Your husband is wrong

short+sassy

My husband and I have raised our kids to be pretty precise about grammar, because both of us grew up in poverty, and our studies helped us become much more financially stable as adults than we ever were as children. We especially stress the difference between good and well, number and amount, I and me, etc. Lately, my oldest (she’s 7) has started correcting her uncle, grandma, and other relatives when they make these grammatical mistakes. Many of the older family members have bristled and even gotten snappy in response. My daughter gets really upset when she’s snapped at, and it ruins the rest of her day. I think she should scale back on the corrections. It’s clear her older family members are still very hierarchical and get embarrassed about being corrected by somebody younger. I don’t want my daughter to get a reputation in the family. My husband thinks this is the wrong approach. He doesn’t want my daughter to internalize an “adults are always right” attitude (especially when they’re clearly wrong!) and thinks it’s great she has the confidence to speak up. My daughter is stuck in the middle and has started to get upset whenever we make plans with family members. What say you?

flantastic

"Adults are wrong a lot, but they also don't always like being told they're wrong. No one does - do you? I'm proud of you for knowing the right words. But we don't always have to tell people when they're wrong, unless it is an important thing they are wrong about, like if they are being unkind to someone. Since we know Grandma will probably get upset if you tell her she's using the wrong word, it probably doesn't help you to always tell her when she's using the wrong word."

There's room for nuance here.

banana468

Your daughter is 7.  There's a difference between your daughter going to these adults for help on her Language arts homework, listening to what they say when they are in charge (such as a family member saying to set the table when she's visiting) and questioning what they say that she may think is against her morals (such as hearing a racist uncle saying something completely inappropriate).  

Daughter ALSO needs to be told that in addition to being grammatically correct that it's an etiquette issue to correct people. 

Ask your husband if he frequently points out grammatical errors in the emails of his superiors. 

charlotte989875

The fact that your daughter has internalized the importance of grammar (above say the importance of how her family members feel) is sort of a big thing. Being precise about language is important, but this seems a little over the top. That she, at 7, has such a keen awareness of these words, & that’s it’s so important to be proper when using them, makes me think Dad is spending a lot of time criticizing word usage beyond what might be useful. 

Maybe Dad should spend some time talking about being humble. 

STARMOON44

I guarantee teaching your daughter to be rude is going to cancel out all of your other efforts. Teach her that adults aren’t always right, and that you still don’t correct them 

MissKittyDanger

So I've been sitting and thinking about this and something about this irks me.

LW states both them and the husband ingrained this into their kids because they grew up in poverty.
- irked because why does grammar have to do with home finances?

Now Husband seems to have flipped tables because Daughter is basically showing what she's learned?
- tbh this sounds like a Husband issue beyond the grammar.

Now the poor kid has to keep things internalized.

Why do I get a weird vibe that these family members are toxic?

short+sassy

STARMOON44 said:

I guarantee teaching your daughter to be rude is going to cancel out all of your other efforts. Teach her that adults aren’t always right, and that you still don’t correct them 

That's what I don't even understand about the husband's attitude!  It's rude to correct people about this kind of minutia.  That's not even in the same ballpark as not wanting her to assume that "adults are always right".

And now for my word "mix up" pet peeve.  People that use the word "borrowed" when they really mean "loaned".  I did not realize the national problem this is until I started watching daytime court tv and saw how often people make this mistake, lol.  Like, "My cousin's car was going to be repo'ed, unless she paid $500.  So I borrowed her the money."  Though, in that case, the judge always correct it because that is a time when the word choice needs to be accurate for testimony.

MyNameIsNot

MissKittyDanger said:

So I've been sitting and thinking about this and something about this irks me.

LW states both them and the husband ingrained this into their kids because they grew up in poverty.
- irked because why does grammar have to do with home finances?

Now Husband seems to have flipped tables because Daughter is basically showing what she's learned?
- tbh this sounds like a Husband issue beyond the grammar.

Now the poor kid has to keep things internalized.

Why do I get a weird vibe that these family members are toxic?

