Is the Marine Corps tattoo MARADMIN as vague as I think it is? **Stan and Cal**

SamiJoeB

So I mentioned before H got a new tattoo while on det.  I was less than pleased, still am whenever it's mentioned.  He checked with the OIC and he okayed it so he got it.  It's a quarter sleeve/band (it could be either really) so from his shoulder to like halfway to his elbow, barely visible when he has a t-shirt on.  One of his higher ups (Enlisted, a Master Guns I believe) is totally trying to crucify H for this tattoo.  He's trying to get a page 11 put in his service record for failing to comply with a MARADMIN (or whatever..).  My H is a pretty stand up Marine, and I don't just say that because he's my H.  He gets his haircuts weekly, knows uniform regs by heart, PT's both with the command, and on his own, anything a Marine should do, he does.  Tonight was the first I've heard about all the crap about the tattoo, and the first time I've ever heard him be down about being in the MC.  It really broke my heart and has led to my current insomnia..

So, I've read and re-read the actual MARADMIN <clicky (this totally made me miss AD, I used to write these and play in the message traffic all day long!!) and IMO it's kind of a broad interpretation.  His tattoo is not visible in any uniform other than PT and even then it's just barely visible (we skyped and he put his pt uniform on and moved around and pantomimed running, push-ups, and pull ups, and I could barely see it at all).  He has to go and see the CO, and he'll find out if he gets the page 11 or not.  My question to you Stan, with your vast knowledge of MC fun facts, & C, with your MC JAG Officer FI, does this seem right? or fair at all? I even went through the message and bold and highlighted the parts that apply and he printed it out so he can take it with him when he meets with the CO...  but it seems to me that the message is at least somewhat up for interpretation by the CO.  H's never been in trouble, promoted fast, done well on his PFT and CFT's, does all his MCI's, so I'm just struggling with the fact that this tattoo is apparently such a huge deal!  I could understand if it were offensive, or sexist, or racist, but it's a tribal tattoo so it's mostly just black squiggles (Sorry.. I know they aren't squiggles.. but I'm frustrated).  It has a Sun God, but I mean.. how is that offensive, sexist or racist?!  They(really it's just the Master Guns) are mostly up in arms about the size of it..  Any advice ladies? Or any different interpretations of that message? 

kyrgyzstan

Oh love, I truly hate to say this, because I love you, but the policy outlined in 3B(5) does not seem vague at all. I'm bummed out for you, and the person who told him to go ahead was either misunderstanding or an idiot. Your H needs to go see a JAG ASAP. That's what they are there for, if any adverse action is being taken, he needs to have someone in his corner, even if he is in violation. TBH, I'm surprised he got it if he's trying to lat move where he is.

LetsHikeToday

I'm not knowledgable on this stuff at all but I have a question. If an OIC approved it, how does another person not approve it? I would assume if someone higher up approved it then it would be fine. How does that work?

calindi

I dunno, the fact that it is visible at all is worrisome. FI was adamant that his tattoo not be visible at all in any uniform. Does he have it written down that he got it approved, or is that OIC willing to speak on his behalf and say he told him he could? Both of those things would help, I'm sure. I'll ask FI when he gets back. He also has a shoulder tattoo, but it's an EGA and you can never see it except shirtless or sleeveless. ETA - it's a quarter, and he's E, so that seems okay. The fact that it is visible is what is worrisome. It all depends on the CO and how strict he views the rules on that. Sorry, Sami, I know that isn't much help. ETA 2: just spoke with FI, and he says that if he is standing at parade rest and attention in his PT gear and it isn't visible, he should be fine. Obviously the sleeve will droop while doing pull ups and such. But if it is at all visible while at parade rest or attention, he could be passed for promotions and such going forward unless he removes it or the part that is visible. Sorry!!!

SamiJoeB

The OIC that "approved" it, is a younger OIC.  He's been trying to "shut this BS down" according to H, actually pretty much all the O's have.  H said he saw the routed paper and like all the enlisted were like "Page 11." and all the O's were like "Umm.. really?! This is a huge waste of time, don't we have anything better to do?"

He has another tattoo on his other arm just on the inside and it's the same way, not visible in any uniform..  Ugh, the whole thing just pisses me off and it's stressing me out!!  Stan-I re-read it like 14 times last night and was all like "what?!", but then this morning, I was like "ohhhhhhhh that makes sense" I guess that's what some sleep will do for ya!!

