Wedding Woes

Nonbinary partner 'name game'

Dear Prudence,

I recently began working at a wonderful disability nonprofit. I have a few co-workers, but we work in separate offices and all leave promptly at 5, so it’s been difficult to get to know them. I suggested a few weeks ago that we do happy hour together one night, and they were excited to join. We were all eating our appetizers and slurping our drinks, and I began talking with one of my co-workers about my partner, who is nonbinary. She asked their name, and I gave it, and used they/them pronouns. She then asked what their “real” name was, and proceeded to say that oh, she loves that name, and so on. It was fairly awkward, but I truly do not believe she understands that this was a faux pas. It seemed like she just thought my partner “preferred” the name like it was a nickname. We live in a rural-ish (about 10,000 people, state university) town, so I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, as she probably has never met a trans or nonbinary person before. How should I bring this up with her? I do think she’s a good person, but perhaps a bit closed off from culture. The holiday party is around the corner, and I want to bring my partner, but I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable by her or others.

—Language Etiquette

Re: Nonbinary partner 'name game'

  • Introduce your partner by their name. If someone says anything, correct them firmly and politely and move on. 

    I wouldn’t bring it up before hand because you don’t know that the co-worker doesn’t understand and hasn’t done anything that warrants a confrontation. 
  • VarunaTT said:
    *blink blink*  You shared a partner's deadname?  

    I would make sure to explain to co-worker that your partner's "real" name IS X and please do not use the deadname.  Explain what deadname is and why it's offensive to use.  

    And, TBH, I think you need to tell your partner what happened, explain your concerns and what you've done to fix this situation, and see what your partner wants to do b/c that's your guiding factor.

    And never talk about the deadname again to anyone, in any manner.  It's not your information to be sharing.

    FYI:  Deadname is the term used to reference the name of a transgender person before they came out as themselves.  Basically and usually, their birth name.  It's a pretty massive faux pas to ask someone their dead name (b/c it's almost always referred to as, "What's your real name" or "what's your birth name?"  It's none of your business, it's potentially greatly painful to the person you're speaking to, and it really denies a person their identity) and many LGBTQ+ organizations fight the media to correctly name transgender people in the news, b/c the media wants to use "legal" names, not the person's actual name (which for many reasons might not be legally changed).
    I totally read this as the LW only shared their partners name (not their dead name). 

    But either way, explain it to the partner and see what they want to do! 
  • mrsconn23mrsconn23 member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2019
    I almost titled this something along the lines of the LW screwing over their partner by sharing their 'old'/deadname (now that I know that term).   But since it's not my community, I wasn't sure. 

    I did think it was wrong of LW to disclose that information to their co-worker.  It's not their business.  Also, it discounts who their partner is and their identity that they've chosen for themselves. It's similar to someone insisting they call you by your married name even when you've chosen to keep your maiden name (not the exact same, I understand...but it is disrespectful and discounts how you choose to identify). It was LW that made the faux pas in the first place, so I find it interesting they're putting the onus on the co-worker being the rude one.  LW should have never entertained the question.  

    I think LW needs to now leave it up to their partner if they're comfortable attending knowing that LW made this massive mistake.  It's honestly a breach of trust. 
  • LW did a dis-service to their partner.  LW should have repeated their partner's name, when asked what their "real" name is, because what their current name is, is the real name.  I also don't know why LW provided all of the information about being non-binary, etc.  LW could have just said, "Yes, I am in a relationship.  My partner's name is X and they do Y for a living."  

    But now, I think LW needs to tell their partner everything that went down at the happy hour and let them decide if they want to attend the holiday party and if LW should say anything else to the co-worker prior to the party.  
  • I also don't know why LW provided all of the information about being non-binary, etc.  LW could have just said, "Yes, I am in a relationship.  My partner's name is X and they do Y for a living."  


    Yes, because then if the co-worker pressed on 'what' LW's partner is...they could have been, "Their name is X. They use they/them pronouns." Because honestly if someone keeps pushing, LW could come back with, "IDK why you want to know what's in my partner's pants."

