Switching services?

firemedicrr

Hey ladies,

I was just curious if any of your FIs/Hs/Friends have ever switched service branches? 

It's something my FI is considering doing when his reenlistment comes back up in 3 years because his current MOS hasn't promoted anyone for the last 2 years (gotta love the navy; overstaffed yet still accepting new recruits). Supposedly there's a considerable signon bonus for some services if you are switching from another service branch. Seems to me like the best thing to do would be to change MOS within your service, but I know that sometimes that's hard to do with the whole PTS/ERB thing...

Obviously, you have to be really careful what you agree to and have to know the details... I'm just curious if any of you know anyone who has done this and if so, what their reasoning was for it and if they ended up thinking it was a good decision, what they'd recommend asking a recruiter, etc. 

Thanks ladies

firsttimersluck

Stan may be your best bet on this kinda question. She knows these odds and ends things.
I know a coupe people that have switched branches, but I don't know how the process went or if they are glad they did... Sorry

BinxRose

Ugh, I have no advice, but I know what you mean. FI is Navy too, and will not be promoted because of how many there are, even though he's qualified to.

Zimsgirl

I haven't had experience with this but I know the Army is cutting 50,000 soldiers over the next 5 years since we're pulling out of Iraq

Clicky

firsttimersluck

EH.. we'll see if that honestly happens Zim. We are required to pull out by the end o fthis year because of George W. Bush, but We're not leaving Afghanistan.. so idk if that's a realistic number as of now.

I'm glad H's position in the Navy isn't affected by all this He promotes right at specific times no matter what, pretty much.
I'm sorry you guys are struggling with that

Irishcurls

I mean, attrition rates have plummeted for all services, since the civilian job fields are in the toilet. If no one gets out, there are no openings to promote into. So I would say, it may benefit him, but it may not....I don't have any real advice except make sure he is really well informed on all the options. 

LOLways

I think it's worth looking at from a perspective of job security.

He shouldn't tell his supervisor yet if his supervisor is the kind of guy to hold it against him, or even might be. Telling leadership you're leaving is a lightning-quick way to ensure you get rated at the bottom of the stack, no matter how good you are. And that can affect his app for whatever other branch he's applying to.

Zimsgirl

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:05f05cf6-004f-4829-9d7c-277705b65c02">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]EH.. we'll see if that honestly happens Zim. We are required to pull out by the end o fthis year because of George W. Bush, but We're not leaving Afghanistan.. so idk if that's a realistic number as of now. I'm glad H's position in the Navy isn't affected by all this :/ He promotes right at specific times no matter what, pretty much. I'm sorry you guys are struggling with that :(
Posted by firsttimersluck[/QUOTE]
Yeah it talks about one of the ways they'll do it would be by vountary and involuntary separations so I wonder if it'll affect FI's med board process

firemedicrr

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:c9c107a6-8026-4a82-b3fc-af9fc15261cf">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]I mean, attrition rates have plummeted for all services, since the civilian job fields are in the toilet. If no one gets out, there are no openings to promote into. So I would say, it may benefit him, but it may not....I don't have any real advice except make sure he is really well informed on all the options. 
Posted by Irishcurls[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>Yeah, so true. It's just a really sucky situation. </div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>FTL- yeah, that's why he really wanted to get picked up for STA21. He's 9 classes away from finishing his degree (he was in school for avionics before he enlisted) and he's kicking himself for not finishing prior to enlistment (given, he wasn't that close when he enlisted, he's worked on a lot of school since enlisting). I'm hoping that I can convince him to finish his degree before he needs to make a decision about what to do so that he can apply for OCS instead of having to go through STA21. Of course, he's dragging his feet bc the classes he has left are on subjects he hates. </div><div>
</div><div>It's just really crappy because he's done all the "optional" schools, has volunteered for pretty much every collateral duty he can do at his rate, he's been one of the top grads out of all the schools he's done (if not the top grad), and it just doesn't matter. He was the top pick out of his command for STA21 but he didn't have an admirals letter; the political BS kills me. </div>

firsttimersluck

applying to ocs would be a smart move... He will have a MUCH easier time promoting in the Navy if he goes that route, even though that will put him in a weird in-between area for a while.

