Bonus Friday: AITA?

CharmedPam

I like this one. I’m torn because I don’t think LW IS the asshole, but I believe a ring like that should remain in the family.
https://www.someecards.com/lifestyle/family/man-family-heirloom-ring-fiancee-aita/?fbclid=IwAR2Kr7tiD2fDaV8RgVV9JZYQc2JjBwDtcGX_XUFJlF79VFRUON5Zr-bJxVY_aem_AeZqXm424Oi6_EfPBIkXkUP2uKbW7CrQWBneYB6J6zaFdxlFQMvW-jTN254_2WEPCxc

I (36 male) have a 16 year old daughter named Jane. Jane is a great kid and was really close to my mom until she passed away a year ago. My mother gave one piece of her jewelry to her children before she passed away. I was given her engagement ring.

I have been planning a proposal to my girlfriend, Laura (30 female) for about 6 months now. Jane is from my previous relationship (her mother and I were never married). I’ve been dating Laura for about 5 years.

I told Jane I was going to propose. She was happy about it and asked to see the ring. I told her I’d be using my mothers ring and Jane looked upset so I asked her what was wrong. She said she had assumed the ring would be hers since she is my daughter. I explained the ring was given to me and there are other heirlooms (small items like rosary beads) she can have. 

For clarification I do have the money to buy a ring but the sentimental value of this ring is why I wanted to use it. Laura also helped us take care of our mom while she was sick and they were close. I proposed to Laura with the ring and she said yes.

After this happened Jane cried to her uncle (my brother) about it and he understands both points. His wife thinks I’m an AH so do some other family members. I obviously can’t take it back from Laura when I already proposed. AITA?

short+sassy

NAH

The LW had every right to propose to his g/f with his mother's ring.  Especially since the fiance knew his mother and they were close.

But at the same time, it's sad that Jane was disappointed and I can understand that also.

Perhaps Laura would be okay with leaving Jane the ring in her own will.  So at least Jane knows it will be hers someday.

Or maybe Laura would be okay getting a different ring in the future, if Jane wants that one as her own wedding ring.  I realize not all women would be okay with changing out their wedding ring, but I would be.  Plus Jane is still young.  She might not want it as her own wedding ring later on anyway.

Casadena

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. But I know I'd feel exactly like Jane does and I would absolutely buy a new ring and leave that one to my daughter. Obviously LW can do whatever he wants and no one else is entitled to the ring, but I thinks he's a tiny bit the AH here. I lean toward daughter with the ring.  

mrsconn23

I think LW should buy a ring and give his mom's ring to Jane.  Because if it's upsetting to her, LW is possibly (unintentionally, I presume) setting up resentment between Jane and Laura since it will be something that Laura (again, I presume) will wear daily and Jane will see it.  I do understand LW's reasoning, but it's not like the ring is going outside the family or he'll never see it again.  

This is complicated, but Jane's life and relationship with LW's mom predates Laura being around, no matter how great of a relationship Laura had with his mom and how helpful she was during her illness.  Why do you want to sow that sort of discord, mired in grief, when I bet Laura would have understood LW giving the ring to Jane and probably would have been happy with a ring he picked out for her? 

CharmedPam

short+sassy said:

Perhaps Laura would be okay with leaving Jane the ring in her own will.  So at least Jane knows it will be hers someday.

I was thinking this too, but unfortunately with divorce rates being so high, I would fear if god forbid that happened, it could be an ugly divorce. Maybe out of spite Laura wouldn’t return the ring, and then Jane would never see it again?
I would hope Laura found out about the dissapoitment and out of her own free will would give up the ring? But we don’t know much about Laura and her personality 

banana468

I don't think LW is the AH.  LW was given the ring.  The ring is now going to the person LW is choosing to marry.

LW's daughter does not have a claim to the ring and once the LW is married the ring IS in the family.

I get that this is slightly different in that the LW did not marry Jane's mother so the path to proposal and children did not take the traditional linear route, but that does not change the concept that the ring was LW's to use AND based on the age of the FI, it's quite possible that there may also be a next of kin who inherits the ring - that next of kin may not be Jane.

I am not a fan of the concept that grandchildren have a claim to their grandparent's possessions including the presumption that one would be theirs.  Jane is out of line.  

banana468

I also fully get that there's a question here about the dynamic w/ the daughter.  I don't know enough to see if this is worth possibly avoiding the rift or not.

I'm less likely to want to give into a teenager but also get that their closeness is not something to ignore either.  

levioosa

I feel torn, because while technically LW is NAH this has the very likely possibility of causing tension in the family. 

If I was Laura and I heard a whiff of the drama that’s rippling through the family I’d probably just tell my FI we needed to get a separate engagement/wedding ring and just side step all of the nonsense. 

