Tuesday disguised as a Monday (for some)

CharmedPam

Hope BK is feeling better @misskittydanger, so she can get out and enjoy the 2 months of Summer you Canadians have!

@short+sassy good news on the car! Edit: truck. I meant truck.

I had a great weekend.  Not on Saturday.  I kept on overusing my electric outlets and blowing fuses. But my Dad helped me flip the correct circuits through facetime.  Ahhhh, technology. 

Sunday was busy for me. Brunch with some ladies and then on Saturday my friend asked what I was doing on Sunday, as one of his friends (who became one of mine through covid lockdown) was having a BBQ. I said “well, interesting enough. Nothing”.  So we went over to his house.  I had been game zooming with a bunch of people since 2020 and we never met before, until Sunday.  So 7 of us 8 regulars FINALLY met. It was so surreal and we kept on going “omg we’ve finally all met in person!”.  It was much fun. And I was invited back so I can’t be that awful to hang out with

Monday, was a super lazy day.  I stayed in (90 degrees no thank you!) and recouped from all the last minute peopleing I did. Today I’m back in the office without arm compression for the first time and it feels SO weird to have the arm fat flapping in the wind again.

Hope everyone had a great weekend!

mrsconn23

This is my Monday, Tuesday, and Friday all in one.  LOL  I was going to only take Thu/Fri off this week, but with the reality of SIL/BIL/Nieces/Niece's BF/DH/DefConn ALL here in the house and I'm the only one working, I can't hack it.  There are PTO slots available for tomorrow, so I took it.  

Weekend was a lot. Thursday night feels like a year ago.  DefConn is definitely recovered from his head injury.  He was down most of Friday and slept long nights Friday and Saturday.  He seems to be much better now.  Saturday, we went to the wedding and Sunday, DH stained the deck. 

Yesterday was hectic AF.  We had a situation with the kiddo that emergent and stressful (which was mostly his own doing to himself) that came up in the midst of my nieces getting to our house and us trying to hurry up and get things in order since BIL/SIL were not far behind them.  DH had to leave to go deal with him for several hours. The kiddo is fine, even though all us adults (DH, SIL, FIL, me) want to bash him upside the head.  

But after all that and just how no matter how loud I turn up these airpods all these people in my house are loud AF, I'm out after today.  Can't do it.   Ha.  They are going to see Top Gun this afternoon, which I'm sad I can't go, but glad I'll have a few hours. 

climbingsingle

I had such a great weekend. I ended up working from home Friday which was great not having to battle that holiday traffic home. The kids came over and we watched Stranger Things. 

Saturday we took the kids to see the Bob's Burgers movie. Super hilarious. It poured and was cold all day, which was a bummer. We ended up cooking our free Shoprite ham (from Easter, finally. was in the freezer) for dinner along with mashed potatoes and asparagus from the garden. So good. 

Sunday we went to a BBQ at my brother's house. Got to see my nephew, who is so big already! He'll be 4 months this week. After that we went to another friend's house to sit out by their firepit. 

Yesterday though was insanely muggy and hot so we mostly just hid out in the A/C. 

MissKittyDanger

@CharmedPam lol it's like July weather out there right now .... send help!

MissKittyDanger

Major downside of introvert parent is playdates.
BK has been named as a someone another kid wants a playdate with.
We just rebooked BK's playdate with A and we still need a playdate with R

Apparently we're just having a busy summer of playdates lol I know A & R don't live nearby so they won't be going to the same school but idk about M

I know I should be glad BK is making friends, but I don't interact with people well - I'm awkward lol

The playdate with A is likely at a splash pad so at least it's less awkward? Idk.


BK's party is this weekend and since the road by the Party City is still blocked from post storm clean up, I had to amazon a lot of stuff. Unfortunately some balloons wouldn't get here until after the party, so I'm checking another store before I just get basic balloons.

I cannot believe BK is 4

CharmedPam

MissKittyDanger said:

@CharmedPam lol it's like July weather out there right now .... send help!

Oh. Maybe you’ll get three months of summer this year? Lol.  We had a mysteriously hot week in early May that broke records!

missJeanLouise

That sounds like a great weekend @CharmedPam

We didn't have a holiday and didn't do anything special over the weekend. Saturday DH and I had a fight and then he took DS to the pool so I could get some schoolwork done. Sunday we sat around which made DH happy and irritated me. 