    But as @VarunaTT said, LW needs to learn more about advocacy/allyship.  LW does not need to worry about their co-worker's comfort, but their partner's.  
  • @VarunaTT I have a question and want to confirm something.   When you're talking about someone who is trans, you always use their chosen name even if you're talking about something in the past that may have occurred prior to coming out, right?  Example: We have friends with a trans son.   For the sake of being random he was born with the birth name Fiona and now goes by Brian.   For now and always he is Brian, right? 

    Example: "Remember when Brian was two and you two came over and we watched "Christmas Vacation" and made cookies and had hot cocoa?"   

    For the LW, I think there's a lot of missteps that abound here.   
  • banana468 said:
    @VarunaTT I have a question and want to confirm something.   When you're talking about someone who is trans, you always use their chosen name even if you're talking about something in the past that may have occurred prior to coming out, right?  Example: We have friends with a trans son.   For the sake of being random he was born with the birth name Fiona and now goes by Brian.   For now and always he is Brian, right? 

    Example: "Remember when Brian was two and you two came over and we watched "Christmas Vacation" and made cookies and had hot cocoa?"   

    For the LW, I think there's a lot of missteps that abound here.   
    Yes.   <3
  • I think the time has passed to bring this up with the coworker, at least for the previous conversation.  But I suppose it also wouldn't hurt for the LW to clarify something like, "I feel like I may have given the wrong impression about my partner's name.  They're name is X.  It's not a nickname.  I should not have shared their deadname, because that isn't their name." Cue a quick explanation on what a deadname is.  And thanks to @VarunaTT, for sharing that word.  I had not heard it before.

    They should also share the story with their partner and that there could be awkward moments at the Holiday Party.  Though I assume the partner lives in the same community and is well aware that many people in this area have never met a trans or nonbinary person.  Which, really, is a bummer that this could potentially even be a thing.  Etiquette and social niceties are certainly not different for different people.

    The etiquette of using the name a person goes by also isn't any different.  Nobody should need to say it would be bizarre and rude AF to address them by a name that is different from their name.  So I'm going to assume and hope that the LW's coworkers understand basic etiquette and, if they do make a another faux pas, then correct them.
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  • I think I'm stuck on why the colleague asked for a different name in the first place.  If I ask what someone's partner's name is and they say "X", I think their name is "X".  What would make them think something else?  I mean, my actual name is a nickname for a different name (Think Meg as the full name instead of Megan), and people rarely ask me what my real name is, they just accept my name.  If someone tells you their name or the name of someone they know, that's their name ... I feel like I'm missing something here?  

  • kerbohl said:
    I think I'm stuck on why the colleague asked for a different name in the first place.  If I ask what someone's partner's name is and they say "X", I think their name is "X".  What would make them think something else?  I mean, my actual name is a nickname for a different name (Think Meg as the full name instead of Megan), and people rarely ask me what my real name is, they just accept my name.  If someone tells you their name or the name of someone they know, that's their name ... I feel like I'm missing something here?  
    Back in the day I had a coworker named Peter Pan. It wasn’t a given name, they were from another country and to avoid the American ineptness in pronouncing non Western names they chose that instead. Admittedly I did ask if that was their real name and I wouldn’t do that now. 


    image
  • kerbohl said:
    I think I'm stuck on why the colleague asked for a different name in the first place.  If I ask what someone's partner's name is and they say "X", I think their name is "X".  What would make them think something else?  I mean, my actual name is a nickname for a different name (Think Meg as the full name instead of Megan), and people rarely ask me what my real name is, they just accept my name.  If someone tells you their name or the name of someone they know, that's their name ... I feel like I'm missing something here?  
    I had re-read it a couple of times and I think that happened is LW either dropped Name + They and co-worker heard the "they" and made an assumption, leading to an ask or LW did the whole, "My partner's name is X", used a "they" later, get's weird look from co-worker, trips into uncomfortable territory for LW, and explains, which gets LW trapped in a mess of their own making.

    Co-worker might've been trying to be a good ally and it might've come from a non-intrusive intent.  That's also why I thought LW just needed some advocacy training to be able to take the lead on a conversation like this.

    I know I've gotten old enough that silence doesn't make me uncomfortable and I'm just as liable to sit there with an implied "What?" hanging and then bean dip rather than have a conversation that 1. I don't want to and 2. Don't think I should have to.  But I've got some more experience and knowledge under my belt than the average person, even LGBTQ+ person, just b/c of what I've done in my life and some of my own identities that have led to people thinking they can ask about my and my partner's genitals thoughout my damn life.