Casadena

I don't think it's fair to say that Jane is out of line - she's entitled to her feelings about it and is well within her rights to be disappointed and tell people about it. LW still did what he wanted, which was also his right. 

banana468

Casadena said:

I don't think it's fair to say that Jane is out of line - she's entitled to her feelings about it and is well within her rights to be disappointed and tell people about it. LW still did what he wanted, which was also his right. 

Jane's entitled to her feelings.  She's out of line to cry to her uncle about something to attempt to get him or the wife to be on her side about something that was never hers.   She has every right to be sad.  She's a child and sought to appeal to divide her father from his sibling.  

If this was a grown adult I'd consider it to be different but she's a teenager who stepped way out of line.  

Casadena

Agree to disagree i guess - seems harsh to put that judgement on a kid.

banana468

Casadena said:

Agree to disagree i guess - seems harsh to put that judgement on a kid.

I'm not judging the kid's right to her opinion.  I'm judging the 16 year old going to her uncle and his wife with the sole intent to sow division and hatred of her father because she didn't get grandma's diamond.   That's petulance and not behavior to reward. 

If she handled it within the bounds of the family itself I'd consider something different and may even suggest that the dad consider a different action and propose with a different ring.  But that would not mean that the next step equals the ring going to the child now or anytime soon.  I'd be making it quite clear that her opinion could be taken into consideration but the ring isn't hers and should it go to her eventually it's going to be in a safe deposit box until that time. 

Casadena

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

Agree to disagree i guess - seems harsh to put that judgement on a kid.

I'm not judging the kid's right to her opinion.  I'm judging the 16 year old going to her uncle and his wife with the sole intent to sow division and hatred of her father because she didn't get grandma's diamond.   That's petulance and not behavior to reward. 

If she handled it within the bounds of the family itself I'd consider something different and may even suggest that the dad consider a different action and propose with a different ring.  But that would not mean that the next step equals the ring going to the child now or anytime soon.  I'd be making it quite clear that her opinion could be taken into consideration but the ring isn't hers and should it go to her eventually it's going to be in a safe deposit box until that time. 

SIB  If she's close to her uncle it makes sense that she confided her disappointment - sounds like uncle brought up to others in the family. I highly a doubt a 16 year old is purposely "sowing division and hatred of her father". Sounds like a disppointed and confused kid who just lost her grandma that she's very close to, is gaining a stepmom, and feels like her dad is not really understanding her feelings. 

charlotte989875

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

Agree to disagree i guess - seems harsh to put that judgement on a kid.

I'm not judging the kid's right to her opinion.  I'm judging the 16 year old going to her uncle and his wife with the sole intent to sow division and hatred of her father because she didn't get grandma's diamond.   That's petulance and not behavior to reward. 

If she handled it within the bounds of the family itself I'd consider something different and may even suggest that the dad consider a different action and propose with a different ring.  But that would not mean that the next step equals the ring going to the child now or anytime soon.  I'd be making it quite clear that her opinion could be taken into consideration but the ring isn't hers and should it go to her eventually it's going to be in a safe deposit box until that time. 

I don’t know- this seems a bit harsh. Ascribing motive (that her whole intent was to sow division, yikes) to an upset teenager who doesn’t sound like they have a mother around and maybe just talked to another family member when they were upset. 

Sounds like Jane tried to talk to her Dad and was still upset so she talked to someone else in her family. The Dad, Uncle, & Aunt are the adults here and if they’re pissed at each that’s on them. The teenager isn’t entitled to the ring that was given to the Dad, but to say she’s petulant and trying to sow hated because she didn’t get what she wants seems a bit much. 

levioosa

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

Agree to disagree i guess - seems harsh to put that judgement on a kid.

I'm not judging the kid's right to her opinion.  I'm judging the 16 year old going to her uncle and his wife with the sole intent to sow division and hatred of her father because she didn't get grandma's diamond.   That's petulance and not behavior to reward. 

If she handled it within the bounds of the family itself I'd consider something different and may even suggest that the dad consider a different action and propose with a different ring.  But that would not mean that the next step equals the ring going to the child now or anytime soon.  I'd be making it quite clear that her opinion could be taken into consideration but the ring isn't hers and should it go to her eventually it's going to be in a safe deposit box until that time. 

But…she’s sixteen. And I’m pretty sure most sixteen year olds don’t deal with big feelings and hurt and loss in the most mature way. I don’t know too many 16 year olds who are going to say “Father, I would like to request a meeting and discuss my hurt and feelings about grandmother’s wedding ring and see if we can negotiate about the rings course.” Of course they’re going to talk to other family members about it. They’re an average 16 year old. She’s not lashing out at Laura (so it seems in the letter) and she’s not being a pill at home. She was upset and told some adults she trusted about it, whether she had intentions of manipulation or not who can say. But I don’t think she did anything more out of pocket than the average teen. 

banana468

Casadena said:

banana468 said:

Casadena said:

Agree to disagree i guess - seems harsh to put that judgement on a kid.

