Wedding Woes

Come clean...otherwise what is the point of recovery?

Dear Prudence,

I have recently come to terms with the fact that I cannot drink responsibly and have started attending AA meetings. I’ve taken it upon myself to apologize to everyone I’ve hurt; some have forgiven me, some have not, and I accept that. My problem is this: My mother is my rock and my biggest supporter, but she thinks I stopped drinking three weeks ago. In fact, it’s only been a week. I want to be honest with her but also don’t want to hurt her. It’s important to me, and to her from what I gather, that I celebrate milestones of sobriety—a week, a month, a year—but I know the timeline won’t add up. Should I come clean or just hope she doesn’t notice the discrepancy when I hit the one-month mark?

—Recently Reformed Alcoholic

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Re: Come clean...otherwise what is the point of recovery?

  • This is so easy. Come clean. 
  • Come clean.  Start off this journey with honesty. 

  • Come clean. She won't be happy but she'll be glad the honesty and starting a new part of your life.
  • I don't think it's that big of a deal, but obviously it's causing the LW a lot of stress, so rip the Band-Aid off and move on.
  • Come clean. 
  • Come clean on your own time.  There's a good chance mom is just going along with your lie anyways.
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  • I do think coming clean should be the goal, but with the newness of the sobriety maybe not isn't right? Work with a sponsor to develop goals for disclosing. 
  • VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
  • VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
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  • VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    As the family member of an alcoholic, it would be really great to have my brother apologize for the things he's done that have damaged the family. Like the time he threw a party and he watched his friend beat me up for saying I would drive people home if they were too drunk to drive themselves. Religious based or not, shitty things deserve an apology. I have grace for people who suffer from alcoholism/addiction because I know it's a disease. I know it's based out of depression and hurt and anger. But that doesn't give someone cart blanche to act shitty and never own up to it. Recognizing how damaging a substance has been is a big part of sobriety. 


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  • levioosa said:
    VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    As the family member of an alcoholic, it would be really great to have my brother apologize for the things he's done that have damaged the family. Like the time he threw a party and he watched his friend beat me up for saying I would drive people home if they were too drunk to drive themselves. Religious based or not, shitty things deserve an apology. I have grace for people who suffer from alcoholism/addiction because I know it's a disease. I know it's based out of depression and hurt and anger. But that doesn't give someone cart blanche to act shitty and never own up to it. Recognizing how damaging a substance has been is a big part of sobriety. 
    I totally understand that feeling and one I felt (still feel at times), but one of the things that helped me was that I may never get an apology from my father. Ever. It just probably won't ever happen. So if that's the case I have to find a way to deal with all the shitty things he did when he was drinking. 

    I think apologies, especially from addicts can be controversial, yes it would be great if they could recognize the hurt and damage that is caused to family members by their drinking, but you can't hold up your (general you) own healing waiting for it. 
  • levioosa said:
    VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    As the family member of an alcoholic, it would be really great to have my brother apologize for the things he's done that have damaged the family. Like the time he threw a party and he watched his friend beat me up for saying I would drive people home if they were too drunk to drive themselves. Religious based or not, shitty things deserve an apology. I have grace for people who suffer from alcoholism/addiction because I know it's a disease. I know it's based out of depression and hurt and anger. But that doesn't give someone cart blanche to act shitty and never own up to it. Recognizing how damaging a substance has been is a big part of sobriety. 
    I totally understand that feeling and one I felt (still feel at times), but one of the things that helped me was that I may never get an apology from my father. Ever. It just probably won't ever happen. So if that's the case I have to find a way to deal with all the shitty things he did when he was drinking. 

    I think apologies, especially from addicts can be controversial, yes it would be great if they could recognize the hurt and damage that is caused to family members by their drinking, but you can't hold up your (general you) own healing waiting for it. 
    Oh, I'm not holding up any healing. I know I'll probably never get an apology. It would just be nice if it happened some day. My brother will probably die an addict, and he will probably be young. If he's able to get clean I won't hold an apology over his head either. That would be equally as shitty. 


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  • mrsconn23mrsconn23 member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited August 2017
    VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    Yes to the bolded.  The push for apologizing is rooted in guilt and shame of what you did during your addiction instead of being truly reflective and sorry for your actions.  And even though you were the addict and did hurt people, it doesn't mean that people didn't hurt you in the process as well.  

    It's messy and if you change, but the people around you don't...then how sorry should you be?  That's why addiction is definitely a family disease.

    In a perfect world, everyone gets help and tries to heal together.  But the world is not that, so...yeah. 

