Kicking off the week 3 thread

levioosa

mrsconn23 said:

And then there's this Russian insanity.  

http://jezebel.com/dirtbag-russian-columnist-thinks-women-should-be-happy-1792178197

I saw that yesterday and another sliver of my soul died.  

I did a research project on poverty and barriers to healthcare. Even though it was my area of research and none of it was new information, I still couldn't believe what we define as the poverty threshold.  Like, fuck off, I can barely live on $20K a year.  I'd need like 3-4 roommates in my area to make it close to viable.  You expect a family of four to survive?  I'd love for politicians to have to go a year living at the poverty threshold.  Then they could make decisions about welfare and aid.  They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.  They'd be like Gwenyth Paltrow, spending $1 of her experimental $20 weekly grocery budget on a fucking lime.  

GBCK

dAMNITquote box.

Can I speak to school lunch for a sec?
My mom grew up where people from her church dropped boxes of food off on their porch so they didn't starve.  My mom has long-term issues caused by malnutrition, not to mention the psychological scars of years of want (last-year she finally decided 50+ years of not eating cornbread was enough for her to consider it didn't always taste like poverty).

When I was a kid.  we qualified for free lunch.  after ^^^ALLllll that, my parents didn't let us take it.  Because my mom thought that the stigma of having a full belly with free lunch was worse than the problems and bad nutrition and stigma of us having PB&J and a twinke [FTR, twinkes were purchased in bulk from the Hostess store where the dented boxes went, so they were cheaper than fruit.  Fruit in lunch was a shocking treat in our house] with water from the drinking fountain.
THAT is what happens when you attach shame to free lunches.


And...I've done special programs @ the college where we brought in high-school students.
DO you know how much it sucks when you force a kid who is trying desperately to be college prep in spite of where he lives and goes to school to miss free breakfast AND free lunch on a Friday, and find out he won't be fed again until Monday?
The number of times my boss went and got nutri-grain bars and fruit from her own pocket is absurd.
The teachers at the  middle-college H.S. kept bread and peanutbutter in their offices.
Hungry bellies don't learn well.
And the fact that this is a serious problem in this day and age in our country is reprehensible.
ANd this entire thread has me want to cry.
(I am wearing a 'vote' shirt today)

mrsconn23

I shared the lunch article to my FB feed because I couldn't not.   I'm not typically a FB soap boxer because I hate online fighting and my time is better spent taking action then shouting into the online void.  

Kids are my breaking point with shit like that.  I have thankfully never had food insecurity and my kids have never given a second thought to where their next meal is coming from or if there's going to be enough.  I realize how lucky I am, and the older I get, the gravity of that luck/privilege weights on me more and more. 

Also,  I just remembered that we 'donated' a skate-rental this week to a low-income kid for when DefConn's class takes roller skating in gym.  It was $7 per kid...I think I'd even done if it was twice that.  

GBCK

(one more aside...
My grandma, who I know I've described as the person I know who had the best connection w/ kids in the entire world, she understood them better than anyone I've ever known (it was said at her funeral that there was never a child she came in contact with that was to dirty or ill behaved for a hug) taught sunday school for years.
They did the sundayschool collection every week, and not everyone had money to put in.
So grandma was the person who gave each child in her class a penny or a nickle before class, because she understood this.  She admits it did prompt children to bring their own money, but it also made it something all of the kids had 'buy in' into, by giving 'her' money.  
Lets try that before we charge kids a nickle perhaps.)

mrsconn23

mrsconn23 said:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html?

What in the ever loving fuck?! 

“But one of the things I’ve talked to the secretary of agriculture about: Why don’t you have the kids pay a dime, pay a nickel to instill in them that there is, in fact, no such thing as a free lunch? Or maybe sweep the floor of the cafeteria — and yes, I understand that that would be an administrative problem, and I understand that it would probably lose you money. But think what we would gain as a society in getting people — getting the myth out of their head that there is such a thing as a free lunch,” he said.

This makes me physically ill.  You want to turn poor kids into free labor to 'teach them a lesson' regarding something they have NO CONTROL over?!  