I'm not judging the kid's right to her opinion.  I'm judging the 16 year old going to her uncle and his wife with the sole intent to sow division and hatred of her father because she didn't get grandma's diamond.   That's petulance and not behavior to reward. 

If she handled it within the bounds of the family itself I'd consider something different and may even suggest that the dad consider a different action and propose with a different ring.  But that would not mean that the next step equals the ring going to the child now or anytime soon.  I'd be making it quite clear that her opinion could be taken into consideration but the ring isn't hers and should it go to her eventually it's going to be in a safe deposit box until that time. 

SIB  If she's close to her uncle it makes sense that she confided her disappointment - sounds like uncle brought up to others in the family. I highly a doubt a 16 year old is purposely "sowing division and hatred of her father". Sounds like a disppointed and confused kid who just lost her grandma that she's very close to, is gaining a stepmom, and feels like her dad is not really understanding her feelings. 

Grandma died a year ago.  

Look I get that it's what she did - but I think she's out of line to cry outside the household with the reaction to her father's engagement is not to get a possession.   

Dad needs to dig deeper on this, do some soul searching and talk to the daughter about this (like she's possibly feeling like she's losing links to family) but that isn't done with a possession and he needs to convey that message because it's beyond unhealthy to tie such emotions to material possessions. 

levioosa

Damn banana. I’m 34 and when my grandma dies I’m going to be really sad even a year later. And I’m not a super sentimental person, but there are some things I would be bummed to see go to someone outside of the immediate family. I don’t think that makes someone shallow or “unhealthily attached to material possessions.”

STARMOON44

I think this is a really easy one. Buy a new ring. 

banana468

levioosa said:

Damn banana. I’m 34 and when my grandma dies I’m going to be really sad even a year later. And I’m not a super sentimental person, but there are some things I would be bummed to see go to someone outside of the immediate family. I don’t think that makes someone shallow or “unhealthily attached to material possessions.”

I've watched the surviving family members hold onto and cling to the possessions of the deceased in a way that divide it's horrible. 

It doesn't mean that the deceased shouldn't be honored and I hope my approach isn't conveyed that way.  But there can be such emotional claim to something that can't possibly be split, that has such additional value placed on it that there's no way that however it is used all can be pleased.

And when I see that, it makes me absolutely devastated that there's such a strong feeling of what is "owed", or surviving family members deeming that someone in the family wasn't "worthy enough" to have what items are given.
I'm saying this as the parent of Chiquita who was given her great grandmother's pearls because FIL received them as his mother's possessions were divided amongst the next of kin. There were major arguments in how the dividing of assets took place to the point that she fears FIL's sister trying to take them off her if she ever wears them to extended family gatherings because there's some premise that other grandchildren were closer to her.    The arguments and turmoil have created hurt feelings and fear in the next generation when the reality is that the item was FIL's to do with as he chose.      

In this case also, I think the ring IS staying in the family.  The FI has a conditional gift she's keeping once she becomes the wife of the LW.   

I do see the other side and apologize that my points are pretty harsh. I think there could be other ways the LW handles it if this is such a horrible situation in the family but I do not think he did a bad thing and think the criticism he's getting from his SIL is unwarranted.

Casadena

levioosa said:

Damn banana. I’m 34 and when my grandma dies I’m going to be really sad even a year later. And I’m not a super sentimental person, but there are some things I would be bummed to see go to someone outside of the immediate family. I don’t think that makes someone shallow or “unhealthily attached to material possessions.”

This 100%

VarunaTT

I guess I don't understand why the ring couldn't still be Jane's after father/step mother passed?  They're all family now, Jane would presumably be the oldest and it'd be from her maternal grandmother.  I don't think LW is an asshole at all, but he needs to have a real conversation with fiancee and with Jane to make a plan.  And Jane needs to accept it.  She's 16, she wouldn't (presumably) be getting that ring any time soon anyway and her proprosal also (presumably) wouldn't involve that ring.

Having gone through a similar situation involving wedding rings recently with my father's death and other items (remembering I have a weird family bush: my aunt asked my grandmother (mom) for my grandfather's (dad) wedding ring and I honestly though my grandmother (mom) was about to slap the sh!t out of her own daughter (my aunt)). I find it truly abhorrent how many family argments happen over material objects and it's distasteful.  I know that you can't bury expensive jewelry, but at this point I think they should just be sold and used to help pay for a funeral.

ei34

I know Reddit came up with the term being AH, so it’s how we have to say it.  I don’t think LW is an AH. I think it would’ve been nice for him to have given his daughter the ring. He is keeping it in the family though, it’s not like he sold it.  

I was 11, 11, and 18 when my first three grandparents died, I was close to all three and sad…and I had absolutely zero say in how any of their items (or anything else) was divided up.  I was 32 when my grandmother died, for the first time my siblings, cousins and I were offered to take a special item or two once my parents’ generation had.  So I think the 16yo daughter is entitled to her feelings (which are valid) without being entitled to the ring.