Tomorrow I am doing a pool workout and I am kind of dreading it. I sent my trainer and work out buddy a screenshot of a Ladies Day offer at a recently opened hotel. It included pool access, 5 beverages, and some food credits. I was like, we should do this instead of working out. And now we are working out in the pool and TIL, there is no shallow end. The entire pool is ~6' deep. Even if we just tread water for 45 minutes I am going to die but my trainer gave a evil laugh when we talked about it today. I am so scared.

banana468

Weekend was decent and busy!

Saturday we FINALLY dropped off a dresser at MIL and FIL's because FIL said he'd take it.  I needed it out of the house.  Chiquita and I bought plants that I'll probably plant this weekend and DH and Chiquito went to church.  We did dinner and a movie with the kids and watched the new Chip and Dale which was cute and decent to watch as a family.  It's not going to win any awards but it can be a decent way to be inside in the summer.

Sunday DH and Chiquito were off to a Cub Scout fishing derby while Chiquita and I went to mass.  That afternoon we took a ride on the new boat and then made a quick trip home before heading to the current marina for the kids to swim and dinner.  The regular crowd was there and there was an issue with poor Chiquita just not being a member of the "cool group" and instead she's more of the monkey in the middle.  DH and I both talked to her about sticking up for herself because while I think the ringleader of the group is going to be a bully in training I'm really hesitant to walk up to her parents when I'm ALSO not a cool mom to say, "Could you please tell your kiddo that it really sucks how she's treating my daughter?"  There are some things that need to be navigated by kids and it hurts but right now I'm sticking out.  

MIL started to get a bit hissy (she does - I call it Parsel-(MIL'sname)) and said she's going to complain about a dude who was smoking a cigar that night.  I have asked DH to do what he can to tell his dad that he needs to tell her to sit back down because I'm not going to have our summer ruined because she's stompy AND we bought the new boat - so I'm not going to let my MIL's mouth ruin our financial burden.  It absolutely sucks for DH and he has said as much but he also heard me loud and clear that he gets to pick which woman he wants to his louder. 

Sunday night Chiquito handed out candles with his pack for the Memorial Day vigil service on the town green and yesterday he marched in the parade with DH.  The afternoon was full of swimming and salt water and pizza and now the kids are back at school. Chiquita has a field trip today and it's going to be 90 degrees.  I hope she comes home not totally exhausted.  Both kids have sports tonight with Chiquito at a game and Chiquita at practice and I know both desperately need ice cream so it's on my post-soccer practice list. 

Random question for you knotties: do you have a favorite bra to wear under tanks?  I have on a cute tank dress today and while I can cross my bra straps in the back they stick out at the top and now the shirt is riding down in the front showing off a part of the bra.  Why must this be so difficult? 

ei34

That's nice that you guys got to finally meet in person @CharmedPam
Happy belated bday to BK @MissKittyDanger
Weekend was enjoyable, with the exception of a couple harsh stbxh moodswings.  Bbq'ed all three days but different menus each time, so it didn't get monotonous.  It rained on and off all Saturday, but off enough so that my kids got some swim time in.  Our town pool doesn't open until Father's Day weekend so Sunday and yesterday at home it was all about the slip & slide and sprinkler. 
We're in a mini-heatwave, yesterday it got to 85 and it's 90 today...thankfully back down to 70 tomorrow bc I'm always abruptly reminded each year that I'm not a hot weather person once I'm in it.

levioosa

I am at work by either the grace of god or the curse of the devil depending on how you look at it. We had a little too much to drink yesterday but the bigger issue was that I literally couldn’t sleep last night. I was just laying in bed for hours fully awake. The final sleep total was 2.5 hours and I’m not young enough to survive on that any more. I’m reasonably sure that if I had slept I wouldn’t exactly be sprightly, but I wouldn’t be cramming chips and guac down my throat in my office at 9 am. 

Weekend was a lot of fun though. We saw Top Gun with all of the parents on Sunday. Yesterday we hung out at FSIL A’s and it was a lot of fun. We found a soccer ball on the field next to their place and we spent some time kicking it around. It was a beautiful day out. 

Otherwise, SSDD. My coworker is out this week so I have to do double duty and I am not ready for it. Send help. 