LOLways

OCS might be kinda full right now too. They have a certain quota of prior enlisted folks that they like to pick up, and that's limited because (theoretically) an enlisted guy with 8 years time in service only needs to be an officer for 12 years to get to 20 years and retirement. The services want to get that good prior enlisted opinion in their officer corps, but they only want to plan for so many because the personnel folks have to try to plan out the service's manning 20 years from now (nearly impossible to do, but they try).

I agree that there's a lot of political BS involved in getting what you want in your job, and it's really dumb that it works that way, but sometimes being a great troop just isn't enough. You have to "play the game" a little bit in addition to being an outstanding troop. One doesn't have to be a complete ass-kisser, but you gotta work it a little. Like if your CO is big on volunteering (or your degree/ finances/ PT score), then get a little of that on your resume and make sure he knows about it.

sofiabrian

My DH transfered from the Air Force ot the Marine Corps. He did it a while back, but I don't know all the details of it. Of all the things he had hassles with, was that it took over a year for his leave days to transfer over. He is VERY happy with his decision. 

kmmssg

I feel pretty confident about the 50,000 draw down.  What I have seen regarding force structure changes leads me to believe it's pretty much a done deal.  While it will happen through attrition a lot of people are certainly stalled at their current ranks.  It should not have any affect on med boards.

With a 50 thousand drop I'm sure our bonuses will drop dramatically.  I've already seen it on our side of the house and I am the bonus manager.  I work next to GI Bill, Federal Tuition Assistance, Kicker, and Student Loan Repayment.  They are all huge contributors to retention and they are all getting whacked substantially.
 

SamiJoeB

I only knew one person who had switched branches, he was a class ahead of me in A School and had switched from the Army.  I don't know any of the specifics except that he was super hardcore and he lost some rank.  He got promoted to E4 when he graduated A School, but I think he had been an E5 in the Army... maybe..

I agree, I would PM Stan and ask her about it.. she's a fountain of military knowledge.

Danidawn20

I know my FI wanted to change branches but then some stuff came up and they wouldn't let him. Idk know all the details (He wasn't able to tell me) but I know it i a bit of a proccess

KendallR10

I know the air force is taking prior service. H wanted to switch but when I told him that I would not be moving with him until I have my degree, he did some more thinking about it. He has decided not to, at least for now.

SamiJoeB

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:d26ab988-20d0-4b7a-bc18-66a2be96276c">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]I know the air force is taking prior service. H wanted to switch but when I told him that I would not be moving with him until I have my degree, he did some more thinking about it. He has decided not to, at least for now.
Posted by KendallR10[/QUOTE]

How supportive of you Kendall.

Zimsgirl

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:d26ab988-20d0-4b7a-bc18-66a2be96276c">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]I know the air force is taking prior service. H wanted to switch but when I told him that I would not be moving with him until I have my degree, he did some more thinking about it. He has decided not to, at least for now.
Posted by KendallR10[/QUOTE]
Why couldn't you just transfer?

kyrgyzstan

I would tell him to try to lat move in the Navy before going to another branch. H's old MOS is being phased out, so when he reenlisted, he had to choose something else. The job he is in now is very similar (same MOS field, different specialty), but was very competitive. He was not willing to go to the replacement job for his old job, so he kept fighting for what he has now. It took forever. Every branch is full up and taking their best choices. Have him talk to a career planner (if they have them in the Navy), and if he does try to switch branches, make very sure he talks to a Prior Service Recruiter as opposed to a regular one. Also, I really quibble with the idea that degree = O. Not everyone is meant to be an O, just like not everyone is meant to be a service member. Becoming an O is and should be extremely competitive, because we're talking about the honor and responsibility of leading others. I hate when people tell me to be an O because I have a degree. Tell me to be an O because I love and would lay down my life for the enlisted service member. Tell me to be an O because I already posess the bearing and leadership abilities to be an O. Not because I got a degree that anyone can get if they put their minds to it. And I definitely should not have applied to be an O until now. If I was not motivated enough to get my butt in gear back when I only had boring classes to take (and there was a point I was like this), I was not deserving enough to be an O, and I was told as much by an Andy Rooney type Captain. He was right. This was not directed at anyone in this thread specifically, just an overall mentality that degrees are enough to qualify to be an O.  