    ETA:  But in this situation, since LW *wants* to include mom in her recovery...I think LW should tell her mom the truth of her recovery process. 
  • VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I agree to a degree. It works for some.
    My dad use to have a drinking problem {anxiety got bad, he drank to hide} Rehab didn't work because he was a 'binge drinker'
    He tried apologizing but it never worked. I got he was sorry but I don't think I was ready to forgive him.
    It wasn't until I got older did I end up going to him and telling him how hurt I was when I was younger. I got he was sorry he did it but it didn't change anything. For me, that conversation had to happen - me going to him, instead of him coming to me - in order to move on.
  • mrsconn23 said:
    VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    Yes to the bolded.  The push for apologizing is rooted in guilt and shame of what you did during your addiction instead of being truly reflective and sorry for your actions.  And even though you were the addict and did hurt people, it doesn't mean that people didn't hurt you in the process as well.  

    It's messy and if you change, but the people around you don't...then how sorry should you be?  That's why addiction is definitely a family disease.

    In a perfect world, everyone gets help and tries to heal together.  But the world is not that, so...yeah. 

    ETA:  But in this situation, since LW *wants* to include mom in her recovery...I think LW should tell her mom the truth of her recovery process. 
    I don't disagree that a lot of religion is rooted in making people feel guilty, so maybe that's how this connection is being made?

    However I don't think the push to apologize (ever) has the purpose of making people feel guilty or shame. It's about doing the right thing and making amends with people you've hurt. Whether they also hurt you is irrelevant - saying "well she hurt me too" is reasoning children use when they try to justify not apologizing. AA is about owning your addiction, owning your actions, and empowering change. If you hurt someone, you should say sorry - that's it. 

    Also, this is from AA:

    What Is the Purpose of This Step?

    The purpose of Step 9 of Alcoholics Anonymous is to take action and apologize to those you have harmed with your drinking.

    This step will provide you with peace of mind, relief and liberation from the chains of regret.

    *********************************************************************************

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  •  I'm sorry about your brother,  @levioosa.  That must be hard. 
  • Thanks @holyguacamole79. It's kind of just a fact of life for me. I do feel bad for my parents, because I don't think they'll be able to let go in a healthy way the way I have. 


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  • mrsconn23mrsconn23 member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited August 2017
    mrsconn23 said:
    VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    Yes to the bolded.  The push for apologizing is rooted in guilt and shame of what you did during your addiction instead of being truly reflective and sorry for your actions.  And even though you were the addict and did hurt people, it doesn't mean that people didn't hurt you in the process as well.  

    It's messy and if you change, but the people around you don't...then how sorry should you be?  That's why addiction is definitely a family disease.

    In a perfect world, everyone gets help and tries to heal together.  But the world is not that, so...yeah. 

    ETA:  But in this situation, since LW *wants* to include mom in her recovery...I think LW should tell her mom the truth of her recovery process. 
    I don't disagree that a lot of religion is rooted in making people feel guilty, so maybe that's how this connection is being made?

    However I don't think the push to apologize (ever) has the purpose of making people feel guilty or shame. It's about doing the right thing and making amends with people you've hurt. Whether they also hurt you is irrelevant - saying "well she hurt me too" is reasoning children use when they try to justify not apologizing. AA is about owning your addiction, owning your actions, and empowering change. If you hurt someone, you should say sorry - that's it. 

    Also, this is from AA:

    What Is the Purpose of This Step?

    The purpose of Step 9 of Alcoholics Anonymous is to take action and apologize to those you have harmed with your drinking.

    This step will provide you with peace of mind, relief and liberation from the chains of regret.

    I'm not saying people don't deserve an apology and that holding things against people is the way to go, but IDK...I don't think anyone should be guilted, pressured, or shamed into an apology they're not ready to give because they don't know how or don't want to for...reasons.  There's a lot of pressure to stick the steps and program and not get 'stuck' on a step.  It seems to me like you can't 'skip' step 9 and decide to come back around to it when you're ready. 

    SIL/BFF is in AA.  I think it's done good things for her, but I also think she went through a weird period with the process where I was like, "This isn't you or who you are."  I kept it to myself because I respect that she was working through it, but I'm glad she got past most of that.  

    I'm very much an AA skeptic as far as it working for everyone (and I think it's bullshit that people can be ordered to AA by courts, but it's 'free' rehab so...). 
  • This is so easy. Come clean. 
    I think this is easier said than done.   Yeah, it's the right thing to do, but LW is (rightfully) nervous to do it. 
  • edited August 2017
    mrsconn23 said:
    mrsconn23 said:
    VarunaTT said:
    Vent:  I think the whole apologizing thing is BS anyway and tied to the fact that most programs are religiously based and flaying yourself over past sins is how they get people to stay on board (I'm looking at you, AA).

