You know your H is right.

mrsconn23

Dear Prudence,

My husband is turning 50. We love both our children equally. But our daughter has developed some pretty extreme views since marrying a Christian pastor, and she had become a big part of the family Christian values movement. She has given us four grandkids (all under 6), with a fifth on the way. We love the grandkids to bits, her husband not so much, but I don’t think he knows that. Our son is openly gay and dating a boy that we have known forever. My daughter had told us she won’t let her kids be around homosexuality and has not spoken to her brother since he came out. This breaks our hearts and hurts her brother so much, as they used to be so close as kids. He went to her wedding, came out shortly after that, and they have been on icy terms since. We normally do separate family dinners and two Christmases to appease our daughter, as we love our grandchildren dearly and they should not miss out on family love because of their parents’ attitudes. Our daughter and her husband know we don’t agree with then, but we just ignore the elephant in the room for the sake of the kids. I don’t think they know how strongly we disagree with them to try to keep the peace.

Well, until now. My husband and I have money, and we have decided you only live once so we might as well spend some of it. For his 50th, we are taking 50 friends and family members away for the weekend. (Not plane flights, just a two-hour drive from us.) We have booked out an entire place with a pool on a huge farm-style resort. We have 10 grand worth of alcohol ready to go, catering will be booked, and the invites are ready to send. It will be a whole weekend of family, friends, lots of food, and drinking. We love our son and his boyfriend, so they and the boyfriend’s parents are all invited.

But … my husband doesn’t want to invite our daughter. We love her and are close, but he feels she will make a fuss about so many of our LGBTQ friends being there and will try and get us to uninvite her brother for the sake of the children, so the kids can spend the birthday weekend with their grandad. My husband loves his daughter, but feels like he is being guilt tripped and just doesn’t want to deal with it. He thinks she won’t even know about it as she us not on talking terms with anyone we are inviting. I share his attitude in that there is no way I’m kicking out son out of the weekend… but feel like we should at least invite them. They are still family. They still love my husband. They don’t really have many chances for a family weekend away, as being a stay-at-home mother and a pastor of a small church is not a huge income. I think they would like the weekend and I want my daughter to reconnect with her old friends. I feel disappointed that my husband is giving up. He says he doesn’t want to invite them, but is leaving the choice to send invitations up to me. So do I send them an invite? Or just leave it, and if it is ever mentioned by them, just explain we didn’t think they would be interested as her brother, his boyfriend, and his boyfriend’s family are all invited? Is it time we finally stop tip-toeing around this and take sides?

— Mother in the Middle

banana468

Honestly I think the H is sort of right but they're going about this the wrong way.

Stop tip toeing around this.  By not saying anything to your daughter your are enabling her vitriolic hate-filled behavior (and BTW, her behavior is NOT CHRISTIAN!). 

Be clear, "For your father's birthday this is what we have planned.  We're going to be inviting many people including your brother and our other mutual friends.  We wish we could invite you but based on your behavior to your brother and approach to our other friends who are members of the LGBTQ community we would like to celebrate with you and the kids at a later time." 

Expect it to go over like a lead balloon and for your  holiday schedule to have more free time.  

The big issue here is that you've let it get to THIS point using the party as the issue and that you didn't take a stand back when your son came out.  You shouldn't have been dealing with two sets of holidays either and now this is coming to a head.  

charlotte989875

I think you invite them but make it clear they have no say in anyone else on the guest list. If they want to miss an important weekend in his life because they’re bigots that’s on them. 

Casadena

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

mrsconn23

LW, I give you permission to release yourself from feeling like a 'bad mother' because you will not allow your daughter to disrespect your son/her brother, other people you love, and honestly, you and your H. There is no peace here, for you, your husband, your son, etc. because there's a massive bigoted elephant in the room you're trying to tiptoe around.   It literally sucks and is so disappointing, but your daughter is making choices that actively hurting a lot of people.  I hate that events like this become hills to plant your flag and die on, but you're about to spend a lot of money and the last thing you need is for your daughter to shit on it because she's an unreasonable troll. 

It's also beyond time to stop the two of everything.  Tell your daughter that you will have one Christmas, Easter, vacation, Sunday dinner, and she's invited if she's respectful and does not disparage anyone.  If she can't, she'll be asked to leave.  

And I know grandkids are involved here, but again she's choosing her choices.  Keep being kind to them and doing to the 'grandma' things (sending presents, cards, notes, etc.; however you grandparent) for them.  She is the parent and can deny you access.  Also realize she's using them as pawns, which is really messed up. 

banana468

Casadena said:

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

My point about drawing lines is that you simply DON'T.  The house is open for one event and not two.   Splitting them allows the daughter and SIL's hatred to be prioritized when it's the love of the children that should be. 

The daughter has likely taken over the SIL's view especially with the likelihood that there are some Irish twins in the mix. This is beyond just Christianity and likely into the Duggar/Quiverful style that is filled with more hatred than Jesus. 