Also, they don't promote but are still accepting new recruits because the military is a pyramid. This is not a dumb thing, it's how all jobs work. 

I am not a fountain of knowledge about switching branches because the idea is strange to me. Not that it's a bad thing, but I can't imagine wanting to do it in my theoretical future. All I know about it is that it's difficult and people who switch to the Marine Corps have to redo Boot Camp, but Marines switching do not have to. 

ETA: This is not me admitting Kendall is not a liar (where's my photo?!), but I would not and did not follow H when he moved because my degree mattered a lot to me. That =/= me being unsupportive, it = me making darn sure I was able to become who I wanted.

Irishcurls

I feel like I've defended Kendall twice lately but I would never have moved for my husband before I finished school. Granted, I never would have had a husband before I finished school. 

ETA: Oops, didn't read the entire thread. Ditto Stan. 

ggirl2001

I also wouldn't have moved with H if I wasn't done with school, butttttt I wouldn't have discouraged him if that's what he really wanted to do. I would work through the long distance. I THINK that's what rubbed me the wrong way. I'm all for finishing up school, especially if you like the program you are at, but don't discourage someone else from following their goals. I think the other part wrong with it is that Kendall isn't in school yet, so its basically a weird argument to make if you aren't even going to school. 

Irishcurls

Gg, I definitely agree with you on supporting each others dreams. Luckily, I don't plan to be in this situation, as we're both pretty clear on our life's path for the next few years. It should be a give and take, in everything, not just this--I had very strong influence over H's most recent dream sheet because of my career field, but also acquiesced to a bunch of places I "don't want to go" but could live with because that's where his need would be, kwim? Compromise!!!

But also, Kendall tbh, aren't you so up in the air with school right now anyway?? Seems like an ok time to make a switch...

divinemsbee

FI has talked about it, he's up to be re-classed at the end of this month, and has an excellent chance of everything going through, but if he wasn't, he's talking about switching, maybe to try to go into the Navy. It's been purely theoretical talk, so I have no idea what goes into it.

firemedicrr

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:aa370543-8117-4f00-a5d2-81bd97664ad3">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]I would tell him to try to lat move in the Navy before going to another branch. H's old MOS is being phased out, so when he reenlisted, he had to choose something else. The job he is in now is very similar (same MOS field, different specialty), but was very competitive. He was not willing to go to the replacement job for his old job, so he kept fighting for what he has now. It took forever. Every branch is full up and taking their best choices. Have him talk to a career planner (if they have them in the Navy), and if he does try to switch branches, make very sure he talks to a Prior Service Recruiter as opposed to a regular one. Also, I really quibble with the idea that degree = O. Not everyone is meant to be an O, just like not everyone is meant to be a service member. Becoming an O is and should be extremely competitive, because we're talking about the honor and responsibility of leading others. I hate when people tell me to be an O because I have a degree. Tell me to be an O because I love and would lay down my life for the enlisted service member. Tell me to be an O because I already posess the bearing and leadership abilities to be an O. Not because I got a degree that anyone can get if they put their minds to it. And I definitely should not have applied to be an O until now. If I was not motivated enough to get my butt in gear back when I only had boring classes to take (and there was a point I was like this), I was not deserving enough to be an O, and I was told as much by an Andy Rooney type Captain. He was right. This was not directed at anyone in this thread specifically, just an overall mentality that degrees are enough to qualify to be an O.   Also, they don't promote but are still accepting new recruits because the military is a pyramid. This is not a dumb thing, it's how all jobs work.  I am not a fountain of knowledge about switching branches because the idea is strange to me. Not that it's a bad thing, but I can't imagine wanting to do it in my theoretical future. All I know about it is that it's difficult and people who switch to the Marine Corps have to redo Boot Camp, but Marines switching do not have to.  ETA: This is not me admitting Kendall is not a liar (where's my photo?!), but I would not and did not follow H when he moved because my degree mattered a lot to me. That =/= me being unsupportive, it = me making darn sure I was able to become who I wanted.
Posted by WishIcouldbeinthe'stan[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I agree with what you're saying. I don't believe just having a degree means you should be an O; It's just something that he wants to do and he's been really motivated about everything that he needs to do to be one, is a good leader, his chief has pulled him aside after several different things and asked him about it, etc. He regrets that he hasn't finished school already, but honestly (this is me talking) he has had a lot going on and it's probably a good thing that he wasn't trying to finish up his classes with so much going on (recent deployments, reenlistment, change of commands, his dad has cancer, so on) which also makes it a good thing that he's not an O right now.</div><div>
</div><div>I definitely am more comfortable with him staying within the Navy and just switching MOS's (I am not at all familiar with the ins and outs of other branches); just curious as to other's opinions. Always interesting to hear about other's experiences when it comes to kind of obscure things within the mil.</div><div>
</div><div>edit: spelling</div><div>