AH fuck.  This is old.   From 2013.  Stupid internet. 

charlotte989875

So, beside the psychological effects on children the assumptions about people who need free or reduced cost lunches infuriates me. The assumption that people who are economically disadvantaged don't know what hard work is, or that they don't value working for something is condescending and ignorant. People aren't poor because they don't work hard, or don't try, or don't want to work. Screw that noise. 

Heffalump

levioosa said:

I did a research project on poverty and barriers to healthcare. Even though it was my area of research and none of it was new information, I still couldn't believe what we define as the poverty threshold.  Like, fuck off, I can barely live on $20K a year.  I'd need like 3-4 roommates in my area to make it close to viable.  You expect a family of four to survive?  I'd love for politicians to have to go a year living at the poverty threshold.  Then they could make decisions about welfare and aid.  They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.  They'd be like Gwenyth Paltrow, spending $1 of her experimental $20 weekly grocery budget on a fucking lime.  

charlotte989875 said:

So, beside the psychological effects on children the assumptions about people who need free or reduced cost lunches infuriates me. The assumption that people who are economically disadvantaged don't know what hard work is, or that they don't value working for something is condescending and ignorant. People aren't poor because they don't work hard, or don't try, or don't want to work. Screw that noise. 

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2015/06/are_the_poor_more_rational_spenders_than_the_wealthy.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/22/why-the-poor-do-better-on-these-simple-tests-of-financial-common-sense/?utm_term=.ff51adad5d2e

short+sassy

levioosa said:

mrsconn23 said:

And then there's this Russian insanity.  

http://jezebel.com/dirtbag-russian-columnist-thinks-women-should-be-happy-1792178197

I saw that yesterday and another sliver of my soul died.  

I did a research project on poverty and barriers to healthcare. Even though it was my area of research and none of it was new information, I still couldn't believe what we define as the poverty threshold.  Like, fuck off, I can barely live on $20K a year.  I'd need like 3-4 roommates in my area to make it close to viable.  You expect a family of four to survive?  I'd love for politicians to have to go a year living at the poverty threshold.  Then they could make decisions about welfare and aid.  They wouldn't know what to do with themselves.  They'd be like Gwenyth Paltrow, spending $1 of her experimental $20 weekly grocery budget on a fucking lime.  

I think that is why it is hard for me sometimes.  I would guess that every single person in the Legislative branch is most people's definition of wealthy.  Some of them have probably NEVER known what it is like to want for money.  And the others, it's been a really long time.

I'm certainly not side-eyeing anyone because they were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and/or have been financially successful adults.  But it's a lot different to "imagine" what it's like to not have enough money for food or housing or medicine, than it is to have lived it.

To an extent, I fall in that category also.  Growing up, I was lucky to have had a stable family life.  We were lower-middle to middle class, but there was never food insecurity.  I can never know what that's like for a child.  But I'll do my best to listen and hear those stories.

As a funnier aside, back in the Hillary vs. Obama/McCain vs. (don't remember) days, a reporter was in a Wal-mart parking lot and pulled aside a woman exiting to ask her, "Who do you relate to better, Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin?"  (Because, of course, we need to focus on gender only, but back to the story).  She thought for a moment and said, "Well, they both wear a pair of glasses that cost more than my husband makes in a week.  So, I really don't relate to either one."

That statement rung so true with me that I still remember it all these years later.

levioosa

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

charlotte989875

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

I saved the pet and ran out of money on day 15. 

And donated because I felt terrible. 

mrsconn23

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

I just did that.  Now I have feelings about how I answered and my end result. 

levioosa

mrsconn23 said:

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

I just did that.  Now I have feelings about how I answered and my end result. 

I finished with $262, but rent was due the next day, so I still "lost." It makes me so sad that in America, this is the reality of millions. I remember when I was facing the reality of taking the bus to school/work for awhile in my early 20s when my car died.  The bus system here sucks.  The drive to school took me about 15 minutes by car.  By bus it was three hours. Same thing with work.  What if I had kids? What if I was a single mom without a support system? What if the bus was late? All of the "what if's."  

mrsconn23

levioosa said:

mrsconn23 said:

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

I just did that.  Now I have feelings about how I answered and my end result. 