    No wonder I have resting bitch face.  :smiley:
  • levioosa said:
    kerbohl said:
    I think I'm stuck on why the colleague asked for a different name in the first place.  If I ask what someone's partner's name is and they say "X", I think their name is "X".  What would make them think something else?  I mean, my actual name is a nickname for a different name (Think Meg as the full name instead of Megan), and people rarely ask me what my real name is, they just accept my name.  If someone tells you their name or the name of someone they know, that's their name ... I feel like I'm missing something here?  
    Back in the day I had a coworker named Peter Pan. It wasn’t a given name, they were from another country and to avoid the American ineptness in pronouncing non Western names they chose that instead. Admittedly I did ask if that was their real name and I wouldn’t do that now. 
    I work with a lot of people from Indonesia.  Not in person.  But in e-mail.  Understandably, they're not always familiar with Western first names and the typical "gender" it is usually used for.  And vice versa.  Overall, not a big deal.  But it can leave you stumbling for the right pronoun to use in conversation sometimes.  In fact, it came up earlier today.  My coworker and I were comparing notes about someone at site.  He used the pronoun "she" and then asked if I knew if it was a woman.  I didn't know.  He said he thought it was a woman, so we continued to use female pronouns.

    Even more fun, in Indonesian, the word for either "hello" or "dear".  I'm not sure which, but it's like the opening word of an e-mail that is followed by the person's name, is different depending on if you are addressing a man or woman.  I've occasionally been miscategorized as male.  I never say anything because I don't really care, lol, but sometimes someone else on the e-mail will.  For myself, I use the English "Hello" and try to be careful to use non-gender pronouns like you/they/them, if I don't know.

    There was one poor guy who seemed to feel really bad about the mistake and apologized profusely to me in his next e-mail.  I hope I successfully assuaged him that I totally understood and was not offended in the least.  Jennifer might be a super common female name in the West.  But not so much in Indonesia, lol.  I get it. 

    I've noticed some of them, especially the vendors, will often choose a Western-style first name for correspondence with their customers from the Americas and Europe.  So their e-mail signature might look something like:

    Legal first name (chosen Western first name in either quotes or parentheses) Last name.  Or sometimes they just use the Western first name, that I assume is something they chose to make it easier for their foreign customers.
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  • Hi mrsconn and Varuna! It's ilovewhoseweddingisitanyway (aka iloveblahblah). I can't figure out how to get logged in to that account and think I had it set to a previous work email I no longer have access to, so I made a new one. I've been lurking for awhile as new job has me trying to find things to do, and decided to finally post.

    I have something to add here that I think (and know Varuna will correct me if I'm wrong) makes it so simplistic when referring to trans/non-binary people, but really anyone. Just use they/them. For everyone. In daily life and get in to the habit of it. It takes the "guess work" out of it and helps the well-meaning people avoid slips when referring to things like banana468 brought up, about how to refer to someone in the past tense. 

    I actually got in to a heated conversation at Thanksgiving with H's uncle (who we do love because Uncle would do anything for us) but is SO VERY problematic in so many ways. I'd anticipated some sort of conversation when Uncle came over to hang out, because that's how the dynamic always seems to be. The conversations always stay above board and respectful for the most part, but Uncle loves to debate with me I think.

    Anyway, Uncle was referring to their daughter's friend, who is transitioning, and kept misgendering them, referring to them in their previous pronouns. At first I gently corrected Uncle and said "just use they/them, it's easier." Uncle kept referring back "when 'she' XYZ" and I'd insert "they," and round and round we went. Eventually it seemed as though Uncle wasn't really confused/slipping when referring to them in the past, but doing it intentionally, to make a point, that they would always be "she" to Uncle and it was PISSING ME OFF. At that point I went in to a whole diatribe about Uncle just being willfully ignorant because Uncle had 2 undergrad degrees and a Masters so clearly it wasn't that Uncle couldn't grasp the concept of they/them, Uncle was just committed to being problematic. 