    If she really feels the need, I'd say she should do it when she's ready.  If that's right now, great.  If it's a year down the road, great.  If it's never, that's okay too.
    I didn't realize how religously based AA is until recently, but I'm curious why you think the apologies are BS?
    Ditto. I also don't understand why "apologizing to those you've hurt" is BS or a problem? Whether religious or not, that seems like just kind of a good human thing to do.
    Yes to the bolded.  The push for apologizing is rooted in guilt and shame of what you did during your addiction instead of being truly reflective and sorry for your actions.  And even though you were the addict and did hurt people, it doesn't mean that people didn't hurt you in the process as well.  

    It's messy and if you change, but the people around you don't...then how sorry should you be?  That's why addiction is definitely a family disease.

    In a perfect world, everyone gets help and tries to heal together.  But the world is not that, so...yeah. 

    ETA:  But in this situation, since LW *wants* to include mom in her recovery...I think LW should tell her mom the truth of her recovery process. 
    I don't disagree that a lot of religion is rooted in making people feel guilty, so maybe that's how this connection is being made?

    However I don't think the push to apologize (ever) has the purpose of making people feel guilty or shame. It's about doing the right thing and making amends with people you've hurt. Whether they also hurt you is irrelevant - saying "well she hurt me too" is reasoning children use when they try to justify not apologizing. AA is about owning your addiction, owning your actions, and empowering change. If you hurt someone, you should say sorry - that's it. 

    Also, this is from AA:

    What Is the Purpose of This Step?

    The purpose of Step 9 of Alcoholics Anonymous is to take action and apologize to those you have harmed with your drinking.

    This step will provide you with peace of mind, relief and liberation from the chains of regret.

    I'm not saying people don't deserve an apology and that holding things against people is the way to go, but IDK...I don't think anyone should be guilted, pressured, or shamed into an apology they're not ready to give because they don't know how or don't want to for...reasons.  There's a lot of pressure to stick the steps and program and not get 'stuck' on a step.  It seems to me like you can't 'skip' step 9 and decide to come back around to it when you're ready. 

    SIL/BFF is in AA.  I think it's done good things for her, but I also think she went through a weird period with the process where I was like, "This isn't you or who you are."  I kept it to myself because I respect that she was working through it, but I'm glad she got past most of that.  

    I'm very much an AA skeptic as far as it working for everyone (and I think it's bullshit that people can be ordered to AA by courts, but it's 'free' rehab so...). 
    In my (limited) knowledge and experience with AA, I don't think you're supposed to feel pressured or shamed into apologizing. You know the steps of the program up front and you either commit to it or you don't.

    Now if certain individuals feel shamed by their specific group or sponsor, who knows? Generally speaking, I'm pretty sure you get support to move from step to step as you feel ready to do so. And of course they're going to try and help you get through the steps and not get stuck - that's literally the point of group support and a sponsor. Some might see that pressure/shaming to complete a step (I guess), some might see it as encouragement to complete the program.

    ETA: obviously this is for voluntary participation - I agree that court ordered participation misses the mark (understatement)
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  • I think it's kind of...odd that LW told mom that s/he was sober 2 weeks before getting sober.  I wish I knew what the root of the lie was - was it because LW was planning to get around to it after one last hoorah?  It's just strange to me that the lie about the sobriety and the actual sobriety come so close in time.

  • @varunatt I've never thought about it in comparison to another disease, so that's an interesting take.  But I still agree with @southernbelle0915 about the pressure and timing, it's not like on the 9th week we apologize.  And it's not like they make a list of all transgressions and must apologize.  You choose what you want to make amends for and act accordingly.

    If that step is a sticking point for someone, I think it goes back to your original point, AA isn't for everyone.

    @Ro041 that part doesn't surprise me at all.  Maybe you are right about the one last shebang.  Maybe they made a big deal about getting sober, only made it one day, and didn't want to admit it.  Maybe they were lying through their teeth to get mom to shut up already.  Who knows.
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  • O.k. from my understanding with working with a mentor on studying addictions now.  The step involved with the whole "forgiveness" aspect people are talking about is pretty specific about this, while AA is not specific religion based, it is about a higher power whether that be God, Universe, Allah, Spaghetti Monster, etc. it's about something greater than the individual to become sober (greatly simplified of course).  The reason many meetings (not just AA, but many of the other "A" groups as well) take place within the confines of a church building is for encouraging the anonymity because of the location being a 'Protected" space legally so what is said during a meeting stays there.