I finished with $262, but rent was due the next day, so I still "lost." It makes me so sad that in America, this is the reality of millions. I remember when I was facing the reality of taking the bus to school/work for awhile in my early 20s when my car died.  The bus system here sucks.  The drive to school took me about 15 minutes by car.  By bus it was three hours. Same thing with work.  What if I had kids? What if I was a single mom without a support system? What if the bus was late? All of the "what if's."  

I ended up with $250-ish, but I said 'no' a lot.  Which if faced with reality, would I say no?  I haven't a clue. 

NOLABridesmaid

My district will feed students during the summer at our area schools. There is also a program that will fill pack backs with food for the weekend. There are resources out here, but I have seen kids that are straight up hungry. Can you imagine eating rice, beans and soup all of the time? Yep, that's what one kid told me they eat everyday.

I learned many years ago not to assume anything, especially on your own life experiences. Questions like:

What did you have for dinner?

What's your favorite restaurant?

Did you have a nice Thanksgiving dinner?

Heffalump

I ran out of money on day 16.

I really should have left that car I skidded into as a hit and run, but even simulated me couldn't do it.

charlotte989875

Heffalump said:

I ran out of money on day 16.

I really should have left that car I skidded into as a hit and run, but even simulated me couldn't do it.

I left the car, but saved the dog. 

VarunaTT

Until I came to live with my grandparents at 13, I was food insecure.

When ramen noodle soup because some sort of luxury, high end, let'd do fancy shit with it, I nearly threw up.  That and split pea soup were the staples of our house.  I couldn't eat peas in any form until about maybe 3 years ago and they still have to be mixed into something for me to eat them.  Kraft Mac and Cheese with anything added (chicken, tuna, hot dogs), same thing.

I have a really hard time with discipline + money.  I started doing a lot of research on it a few years ago and it became obvious to me through that, that I still manage money like I'm poor. Most of your attitudes about money are made between the ages of 5-10, which is when I was still w/my bio parents.  Which is, "I have it in my hands, spend it on the things I need and then some luxuries, b/c who knows when I'll have it again."  Even though I make plenty for myself now.  It's been a huge struggle and one I'm only starting to make inroads into.

For example, when you guys talked about the tax refunds and why would anyone give the government an interest free loan?  I do it b/c it means I'm saving money that I can't get to.  B/c if I get to it, i'll spend it.  Right now, I'm sending my monthly savings to my mother, who puts it in a savings account for me that only she's on and she has all the info on it (it's now in her will and the estate manager, my aunt, knows about it to deal with it appropriately) so that I can't get to it.  It sounds so stupid (and I feel stupid about it as an educated middle class woman), but I can't handle the responsibility of saving the money and leaving it alone yet.

short+sassy

VarunaTT said:

Until I came to live with my grandparents at 13, I was food insecure.

When ramen noodle soup because some sort of luxury, high end, let'd do fancy shit with it, I nearly threw up.  That and split pea soup were the staples of our house.  I couldn't eat peas in any form until about maybe 3 years ago and they still have to be mixed into something for me to eat them.  Kraft Mac and Cheese with anything added (chicken, tuna, hot dogs), same thing.

I have a really hard time with discipline + money.  I started doing a lot of research on it a few years ago and it became obvious to me through that, that I still manage money like I'm poor. Most of your attitudes about money are made between the ages of 5-10, which is when I was still w/my bio parents.  Which is, "I have it in my hands, spend it on the things I need and then some luxuries, b/c who knows when I'll have it again."  Even though I make plenty for myself now.  It's been a huge struggle and one I'm only starting to make inroads into.

For example, when you guys talked about the tax refunds and why would anyone give the government an interest free loan?  I do it b/c it means I'm saving money that I can't get to.  B/c if I get to it, i'll spend it.  Right now, I'm sending my monthly savings to my mother, who puts it in a savings account for me that only she's on and she has all the info on it (it's now in her will and the estate manager, my aunt, knows about it to deal with it appropriately) so that I can't get to it.  It sounds so stupid (and I feel stupid about it as an educated middle class woman), but I can't handle the responsibility of saving the money and leaving it alone yet.

I read a fascinating article that did an experiment on the psychology of spending vs. saving.  The study followed a group of people for years and tracked their income levels and their spending/saving percentages.  What they found was, people who saved, saved even at their lowest income levels.  While people who spent, spent at around the same percentages...no matter how much their income increased over time.