</div>

kyrgyzstan

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:f4590e04-9af0-4279-968a-7a7e03e674f7">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Switching services? : I agree with what you're saying. I don't believe just having a degree means you should be an O; It's just something that he wants to do and he's been really motivated about everything that he needs to do to be one, is a good leader, his chief has pulled him aside after several different things and asked him about it, etc. He regrets that he hasn't finished school already, but honestly (this is me talking) he has had a lot going on and it's probably a good thing that he wasn't trying to finish up his classes with so much going on (recent deployments, reenlistment, change of commands, his dad has cancer, so on) which also makes it a good thing that he's not an O right now. I definitely am more comfortable with him staying within the Navy and just switching MOS's (I am not at all familiar with the ins and outs of other branches); just curious as to other's opinions. Always interesting to hear about other's experiences when it comes to kind of obscure things within the mil. edit: spelling
Posted by firemedicrr[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Gotcha. H is a flyer, and despite his best intentions, he just can't take an inroom class because his flight schedule varies so much. It's a bummer, because he hates online classes (and I agree). 

</div>

SamiJoeB

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:40f0b506-ca86-4997-8330-9365f13f12ed">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]I also wouldn't have moved with H if I wasn't done with school, butttttt I wouldn't have discouraged him if that's what he really wanted to do. I would work through the long distance. <strong>I THINK that's what rubbed me the wrong way. I'm all for finishing up school, especially if you like the program you are at, but don't discourage someone else from following their goals. I think the other part wrong with it is that Kendall isn't in school yet, so its basically a weird argument to make if you aren't even going to school. </strong>
Posted by ggirl2001[/QUOTE]

I know I'm really late in this, but I felt like I needed to clarify..
Basically the bolded part of what GG said is all that I meant when I said that that was unsupportive.. I mean, I'm not fully moving when H comes back to the states, but it's because he's coming back in the middle of a semester. Financially, and Logistically, it just doesn't make sense for me to move with H yet.  I will after I finish the spring semester.  I could understand being hesitant to move when you're close to finishing a degree, or even if it's a very specialized program, but Kendall isn't even in school, so that's not really a valid arguement.. that IMO, is being unsupportive and selfish.  My H wanted to lat move and I support that, he's going for his dream MOS and even though it makes me very nervous, I'm supporting that dream of his.  He put NC on his dream sheet not because he's always wanted to be stationed in Jacksonville, NC (From what I've heard from other wives, No one does) but because I was already here and in school and have a job, and he wanted to give me the best opportunity to finish school, and keep myself busy while he's training.  It's all about the compromise.  I could have flat out said "Nope. I don't support you doing this lat-move and if you do, I'm done" and he could have done the same, but we'd be on our way, if not already divorced, because once you start roadblocking your SO's dreams... where does it stop? (FTR, I mean realistic dreams.. If H said I want to bungee jump without the bungee.. obviously that's not something I would support.)

melbelle24

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:ac787019-2b93-464b-9cf2-6e1fc47eb782">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Switching services? : I know I'm really late in this, but I felt like I needed to clarify.. Basically the bolded part of what GG said is all that I meant when I said that that was unsupportive.. I mean, I'm not fully moving when H comes back to the states, but it's because he's coming back in the middle of a semester. Financially, and Logistically, it just doesn't make sense for me to move with H yet.  I will after I finish the spring semester.  I could understand being hesitant to move when you're close to finishing a degree, or even if it's a very specialized program, but Kendall isn't even in school, so that's not really a valid arguement.. that IMO, is being unsupportive and selfish.  My H wanted to lat move and I support that, he's going for his dream MOS and even though it makes me very nervous, I'm supporting that dream of his.  He put NC on his dream sheet not because he's always wanted to be stationed in Jacksonville, NC (From what I've heard from other wives, No one does) but because I was already here and in school and have a job, and he wanted to give me the best opportunity to finish school, and keep myself busy while he's training. <strong> It's all about the compromise.  I could have flat out said "Nope. I don't support you doing this lat-move and if you do, I'm done" and he could have done the same, but we'd be on our way, if not already divorced, because once you start roadblocking your SO's dreams... where does it stop? (FTR, I mean realistic dreams.. If H said I want to bungee jump without the bungee.. obviously that's not something I would support.)</strong>
Posted by SamiJoeB[/QUOTE]
Very well said. I couldn't agree more, especially with the bolded part.