    As for the seeking forgiveness, it's VERY specific to ONLY when this would not affect another person negatively.  

    In relation to the LW - be honest.  The struggle with sobriety is real and there are stumbling points involved for many (NOT ALL!!! - where this idea of failure worked in to the system comes from is part of the problem because it creates an expectation of "when").  Celebrate the one week and branch/build from where one IS, not where they want to be yet.  
  • I think it's interesting, but I don't totally agree with the well it's a disease so you shouldn't have to apologize for things you did perspective. 

    It's like if you cause a fatal drunk driving accident, or beat your spouse while high, or get drunk with your pals and gang rape someone, or drunkenly set your apartment complex on fire, or leave your infant to drown in a bathtub because you passed out shooting up, or any number of things....that, well golly, it's a disease so why should I apologize? Um, because you hurt people. That's why. 

    I agree that addiction should be clinically treated more like a disease, but I don't think creating a societal standard that "well since it's a disease, apologies aren't expected" is acceptable. 
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  • VarunaTT said:
    Because if we're going to treat addiction as a disease, which I think we should, then apologies for a disease isn't part of treatment.  There's no other disease category that we make people apologize for.

    Also, I think it puts undue pressure on both the addict's recovery when apologies are part of a process.  There are way more important things for an addict to do than worry about having to scourge guilt from past sins.  People get to fuck up, and people get to grow, on both sides.  Holding anyone to some standard of having to express remorse can throw a lot of people backwards, whether they're the addict or the receiver.

    Additionally, I think it puts undue pressure on the receiver of the apology.  It's okay to not want to forgive or listen to an apology.  It's also okay to not even want to hear it.  

    I also think people like to pretend it's going to be a magical solution that everything will be all better after those two little words...but it's not, it still takes work, and there's still a journey ahead that will have ups, downs, forwards, and backwards.  

    This is well said and I agree with a lot of it, but I don't think the bolded is quite true.  I think there are a lot of disease categories where the victims are "blamed" if they don't take care of themselves or don't take as much care of themselves as "they should".

    I can give a great example from my own personal life.  I have had Type I Diabetes (Insulin Dependent) for over 20 years.  Every day are constant small battles to...not get my blood sugars too high!  But don't get them too low either!  Overall, I take very good care of my medical condition.  But I'm not perfect.  Sometimes I f**k up.  Sometimes it's a blatant error.  But mostly, it's more like, "Whoops.  I thought I took the appropriate amount of insulin for what I ate, but my sugar dropped and ran too low."

    But, especially if my blood sugar runs low, my H's usual attitude is to be mad at me and give me the third degree about why it went low.  I know it comes from him worrying and caring about me.  I know it comes from him wanting to "fix it".  However, I also wish he would understand that it doesn't matter how perfect I am...unless I want to purposely run it high all the time (which would be insane)...low blood sugars WILL sometimes happen.  They just do.  And he needs to get off my case about it.


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  • VarunaTT said:
    Because if we're going to treat addiction as a disease, which I think we should, then apologies for a disease isn't part of treatment.  There's no other disease category that we make people apologize for.

    Also, I think it puts undue pressure on both the addict's recovery when apologies are part of a process.  There are way more important things for an addict to do than worry about having to scourge guilt from past sins.  People get to fuck up, and people get to grow, on both sides.  Holding anyone to some standard of having to express remorse can throw a lot of people backwards, whether they're the addict or the receiver.

    Additionally, I think it puts undue pressure on the receiver of the apology.  It's okay to not want to forgive or listen to an apology.  It's also okay to not even want to hear it.  

    I also think people like to pretend it's going to be a magical solution that everything will be all better after those two little words...but it's not, it still takes work, and there's still a journey ahead that will have ups, downs, forwards, and backwards.  
    We don't make people apologize but those who suffer from depression and anxiety end up apologizing often.

    Also, I believe sometimes the apology from those with addiction can come from a place of "sorry I didn't realize what I was doing to others" or "sorry I didn't realize it was such an issue that should be helped"
  • General thoughts on what PPs have said.  I do think, disease or not, that people SHOULD apologize when they have hurt someone else.  While a disease might be a mitigating factor, it isn't a carte blanche to steal from or physically/emotionally hurt someone else.  They shouldn't be forced to apologize.  It should hopefully come from their own realization they owe someone an apology.  Though, oftentimes, that means an apology will never come. 

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