Casadena

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

My point about drawing lines is that you simply DON'T.  The house is open for one event and not two.   Splitting them allows the daughter and SIL's hatred to be prioritized when it's the love of the children that should be. 

The daughter has likely taken over the SIL's view especially with the likelihood that there are some Irish twins in the mix. This is beyond just Christianity and likely into the Duggar/Quiverful style that is filled with more hatred than Jesus. 

oh I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you about what SHOULD happen.  I just think it's harder to be so black and white in practice.

banana468

Casadena said:

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

My point about drawing lines is that you simply DON'T.  The house is open for one event and not two.   Splitting them allows the daughter and SIL's hatred to be prioritized when it's the love of the children that should be. 

The daughter has likely taken over the SIL's view especially with the likelihood that there are some Irish twins in the mix. This is beyond just Christianity and likely into the Duggar/Quiverful style that is filled with more hatred than Jesus. 

oh I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you about what SHOULD happen.  I just think it's harder to be so black and white in practice.

Being a parent and speaking up isn't easy.  I get it.    

That also does not mean that the LW also get the free pass to this.  It's time to put the foot down and do what @mrsconn23 said being clear that the time has come for multiple events to stop and still send the presents to the kids but also know that they are likely brainwashed by their parents and used as pawns. 

I would try to not get into a discussion that is difficult but if some of the more right-wing Christian family members opted to speak out about my gay brother being in attendance at an event where they're invited I can tell them that my brother is ALWAYS welcome in my home but bigots aren't. 

Casadena

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

My point about drawing lines is that you simply DON'T.  The house is open for one event and not two.   Splitting them allows the daughter and SIL's hatred to be prioritized when it's the love of the children that should be. 

The daughter has likely taken over the SIL's view especially with the likelihood that there are some Irish twins in the mix. This is beyond just Christianity and likely into the Duggar/Quiverful style that is filled with more hatred than Jesus. 

oh I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you about what SHOULD happen.  I just think it's harder to be so black and white in practice.

Being a parent and speaking up isn't easy.  I get it.    

That also does not mean that the LW also get the free pass to this.  It's time to put the foot down and do what @mrsconn23 said being clear that the time has come for multiple events to stop and still send the presents to the kids but also know that they are likely brainwashed by their parents and used as pawns. 

I would try to not get into a discussion that is difficult but if some of the more right-wing Christian family members opted to speak out about my gay brother being in attendance at an event where they're invited I can tell them that my brother is ALWAYS welcome in my home but bigots aren't. 

I agree with all of that and it's what I would absolutely do as well.  Not giving her a free pass just acknowledging that for a lot of people it doesn't feel so black and white. 

mrsconn23

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

My point about drawing lines is that you simply DON'T.  The house is open for one event and not two.   Splitting them allows the daughter and SIL's hatred to be prioritized when it's the love of the children that should be. 

The daughter has likely taken over the SIL's view especially with the likelihood that there are some Irish twins in the mix. This is beyond just Christianity and likely into the Duggar/Quiverful style that is filled with more hatred than Jesus. 

oh I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you about what SHOULD happen.  I just think it's harder to be so black and white in practice.

Being a parent and speaking up isn't easy.  I get it.    

That also does not mean that the LW also get the free pass to this.  It's time to put the foot down and do what @mrsconn23 said being clear that the time has come for multiple events to stop and still send the presents to the kids but also know that they are likely brainwashed by their parents and used as pawns. 

I would try to not get into a discussion that is difficult but if some of the more right-wing Christian family members opted to speak out about my gay brother being in attendance at an event where they're invited I can tell them that my brother is ALWAYS welcome in my home but bigots aren't. 

Yeah, I keep coming back to that LW took a massively wrong turn when she let her daughter start dictating their family's interactions so the daughter could avoid a difficult situation for her (because I do not think for one second that daughter isn't having complicated emotions she's suppressing hard core because she knows she's wrong for holding extreme and terrible principles and hurting her family of origin) because now it's a difficult situation for everyone else. 

You know it's wrong LW and you're doing mental gymnastics to make it right without having to have a difficult conversation with your daughter. It's not how it works.  And if you keep trying to swallow this shit, you may find yourself on an island with your daughter because your H and your son (and extended family and friends) will not tolerate you allowing this to go on.  They don't need to take the poison pill with you. 

banana468

mrsconn23 said:

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

The H is right for sure about the weekend.  Don't invite them and I personally wouldn't say anything about it preemptively but if they ask or find out you can be honest.  You don't owe anyone, even family, an invitation.  

I also think it's a lot harder in reality to draw lines about not seeing daughter and grandkids at holidays, etc. I would guess that it's hard to be believe her daughter ACTUALLY feels this way and is just being influenced by a shitty husband and you can't save her from that if you cut off contact.  Doesnt' make it right, but it seems to me like that's a little bit of what the wife is struggling with. 

My point about drawing lines is that you simply DON'T.  The house is open for one event and not two.   Splitting them allows the daughter and SIL's hatred to be prioritized when it's the love of the children that should be. 