CharmedPam

banana468 said:

Random question for you knotties: do you have a favorite bra to wear under tanks?  I have on a cute tank dress today and while I can cross my bra straps in the back they stick out at the top and now the shirt is riding down in the front showing off a part of the bra.  Why must this be so difficult? 

I ended up getting clear bra straps for a bra I already owned for my cold shoulder and tank tops.  I also re discovered the sticky pad “nu bra”. But it hurts to take that off as the material is super sticky and sticks to your skin and sensitive areas. 

As far as bullies and leaving kids out.  😡 I hate reading that. My niece is STILL going through this at school and it breaks my heart!

MissKittyDanger

CharmedPam said:

MissKittyDanger said:

@CharmedPam lol it's like July weather out there right now .... send help!

Oh. Maybe you’ll get three months of summer this year? Lol.  We had a mysteriously hot week in early May that broke records!

Where I am, we have 100% had heat from May until mid/late September lol

banana468

CharmedPam said:

banana468 said:

Random question for you knotties: do you have a favorite bra to wear under tanks?  I have on a cute tank dress today and while I can cross my bra straps in the back they stick out at the top and now the shirt is riding down in the front showing off a part of the bra.  Why must this be so difficult? 

I ended up getting clear bra straps for a bra I already owned for my cold shoulder and tank tops.  I also re discovered the sticky pad “nu bra”. But it hurts to take that off as the material is super sticky and sticks to your skin and sensitive areas. 

As far as bullies and leaving kids out.  😡 I hate reading that. My niece is STILL going through this at school and it breaks my heart!

I'm frustrated by it because it's so transparent to me as the mom and I don't "get" why the other mom doesn't see it BUT I also don't want to step in and say anything when I have to let my daughter speak up too.  It breaks my heart when I see a kid that's knowingly crappy. 

ei34

banana468 said:

CharmedPam said:

banana468 said:

Random question for you knotties: do you have a favorite bra to wear under tanks?  I have on a cute tank dress today and while I can cross my bra straps in the back they stick out at the top and now the shirt is riding down in the front showing off a part of the bra.  Why must this be so difficult? 

I ended up getting clear bra straps for a bra I already owned for my cold shoulder and tank tops.  I also re discovered the sticky pad “nu bra”. But it hurts to take that off as the material is super sticky and sticks to your skin and sensitive areas. 

As far as bullies and leaving kids out.  😡 I hate reading that. My niece is STILL going through this at school and it breaks my heart!

I'm frustrated by it because it's so transparent to me as the mom and I don't "get" why the other mom doesn't see it BUT I also don't want to step in and say anything when I have to let my daughter speak up too.  It breaks my heart when I see a kid that's knowingly crappy. 

So feel this.  My oldest is the kindest, friendliest kid but she's just riding on the parameters of close friendships.  We marched in our town's Memorial Day parade yesterday with her Brownie troop, it was sad to watch her hanging onto close-knit girls' conversations from the outside.  I will say no one was mean or bullying, but I wished one of the other moms would've seen and prompted one of their daughters to be more inclusive.  As she gets older parties are morphing from the whole class to your 3-4 closest friends, I just wish she was someone's 3rd or 4th closest friend.  I tell my own students to include kids they see consistently sitting alone but feel like I can't tell my daughter's classmates, a teacher can say things a mom cannot.

banana468

ei34 said:

banana468 said:

CharmedPam said:

banana468 said:

Random question for you knotties: do you have a favorite bra to wear under tanks?  I have on a cute tank dress today and while I can cross my bra straps in the back they stick out at the top and now the shirt is riding down in the front showing off a part of the bra.  Why must this be so difficult? 

I ended up getting clear bra straps for a bra I already owned for my cold shoulder and tank tops.  I also re discovered the sticky pad “nu bra”. But it hurts to take that off as the material is super sticky and sticks to your skin and sensitive areas. 

As far as bullies and leaving kids out.  😡 I hate reading that. My niece is STILL going through this at school and it breaks my heart!

I'm frustrated by it because it's so transparent to me as the mom and I don't "get" why the other mom doesn't see it BUT I also don't want to step in and say anything when I have to let my daughter speak up too.  It breaks my heart when I see a kid that's knowingly crappy. 