Personally, I was a strong saver in childhood and even through college.  I went a bit off the rails in my mid 20s to mid 30s.  I wasn't a crazy spender, but I also really didn't save.  That article was actually a catalyst that sparked me to change my ways and at least start paying attention to how I was spending my money.  Turn myself into a saver, whether I was "psychologically" one or not.

I was the one who started the discussion about how big tax returns are just interest free loans to the government.  But my comment was more about people who don't even seem to "get" that this was their money all along.  @VarunaTT, you have made a conscious decision to do a forced savings with your tax returns.  If that's what you need to do at this point to keep it safe from spending, than it sounds like a wise decision for you.  It's a tough psychological hurdle and I hope you can break it someday.  Maybe less taxes taken out to squirrel that extra money away into a retirement vehicle, like a 401K or Roth.

mrsconn23

I enjoyed this:  http://theslot.jezebel.com/what-is-happening-to-sean-spicers-face-1792089035

VarunaTT

I didn't take it personally, short+sassy [the Knut is logging me in and out again, so I can't tag you]  I just thought I should offer it up in the context of this particular line of discussion since it fit.

I really never thought much about how being so damn poor until I was a teenager really affected me until my late 30s.  I suspect it took me that long to get both the self awareness and experience to look at my peers and think....one of these things is not like the other.    It's been eye opening in both good and bad ways.

levioosa

mrsconn23 said:

I enjoyed this:  http://theslot.jezebel.com/what-is-happening-to-sean-spicers-face-1792089035



SITB

On that note, did you see the GQ makeover for Trump?

https://youtu.be/l8ajUDl7JrA

*Barbie*

kimmiinthemitten said:

Until you've walked a day in the shoes of a person who had to choose between food and an electric bill, you have no business judging them.

you mean there's people that don't have an endless supply of money? who would have thought?

SP29

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

My goodness that was intense. I ran out of money Day 16 when it came down to giving up my pet or paying the fee.... And though I shopped well for groceries, I doubt how long they would last.

I still can't get over healthcare in the U.S. And it's more unfathomable that Trump wants to do away with the ACA.

kimmiinthemitten

@varunatt I'm the same way.  I've improved with time, but I don't think I'll ever try*  to even out my tax return.  Nope, I'll take the interest free boost every year!

There's another theory that whatever you lacked the most as a child (relatively speaking not realistically) is what you stock as an adult.  My sister is obsessed with clean sheets and clean towels because we had one pair each that were never washed.  I'm obsessed with food - not just a full fridge, but a full fridge with non-generic food.  

*edited because I worded it poorly

kimmiinthemitten

mrsconn23 said:

I enjoyed this:  http://theslot.jezebel.com/what-is-happening-to-sean-spicers-face-1792089035

I read this entire thing half questioning myself for reading it and half laughing at the author/Spicer!

charlotte989875

SP29 said:

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

My goodness that was intense. I ran out of money Day 16 when it came down to giving up my pet or paying the fee.... And though I shopped well for groceries, I doubt how long they would last.

I still can't get over healthcare in the U.S. And it's more unfathomable that Trump wants to do away with the ACA.

NPR's Fresh Air did a really interesting spot last night where they talked about people in areas that have been most affected by the ACA and have had the biggest increase in coverage, but overwhelmingly voted for Trump (I'll post it later if I can find it). Many people are unhappy about the spike in premiums this year, or they believe he wouldn't repeal it and take away their healthcare (because who takes away health care). Just really interesting to hear why people who benefit from the ACA voted for Trump. 

VarunaTT

charlotte989875 said:

SP29 said:

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

My goodness that was intense. I ran out of money Day 16 when it came down to giving up my pet or paying the fee.... And though I shopped well for groceries, I doubt how long they would last.

I still can't get over healthcare in the U.S. And it's more unfathomable that Trump wants to do away with the ACA.

NPR's Fresh Air did a really interesting spot last night where they talked about people in areas that have been most affected by the ACA and have had the biggest increase in coverage, but overwhelmingly voted for Trump (I'll post it later if I can find it). Many people are unhappy about the spike in premiums this year, or they believe he wouldn't repeal it and take away their healthcare (because who takes away health care). Just really interesting to hear why people who benefit from the ACA voted for Trump. 