KendallR10

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:4b3f8586-f1f5-4521-a687-b2f03706e3d9">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Switching services? : Why couldn't you just transfer?
Posted by Zimsgirl[/QUOTE]
We have 2 of the best business schools in the country. I wouldn't leave that behind for H to go and join the AF because someone else told him to

KendallR10

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:522f4c67-859d-4240-b13f-04dbbc9030a9">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]Gg, I definitely agree with you on supporting each others dreams. Luckily, I don't plan to be in this situation, as we're both pretty clear on our life's path for the next few years. It should be a give and take, in everything, not just this--I had very strong influence over H's most recent dream sheet because of my career field, but also acquiesced to a bunch of places I "don't want to go" but could live with because that's where his need would be, kwim? Compromise!!! <strong>But also, Kendall tbh, aren't you so up in the air with school right now anyway?? Seems like an ok time to make a switch...</strong>
Posted by Irishcurls[/QUOTE]
Nope. I have already signed up for school and can register for classes on the 22nd. I've sat down with an advisor and I have the next 3-4 years of school planned out. I know I'm going the business route but I haven't decided if I want to go the Business law route

KendallR10

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:ac787019-2b93-464b-9cf2-6e1fc47eb782">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Switching services? : I know I'm really late in this, but I felt like I needed to clarify.. Basically the bolded part of what GG said is all that I meant when I said that that was unsupportive.. I mean, I'm not fully moving when H comes back to the states, but it's because he's coming back in the middle of a semester. Financially, and Logistically, it just doesn't make sense for me to move with H yet.  I will after I finish the spring semester.  I could understand being hesitant to move when you're close to finishing a degree, or even if it's a very specialized program, but Kendall isn't even in school, so that's not really a valid arguement.. t<strong>hat IMO, is being unsupportive and selfish</strong>.  My H wanted to lat move and I support that, he's going for his dream MOS and even though it makes me very nervous, I'm supporting that dream of his.  He put NC on his dream sheet not because he's always wanted to be stationed in Jacksonville, NC (From what I've heard from other wives, No one does) but because I was already here and in school and have a job, and he wanted to give me the best opportunity to finish school, and keep myself busy while he's training.  It's all about the compromise.  I could have flat out said "Nope. I don't support you doing this lat-move and if you do, I'm done" and he could have done the same, but we'd be on our way, if not already divorced, because once you start roadblocking your SO's dreams... where does it stop? (FTR, I mean realistic dreams.. If H said I want to bungee jump without the bungee.. obviously that's not something I would support.)
Posted by SamiJoeB[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I don't want him to join because I want him to stay guard so he can go to school and get a degree. I would much rather support something that he has wanted to do since HS than support a decision made because of money

</div>

melbelle24

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_switching-services?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:4415de85-5dac-423a-9b42-bfaf8ad4e8f2Post:669681df-18c5-402e-93be-510bfce85fee">Re: Switching services?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Switching services? : I don't want him to join because I want him to stay guard so he can go to school and get a degree. I would much rather support something that he has wanted to do since HS than support a decision made because of money
Posted by KendallR10[/QUOTE]
What if he changed his mind about what he wants? It happens. Heck, it happened to my FI, he started off thinking he wanted to do the Guard and go to college, and after a semester, he realized he wasn't ready for it yet and went AD Marines instead. I'm not saying you specifically are doing this, but just be careful that you (general you) don't confuse what YOU want him to do with what HE wants to do. Part of a healthy relationship is compromising and letting somebody do what's best for them, even when you don't like it.