So feel this.  My oldest is the kindest, friendliest kid but she's just riding on the parameters of close friendships.  We marched in our town's Memorial Day parade yesterday with her Brownie troop, it was sad to watch her hanging onto close-knit girls' conversations from the outside.  I will say no one was mean or bullying, but I wished one of the other moms would've seen and prompted one of their daughters to be more inclusive.  As she gets older parties are morphing from the whole class to your 3-4 closest friends, I just wish she was someone's 3rd or 4th closest friend.  I tell my own students to include kids they see consistently sitting alone but feel like I can't tell my daughter's classmates, a teacher can say things a mom cannot.

And the tricky part for this is that when we're down at the pool, those aren't her true friends.  They are people she knows but they aren't year round buddies.  But when they're all playing together in a smaller pool, it's totally natural to want to flock to kids your age and be included.

But when they literally ask you to join and play so you can be the monkey in the middle (or the seeker for any other game played) and they CHANGE the rules to keep you in that position it pisses me off.  If it continues I may chime in as a mom to just pull her out and ask her to help me.  

short+sassy

I'm not sure when it happened.  But, as I've gotten older, my hair has turned into the ugliest shade of brown.

When I was child, it was golden blonde.  It got darker as I got older, but was still a cornucopia of great shades that varied from light blonde to medium brown.

It's still like that around the bottom third or so.  My hair is long and I think it gets lighter as it's exposed to sun.  But the newer growth on the top of my head is such a drab, dull color.  I don't usually notice it but, when I do, I hate it.  Most brunettes have beautiful, glossy hair that is such a rich shade of brown.  What happened to mine, lol?

The reason for my hair rant is I just made an appointment for the Aveda Institute to lighten my hair a couple shades and trim off the dead ends.  It's the first hair appointment I've made since the pandemic!  But, to be fair, Aveda is the only time I go to a hair salon and pre-pandemic, it was only 1-2x/year anyway.

I don't like spending the time to get my hair done.  But I've always loved the results!  So I'm looking forward to my appointment on Friday.    

missJeanLouise

@ei34 FWIW, I feel like this was me growing up, always on the edge of a friend group, and I feel like it served me well. I was always able to dip out of situations if I didn't like what was happening without worrying about some social fallout, I got to explore all of my interests because I wasn't stuck with the same group doing the same things all of the time, I can make small talk with almost anyone if I want to, etc. If anything I wasn't part of the inner circle of any one group because I would get bored and want to do something else after a while, so with no hard feelings I would do that. 

@banana468 does your daughter seem upset by how the other girls treat her?

Casadena

missJeanLouise said:

@ei34 FWIW, I feel like this was me growing up, always on the edge of a friend group, and I feel like it served me well. I was always able to dip out of situations if I didn't like what was happening without worrying about some social fallout, I got to explore all of my interests because I wasn't stuck with the same group doing the same things all of the time, I can make small talk with almost anyone if I want to, etc. If anything I wasn't part of the inner circle of any one group because I would get bored and want to do something else after a while, so with no hard feelings I would do that. 

@banana468 does your daughter seem upset by how the other girls treat her?

i was going to say something similar.  I never really had a "group" but rarely remember being bothered by it for exactly those reasons.  Definitely a different story if Chiquita is not having fun or getting really upset, but if she's not, maybe it's ok?  I was always friends with everyone but never super tight with anyone and definitely not anyone's 3-4th best friend!!!  

Casadena

Our weekend was super busy but fun!  We took the boys to the zoo on Saturday and MIL/FIL/SIL tagged along.  It was nice to have some extra help wrangling.  Sunday was MIL's bday so H's whole fam went to IL's new house for food and hanging out.  Got to meet SIL's boyfriend (can't call him new, they've been dating almost 2 years and live 20 miles from us, but we've never been able to connect before!).  Definitely like him.  

Yesterday we just hung out and played at home and then walked across the street for a BBQ dinner with some of the neighbors.  It was nice to actually talk to everyone that we've been waving hello to for 4 years.  Boys had fun and everyone loved having little kiddos around (most of their kids are older).

Everyone crashed early and slept late this morning!

banana468

Oh, Chiquita came up to me in tears on Sunday night.  She never did previously but I think this was the start to the year that messed her night up.  

She has closer friends and what I'm going to do is contact the parents who are also friends of mine and I'll invite them down for dinner, drinks and swimming.  

