mourn the decision to end their pregnancy.   I'll have to see if I can find it. 

DrillSergeantCat

@ShesSoCold you're right. When I think of the word selfish, I don't necessarily think of it as a strict negative. When I say selfish, I mean putting myself first. When I hide the pop-tarts because I want the last one, to me, that's selfish. I maybe need to find a better word.

@mrs.conn23 I've seen that study, too. It's an incredibly low percentage that feel any regret about their decision. Your point about pro-birthers is the reason I am pro-choice. These people who want to force a woman to birth a baby are the same ones bitching about having to pay $6 in taxes a year (on average) for welfare benefits for that same person. 

The US is abysmal, especially in the bible belt where I am, about sex education. They only want to teach abstinence and that has literally never worked. Want to give teens easier access to BC? Oh hell no! That promotes promiscuity. If that little slut doesn't want a baby she should keep her legs closed. <--I've actually seen this said. Gross, right? Everyone wants lower abortion rates where I am, but they're not willing to do a damn thing to help get them.