People in poorer communities have less formal education. Depending on the family or area, they may also be in a pocket community where everyone picks up colloquialisms or even speak a dialect that doesn't use to the same grammar rules. 

There's a whole stigma and this dad is being an ass. 

vegasgroom

MissKittyDanger said:

So I've been sitting and thinking about this and something about this irks me.

LW states both them and the husband ingrained this into their kids because they grew up in poverty.
- irked because why does grammar have to do with home finances?

Poor grammar can often cost one a job opportunity, so I could see a family who came out of poverty putting in an extra effort to reinforce any number of positive traits early on (the grammar not the correcting people).  Your first impression in a school, job, etc. interview is often your written and spoken word, possibly just spoken if it's a job interview, given how many hiring managers glance over resumes until the person is in front of them.

In any case, I see no reason why correcting ones elders is necessary, and clearly has more downside than upside; grandma isn't going to change her ways at this point in life.

downtondiva

You are right that your daughter needs to back off on correcting relatives' grammar. I say this as someone who has always been good at grammar - it's one thing to have high standards for yourself, or to be tough when proofreading someone else's writing. But doing correcting people's all the time in everyday conversation, whether with older relatives or with people her own age, is unnecessary and not going to endear her to anyone, and it's not worth the upset to her or to them. I don't think you need to tell her never to correct relatives over anything (i.e. if they say something prejudiced or that she finds personally hurtful, she should feel that she can say something), but she needs to learn that it's not necessary or appropriate for everything.

MissKittyDanger

Okay so genuine question
My mum grew up poor, and her nor her family are bad with grammar.

Is this a typical issue in the states?

I never asked any of my friends if they were poor - which maybe some were but I chalked it up to different lifestyle {i'm just 1 kid with both parents working, vs my bff who was oldest of 3 and her mom was a SAHM}
But none of them have/had grammar issues.

charlotte989875

MissKittyDanger said:

Okay so genuine question
My mum grew up poor, and her nor her family are bad with grammar.

Is this a typical issue in the states?

I never asked any of my friends if they were poor - which maybe some were but I chalked it up to different lifestyle {i'm just 1 kid with both parents working, vs my bff who was oldest of 3 and her mom was a SAHM}
But none of them have/had grammar issues.

It’s not a universal thing, but often in the US; where school budgets are largely determined by the property tax base, we have vastly different quality of education based on income. So dress where there are more people living below the poverty line tend to have poorer schools districts, which can often mean less consistency in teaching, poor test outcomes, and other disadvantages in the education system. And since education is left up to the states there is not a lot of consistency across the country for academic standards. 

charlotte989875

To add: it’s not “poor people are bad at grammar” it’s systems in place keep people in poverty and disadvantage them even in those institutions designed to give them opportunities to learn and grow. 

banana468

MissKittyDanger said:

Okay so genuine question
My mum grew up poor, and her nor her family are bad with grammar.

Is this a typical issue in the states?

I never asked any of my friends if they were poor - which maybe some were but I chalked it up to different lifestyle {i'm just 1 kid with both parents working, vs my bff who was oldest of 3 and her mom was a SAHM}
But none of them have/had grammar issues.

It's an issue if being poor also meant that you did not have a great education.  It varies. 

My maternal grandparents grew up poor and my grandfather also emigrated to the US when he was 13 which was an added change to him.   However he and my grandmother loved playing Scrabble as their game of choice and they were RUTHLESS.  I still remember a task I had in 7th grade English which was to memorize the poem Abou Ben Adhem.  At 80 years old he recited it when I told him about it. 

Conversely my paternal grandmother was orphaned and lived in the SAME city as my maternal grandparents.  Her upheaval and tossing through orphanages plus putting her education second meant that her grammar was not nearly as great. 

You'll also see disparities in areas of the country where the education systems in general are not rates as well as those in other areas.  

In my state teachers are paid well.   My son's tutor is a special ed teacher and will be buying a house soon.  In other states, teachers need a second job to supplement their incomes.  