The daughter has likely taken over the SIL's view especially with the likelihood that there are some Irish twins in the mix. This is beyond just Christianity and likely into the Duggar/Quiverful style that is filled with more hatred than Jesus. 

oh I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you about what SHOULD happen.  I just think it's harder to be so black and white in practice.

Being a parent and speaking up isn't easy.  I get it.    

That also does not mean that the LW also get the free pass to this.  It's time to put the foot down and do what @mrsconn23 said being clear that the time has come for multiple events to stop and still send the presents to the kids but also know that they are likely brainwashed by their parents and used as pawns. 

I would try to not get into a discussion that is difficult but if some of the more right-wing Christian family members opted to speak out about my gay brother being in attendance at an event where they're invited I can tell them that my brother is ALWAYS welcome in my home but bigots aren't. 

Yeah, I keep coming back to that LW took a massively wrong turn when she let her daughter start dictating their family's interactions so the daughter could avoid a difficult situation for her (because I do not think for one second that daughter isn't having complicated emotions she's suppressing hard core because she knows she's wrong for holding extreme and terrible principles and hurting her family of origin) because now it's a difficult situation for everyone else. 

You know it's wrong LW and you're doing mental gymnastics to make it right without having to have a difficult conversation with your daughter. It's not how it works.  And if you keep trying to swallow this shit, you may find yourself on an island with your daughter because your H and your son (and extended family and friends) will not tolerate you allowing this to go on.  They don't need to take the poison pill with you. 

Exactly.  

Plus, what the LW is doing may just irritate everyone because she's so wishy washy she actually hasn't stood up for...anything.  

ei34

I'd invite the daughter and her family but going forward stop the separate holidays and events.  They're supporting the daughter and SILs disgusting beliefs by doing so.

VarunaTT

I think LW should invite them, with incredibly clear boundaries and repercussions if those boundaries are violated.  The issue here is not really the daughter, screw considering a bigots feelings, motivations, or intentions; it's making sure their son and friends continue to be supported and validated by them.  LW should be crystal clear.  "You are invited to this event.  Since I know your viewpoints, you and yours are expected to behave this way around our friends and family members who are LGBTQ+.  If I hear any noise about you making someone feel unsafe, YOU will be asked to leave, not them." and stick to it.  I would do the same thing with all family events moving forward and no longer doing 2 sets.

Daughter and family aren't going to come, but this way, the decision was made by daughter and is harder to weaponize then, "they didn't invite me at all."  

mrsconn23

This is totally beside the point, but if LW and H are just now 50...I wonder how old the kids are because they can only be so old.  Did they have their daughter in their late teens/early 20's? Brother is clearly younger.

I mean, she could be mid-30's if she was born when LW was 15 or 16.  I'm not getting that vibe, but if she's been married for long enough to have 4 kids and a 5th on the way, then she's been married and pregnant since her early 20's (and yes, one pregnancy could have been multiples). I guess I just have a ton of questions on how LW and H seem to have progressive ideals in this moment (and allude to them being long-standing) and their gen z (?) daughter is :: waves hand :: all that.   

The history in these situations always fascinates me. Like does daughter perceive brother was loved more/the golden child and this is her rebellion?!  Or were they more conservative and/or religious at some point and abandoned it, but it still had a hold on the daughter?  I want LW to make it make more sense.  LOL 

banana468

I'm thinking LW was likely married just out of college?  It's not totally unheard of if she got married to a college sweetheart and then had her daughter by 23 or 24?  

It kind of makes me wonder if the LW lives in an area where it's both common to marry young and also common to see a lot of evangelical Christians?

My thinking is that the daughter met her H in college, they got married as virgins right out of college and while her "faith" allows her to hate her brother she's never allowed a headache. 

kerbohl

VarunaTT said:

I think LW should invite them, with incredibly clear boundaries and repercussions if those boundaries are violated.  The issue here is not really the daughter, screw considering a bigots feelings, motivations, or intentions; it's making sure their son and friends continue to be supported and validated by them.  LW should be crystal clear.  "You are invited to this event.  Since I know your viewpoints, you and yours are expected to behave this way around our friends and family members who are LGBTQ+.  If I hear any noise about you making someone feel unsafe, YOU will be asked to leave, not them." and stick to it.  I would do the same thing with all family events moving forward and no longer doing 2 sets.

Daughter and family aren't going to come, but this way, the decision was made by daughter and is harder to weaponize then, "they didn't invite me at all."  

This, 100%.  My brother refuses to be with my sister, but if we don't invite him to stuff, then we are excluding him and we are the bad guys.  So we invite, say that certain people are going to be there and he can choose to come and be civil or he can choose to avoid.  And inevitably he avoids and then gets angry that we invited him knowing that he "can't" come, but it is because he knows he is in the wrong and being the jerk by not being able to go and be civil.  Let the daughter be the bad guy so that she has to deal with that guilt, and so she can't blame the brother for being the reason that she didn't get an invite.  Because a big party like this - she's going to find out.