The thing that bothers me the most about this attitude is that they really didn't do any research.  Lots of people's premiums didn't go up for the first time ever.  For the first time every, healthcare spending in the country as a whole didn't go up.  Not to mention the preventative care and existing conditions clauses that changed a whole bunch of things for a lot of people.  And I feel like that group also complains about executives making too much...but the ACA forced insurance companies to spend money on their actual products to their customers, not their administration people.

One of the things I'm struggling with is through all my activist training, the main idea is "meet people where they are".  But the difference between my POV and the Trump supporter POV is so incredibly different, it's actually a difference in a philosophy of life, not just a policy.  And I'm not sure if a conversation between those two things are possible.

charlotte989875

VarunaTT said:

charlotte989875 said:

SP29 said:

levioosa said:

I really like this simulation, and I think everyone should have to try it.  It really puts things in perspective.

http://playspent.org/html/

My goodness that was intense. I ran out of money Day 16 when it came down to giving up my pet or paying the fee.... And though I shopped well for groceries, I doubt how long they would last.

I still can't get over healthcare in the U.S. And it's more unfathomable that Trump wants to do away with the ACA.

NPR's Fresh Air did a really interesting spot last night where they talked about people in areas that have been most affected by the ACA and have had the biggest increase in coverage, but overwhelmingly voted for Trump (I'll post it later if I can find it). Many people are unhappy about the spike in premiums this year, or they believe he wouldn't repeal it and take away their healthcare (because who takes away health care). Just really interesting to hear why people who benefit from the ACA voted for Trump. 

The thing that bothers me the most about this attitude is that they really didn't do any research.  Lots of people's premiums didn't go up for the first time ever.  For the first time every, healthcare spending in the country as a whole didn't go up.  Not to mention the preventative care and existing conditions clauses that changed a whole bunch of things for a lot of people.  And I feel like that group also complains about executives making too much...but the ACA forced insurance companies to spend money on their actual products to their customers, not their administration people.

One of the things I'm struggling with is through all my activist training, the main idea is "meet people where they are".  But the difference between my POV and the Trump supporter POV is so incredibly different, it's actually a difference in a philosophy of life, not just a policy.  And I'm not sure if a conversation between those two things are possible.

So, I think there is mixed evidence on whether premiums increased (Forbes did an interesting piece on the methodology of the studies used to determine this), but there is pretty clear evidence that premiums did increase for many people in 2016, particularly in the market places. Most of that is because in 2014 and 2015 insurers underpriced premiums (were significantly under the CBO estimates) mainly because insurance companies had no data about who would be signing up. By 2016 they found that it was generally people that were older, and sicker, than the models showed (although let's be honest, this shouldn't have been that much of a surprise), and so premiums for 2016 were higher because insurers finally had data on who was in the pool, and increased premiums to rates that were closer (sometimes higher than) the CBO estimates. All that to say, premiums were far lower in 2014, 2015 than they should have been and the 2016 increases were adjusting to what the prices "should have been". 

But I totally agree about the "meet people where they are" dilemma. I have it with my students quite often. Yesterday I had a student attempt to argue that Jeff Sessions was a great AG pick. I find no common ground there. 

VarunaTT

That's interesting.  TBH, sitting here thinking about it, I'm working w/old info, b/c I stopped following ACA stuffs after the first year and that's when I remember the premiums not going up.  Also, TBH, when people did complain about premiums, I remember sitting there thinking, "My premiums have always gone up and my raises usually covered the premium increase and left me with about 1% in real increase in money, so.....?"

levioosa

My premium spiked dramatically. I had to drop down two plans. I was paying $220/mo for an amazing plan. It jumped to $450 this year. I couldn't maintain that so I had to drop down. However, am aware of the nuances and the overall success and curbing of insurance premium hikes, so I wasn't too upset. I also don't have frequent hospitalizations though, for which my previous plan would have been ideal. I can definitely see how someone who isn't educated would think "Obama ruined premiums and now I can't afford health insurance." Never mind they couldn't afford it before, damnit, that insurance spike is his fault.