MNNEBride

We had a great weekend with friends in IL.  We drove over on Friday and back on Monday.  As we were leaving to go to dinner on Friday night, my friend lost her balance on the stoop and fell.  She got right back up and said she was OK.  But by the end of dinner she had a ping pong ball sized swelling on her right wrist and was in quite a bit of pain.  She didn't want to go to the ER so we went to her house where her daughter, who is an OT, fashioned a splint for her and urged her to go in.  I finally took her to urgent care on Saturday morning and x-ray confirmed she broke her wrist.  She got a big soft cast, sling, pain meds and a referral to the hand specialist.  

Later on Saturday we went to an anniversary party for mutual friends.  They has a jazz quartet that was phenomenal.  We didn't tell them my DH and I were coming so it was a nice surprise.

Sunday was a cookout with IL friend's kids and grandkids.  Lots of time outdoors.

Monday was driving back (about 5 hours) and then relaxing at home for a few hours.  Back at work for both of us today.

mrsconn23

Poor Chiquita!  This age is SO HARD.  I think inviting her (and your) 'IRL' friends is a great plan.  

We've been going through friend stuff too.  It doesn't help that DefConn isn't into sports or video games.  He's an 11 year gearhead who loves trucks and dirt bikes and wants to talk about engines and car mods.  And he's so technically knowledgeable that it flies over other kids heads.  Hell, he get looks from adults who know their shit and can't believe some of the questions he asks or things he knows about.  

banana468

mrsconn23 said:

Poor Chiquita!  This age is SO HARD.  I think inviting her (and your) 'IRL' friends is a great plan.  

We've been going through friend stuff too.  It doesn't help that DefConn isn't into sports or video games.  He's an 11 year gearhead who loves trucks and dirt bikes and wants to talk about engines and car mods.  And he's so technically knowledgeable that it flies over other kids heads.  Hell, he get looks from adults who know their shit and can't believe some of the questions he asks or things he knows about.  

If there are two things I don't want to relive it's being cheated on and my middle school years.    

CharmedPam

banana468 

If there are two things I don't want to relive it's being cheated on and my middle school years.    

missJeanLouise

@banana468 ooohhhh. That breaks my heart, as it did yours I am sure. I think inviting one of her actually friends is a great idea. This is probably a good time to have the. "you're not going to like everybody and not everyone is going to like you" talk. Remind her that her friends love her and that she should spend time and energy on them.  

Now I am going to tell you a long, antidotal story that helped me growing up.

When I was in the first grade, I met a girl named Penny. She was a year older than me but we went to the same school and lived in the same neighborhood so we saw each other fairly frequently but were never sleep over close. Over the years, she and I would flit around the friend groups. Like me she seemed to never really be in the inner circle of any one friend group but friendly with them all. You would think this would make us great friends but Alicia always kind of bothered me. She was loud and energetic where I am more quiet and relaxed. She is goofy and extra positive, I am sarcastic and a nay-sayer. But here's the thing, this is a one sided view of the relationship. I would find out later that Alicia LOVES me. She is one of my biggest supporters, a true cheerleader. She loves me no matter if I am depressed and haven't washed my hair in 3 weeks, or drunk and making an ass of myself, or ghosting my friends because I have a new boyfriend. And I love her for it. She is the person who taught me that I was deserving of love, even in my shittiest times. She is the ying to my yang. I love that she has the biggest heart, she takes chances, she loves enthusiasm that makes me roll my eyes, lol. If I met her today we probably wouldn't be friends but I am so glad that she exists and I would be a different person without her.

So, when I was feeling down or rejected I would just think of her. She loves me for me, for all my negative qualities just as much as the positive ones. I don't need to spend time trying to impress someone who doesn't like me, I have someone who likes me. 

There are and will be people out there like that for her. 

banana468

Thank you!  We did say that she's not going to need to be friends with everyone and it's fine to stick up for herself or say that she's not going to play according to their rules especially if they keep changing. 

You don't need to like or friend everyone and sometimes growth is learning to just be civil. 

ei34

missJeanLouise said:

@ei34 FWIW, I feel like this was me growing up, always on the edge of a friend group, and I feel like it served me well. I was always able to dip out of situations if I didn't like what was happening without worrying about some social fallout, I got to explore all of my interests because I wasn't stuck with the same group doing the same things all of the time, I can make small talk with almost anyone if I want to, etc. If anything I wasn't part of the inner circle of any one group because I would get bored and want to do something else after a while, so with no hard feelings I would do that. 