MissKittyDanger

charlotte989875 said:

To add: it’s not “poor people are bad at grammar” it’s systems in place keep people in poverty and disadvantage them even in those institutions designed to give them opportunities to learn and grow. 

so it's pretty systemic?
That's unfortunate  

charlotte989875

MissKittyDanger said:

charlotte989875 said:

To add: it’s not “poor people are bad at grammar” it’s systems in place keep people in poverty and disadvantage them even in those institutions designed to give them opportunities to learn and grow. 

so it's pretty systemic?
That's unfortunate  

It certainly can be. I’ll add there’s the system problems and then there are individuals- clearly in this letter the Dad is taking an individual approach (with its own issues clearly) but not every kid in a poor district will get a poor education, just like not every kid in a rich district will get a good education. But systematically we make it more difficult for kids in lower income areas. 

banana468

MissKittyDanger said:

charlotte989875 said:

To add: it’s not “poor people are bad at grammar” it’s systems in place keep people in poverty and disadvantage them even in those institutions designed to give them opportunities to learn and grow. 

so it's pretty systemic?
That's unfortunate  

Yes.  This is a main complaint with Betsey DeVos and her proposals to push vouchers and school choice for parents without addressing the issues that are facing our schools.

There are tons of issues.   The other layer to this is parents who lack a good education and who lack the foundation at home to promote/assist in schooling lack the help when they struggle.  It's a vicious cycle. 

short+sassy

MissKittyDanger said:

charlotte989875 said:

To add: it’s not “poor people are bad at grammar” it’s systems in place keep people in poverty and disadvantage them even in those institutions designed to give them opportunities to learn and grow. 

so it's pretty systemic?
That's unfortunate  

Very (sigh).  It's one of the differences that both my H (Oregon) and I (CA) have seen from growing up on the West Coast, now living in New Orleans.  Louisiana always ranks in the bottom 5 on educational measures.  Not all parishes are bad, but public education is terrible in Orleans and neighboring Jefferson parish.  And those two parishes comprise the majority of Louisiana's population.

In general, people don't speak well here as compared to where we grew up.  It even goes beyond word choice.  Some people are hard to understand because they mumble their words so badly.  They don't enunciate.

Everyone here gives lip service to "more money for education".  And, for the average person I think that sentiment is true.  But I know in my heart that at least some of this problem is done on purpose.  It is pure evil.

Because it's actually very useful to have a higher percentage of people living at or below the poverty line.  They're less likely to raise a stink at the long line of mayors, city council people, and even a long time Congressman that blatantly embezzle money.

And all those politicians will have cronies in our two biggest industries.  Tourism and oil/gas.  But for tourism to work as well as it does, you need a LOT of people willing to work for low paying jobs.  Oil/gas jobs at least pay well.  But you don't want a lot of people going to a 4-year college either.  Most of those jobs are on-the-job learning or a trade school.  Definitely not knocking trade schools, they are great and can give people a lot of opportunities!  But it's still part of the vicious cycle to shortchange all students that are in public schools. 

vegasgroom

MissKittyDanger said:

Okay so genuine question
My mum grew up poor, and her nor her family are bad with grammar.

Is this a typical issue in the states?

I never asked any of my friends if they were poor - which maybe some were but I chalked it up to different lifestyle {i'm just 1 kid with both parents working, vs my bff who was oldest of 3 and her mom was a SAHM}
But none of them have/had grammar issues.

Just to add to the other thoughtful responses already posted; an additional issue here is we spend so much time focused on standardized tests, which teachers and public schools are graded on, that kids are pushed towards being great at checking the proper boxes rather than being great free thinkers, speakers, problem solvers.  Just watch an episode of Bachelor(ette) or any other 'reality' show and you'll see what I mean lol; if you took a drink every time a person couldn't have a simple conversation without every sentence including like, umm, or 'you know', you'd be comatose ten minutes in.

STARMOON44

The US also has lots of regional dialects and different minority groups who use variants on standard English. It’s not always a matter of not learning there is also the question of who decides what correct grammar is and why?