    Whew, this got longer than I'd planned on, but my point is that I feel like if people in general just got in the habit of referring to every person as they/them, it becomes second nature and sets the example to others of A. how fucking easy it is to do that and B. it normalizes using they/them and doesn't set people up for these situations that LW got themselves in to (which I agree was probably an unintentional mess of their own making).
    "Gossip is the devil's telephone, best to just hang up."
  • @moira_rose_stan

    Dead at the new name.  Just ded.

    Image result for moira rose gif

    I have started trying to "de-gender" (I just made that up) my language and so I am tending towards using they/them for anyone.  It's also in smaller spaces though too.  For instance, if I see an attractive person, I just say: Oh, that's an attractive person or that's an attractive human.  B/c that teaches me not to assume a gender for someone (which dating an NB that is still very femme, is an issue, b/c NB [or any trans identity] is not based on appearance).  I'm sure there's some more things I can think of, but I'm sleepy.  :wink:
  • "Oh hello!" ::winks forever:: I knew you'd love that name

    I love that, and I totally support de-gendering as a word! I've been trying to use person/human when describing people lately as well. I like to put the emphasis on the *person/human* part, to make a point of humanizing people, because there's obviously way too much dehumanizing happening and being normalized. 
    "Gossip is the devil's telephone, best to just hang up."
  • I've been trying to do this as well, because weird gender assumptions kept coming up.  For example, hubby and I were having a discussion how we gender car drivers that do something stupid.  One of us always assumes it's a male bad driver, and one always assumes female - I don't know, it's a weird thing that we both started doing. It's always when we haven't actually seen who's behind the wheel, we just start using gendered pronouns to refer to the person. They/them makes so much more sense.  

  • kerbohl said:
    I've been trying to do this as well, because weird gender assumptions kept coming up.  For example, hubby and I were having a discussion how we gender car drivers that do something stupid.  One of us always assumes it's a male bad driver, and one always assumes female - I don't know, it's a weird thing that we both started doing. It's always when we haven't actually seen who's behind the wheel, we just start using gendered pronouns to refer to the person. They/them makes so much more sense.  
    I admit I do that also and I know it's not fair.  I don't even think any one particular gender tends to drive worse/better than the other.

    And if it's a bright yellow sports car.  Or a Trans Am/Mustang/Camaro that's been modified to make it louder.  I will also start making snarky assumptions about genital size.
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  • kerbohl said:
    I think I'm stuck on why the colleague asked for a different name in the first place.  If I ask what someone's partner's name is and they say "X", I think their name is "X".  What would make them think something else?  I mean, my actual name is a nickname for a different name (Think Meg as the full name instead of Megan), and people rarely ask me what my real name is, they just accept my name.  If someone tells you their name or the name of someone they know, that's their name ... I feel like I'm missing something here?  
    This is the part I'm stuck at. What would strike the co-worker to ask real name?
    I've had people {often older crowd} ask my real name when I was a server - because my legal name use to be considered a nickname - and they just couldn't grasp the concept that my name is not a short form.

    Which makes me wonder if LW's coworkers are older and just took the name as a short form/nickname, and LW didn't catch that part. Not saying what LW did was right, just trying to understand wtf happened.
  • VarunaTT said:
    *blink blink*  You shared a partner's deadname?  

    I would make sure to explain to co-worker that your partner's "real" name IS X and please do not use the deadname.  Explain what deadname is and why it's offensive to use.  

    And, TBH, I think you need to tell your partner what happened, explain your concerns and what you've done to fix this situation, and see what your partner wants to do b/c that's your guiding factor.

    And never talk about the deadname again to anyone, in any manner.  It's not your information to be sharing.

    FYI:  Deadname is the term used to reference the name of a transgender person before they came out as themselves.  Basically and usually, their birth name.  It's a pretty massive faux pas to ask someone their dead name (b/c it's almost always referred to as, "What's your real name" or "what's your birth name?"  It's none of your business, it's potentially greatly painful to the person you're speaking to, and it really denies a person their identity) and many LGBTQ+ organizations fight the media to correctly name transgender people in the news, b/c the media wants to use "legal" names, not the person's actual name (which for many reasons might not be legally changed).
    Not going to lie, as I was reading this I was curious on your response - mostly because I know you have mentioned K is non-binary, but also because you're more familiar with names/terminology with the LGBTQ+
    {to be noted, until your comment I didn't know the birth name was referred to as 'dead name' and am guilty of calling it that, and will know to stop}
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