@banana468 does your daughter seem upset by how the other girls treat her?

My daughter is aware that she's on the outskirts and has expressed wanting a friend group.  When we watched Turning Red, for example, she burst out with "that's what I want, a girl group!".  Like she would like a group of close friends to able to invite to the marina, like you suggested banana. 
^this does sound like it served you well @missJeanLouise.  I just want what my daughter wants...down the line if she switches her preference to not wanting close friends I'll be on board with that.

MissKittyDanger

Adding on the bullying thing, friend of mine is saying she's being called the neighbourhood Karen but she said she's accepting this term because she has to constantly step in on kids being awful to her son

Apparently they agitate him and them film when he gets upset. Idk if it makes a difference, but I believe he is autistic.

Anyways yeh she's given up on telling people to be kind, and started just telling people to leave her son alone.

Wtf is wrong with kids  

banana468

MissKittyDanger said:

Adding on the bullying thing, friend of mine is saying she's being called the neighbourhood Karen but she said she's accepting this term because she has to constantly step in on kids being awful to her son

Apparently they agitate him and them film when he gets upset. Idk if it makes a difference, but I believe he is autistic.

Anyways yeh she's given up on telling people to be kind, and started just telling people to leave her son alone.

Wtf is wrong with kids  

It stinks especially if your kid is on the spectrum.

But I'm also a big proponent of not stepping in on other people's kids unless it's truly necessary.  If my kid's acting like a jerk come talk to me about it. 

Even in THIS situation if I felt it warranted escalating I'm not going to scold another 11 yo.  I'm going to talk to the mom and say that I noticed there appears to be conflict and I am going to talk to my daughter and hope she talks to hers that there can be a way to resolve it.  

MissKittyDanger

banana468 said:

MissKittyDanger said:

Adding on the bullying thing, friend of mine is saying she's being called the neighbourhood Karen but she said she's accepting this term because she has to constantly step in on kids being awful to her son

Apparently they agitate him and them film when he gets upset. Idk if it makes a difference, but I believe he is autistic.

Anyways yeh she's given up on telling people to be kind, and started just telling people to leave her son alone.

Wtf is wrong with kids  

It stinks especially if your kid is on the spectrum.

But I'm also a big proponent of not stepping in on other people's kids unless it's truly necessary.  If my kid's acting like a jerk come talk to me about it. 

Even in THIS situation if I felt it warranted escalating I'm not going to scold another 11 yo.  I'm going to talk to the mom and say that I noticed there appears to be conflict and I am going to talk to my daughter and hope she talks to hers that there can be a way to resolve it.  

It's been escalated many times for my friend.
School. Teachers. Principal.
Home. Parents. Kids.

She unfortunately feels like no one g.a.f - like when she first saw kids bugging her son and then recording, she told the parents right away.

They didn't care. I feel that's the hardest part - if I heard that about BK, she'd be losing her phone! Like .... guh people.

banana468

MissKittyDanger said:

banana468 said:

MissKittyDanger said:

Adding on the bullying thing, friend of mine is saying she's being called the neighbourhood Karen but she said she's accepting this term because she has to constantly step in on kids being awful to her son

Apparently they agitate him and them film when he gets upset. Idk if it makes a difference, but I believe he is autistic.

Anyways yeh she's given up on telling people to be kind, and started just telling people to leave her son alone.

Wtf is wrong with kids  

It stinks especially if your kid is on the spectrum.

But I'm also a big proponent of not stepping in on other people's kids unless it's truly necessary.  If my kid's acting like a jerk come talk to me about it. 

Even in THIS situation if I felt it warranted escalating I'm not going to scold another 11 yo.  I'm going to talk to the mom and say that I noticed there appears to be conflict and I am going to talk to my daughter and hope she talks to hers that there can be a way to resolve it.  

It's been escalated many times for my friend.
School. Teachers. Principal.
Home. Parents. Kids.

She unfortunately feels like no one g.a.f - like when she first saw kids bugging her son and then recording, she told the parents right away.

They didn't care. I feel that's the hardest part - if I heard that about BK, she'd be losing her phone! Like .... guh people.

Man that sucks.  I'd be all over them at that point too!