I knew he had wanted this tattoo, but I'm with you Stan, I was surprised he got it while he's trying to lat move.  aaannndd if I may stop being the supportive wife for a moment:  I TOLD HIM THAT TATTOO WAS A BAD IDEA!!!!!!!!! /end rant.  I told him he needed to go talk to a JAG and he's resistant to doing that which I really don't understand...

kara811

I don't know much about the MC, is page 11 kind of like NJP, or not as bad? Either way, I hope your H will be okay Sami. Update us! 

Lots of good vibes to you and him today!!!

crownsuperstar

I have to admit that I don't know any of the MC rules.  I just wanted to give you some support and good vibes out to your H. 

calindi

Sorry he's going through this!  Definitely encourage him to talk to a JAG - FI also says he should definitely go talk to a JAG on base (he can't give him any advice because a) he's not a licensed lawyer yet and b) it would be inappropriate to give advice when he's not the one authorized for that base).  They'll be able to help him create a letter or help him to learn how to present his case.

Basically, there's a few issues here:

1)  It says it needs to be "less than a quarter the length of the (arm)", so have him measure his whole arm, and take pictures with the measuring tape for documentation.  He should know exactly how long his arm is, and exactly what percentage of his arm it covers.  If it's less than 25%, then he should be fine.  If it's more, he screwed up and got it too big.  Technically it says 1/4 visible while in PT gear, but another part says that it cannot be visible.  I believe these are for grandfathered in tattoos, but it's still good to prove it isn't even 25% of his arm.

2)  If it's visible in PT gear.  You say it's "barely visible" which is still visible.  However, if it's only visible while doing push-ups or pull-ups or running, that's normal - any tattoo even on the upper shoulder would show at some point a little.  However, if he's at parade rest or standing at attention and it's NOT visible, then he should be able to argue that it fits the MARADMIN.

You've already said it's not offensive, and his OIC okay'd it, which should be in his favor.  The JAG would likely get statements from the OIC and have him submit paperwork saying he authorized it. 

He never wants to go Mustang, right?  Because if the band is greater than 2", it's really unlike he'd ever be able to go Officer.

Irishcurls

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_marine-corps-tattoo-maradmin-vague-think-stan-cal?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:892f91e8-b493-41bc-b997-7743eef8dd4bPost:1b62b8b1-198b-46de-a40a-98f32fa05670">Re: Is the Marine Corps tattoo MARADMIN as vague as I think it is? **Stan and Cal**</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't know much about the MC, is page 11 kind of like NJP, or not as bad? Either way, I hope your H will be okay Sami. Update us!  Lots of good vibes to you and him today!!!
Posted by kara811[/QUOTE]
Ditto all this, I know nothing about the MC, but I assume it's like a page 7 in the CG? Like a write up that goes in their record? Realllllly hope it works out Sami!!!

calindi

Page 11s are "Administrative Remarks".  They're not as serious as an NJP, but it can affect his ability to get promoted, make lateral moves, basically be a monkey on his back.  But it's all at the discretion of the person reading them, so if he gets a Page 11 for his tattoo, then it depends entirely on the person who is reading his file to decide if they think it matters in regards to what they are considering him for at the time.

iluvmytxrgr

In general, Spec Ops and SF units have obsessions with tattoos.  They are covered in them.  Full sleves are not uncommon.  I don't think it will hurt him.  If you can't see it at parade rest, at the PoA or while saluting, I don't think it will be a big deal.  Of course, I'm not a Marine. 

calindi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_marine-corps-tattoo-maradmin-vague-think-stan-cal?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:13Discussion:892f91e8-b493-41bc-b997-7743eef8dd4bPost:b270fd0c-b36a-4205-81f9-f3be37e763d8">Re: Is the Marine Corps tattoo MARADMIN as vague as I think it is? **Stan and Cal**</a>:
[QUOTE]In general, Spec Ops and SF units have obsessions with tattoos.  They are covered in them.  Full sleves are not uncommon.  I don't think it will hurt him.  If you can't see it at parade rest, at the PoA or while saluting, I don't think it will be a big deal.  Of course, I'm not a Marine. 
Posted by iluvmytxrgr[/QUOTE]

And the Marines, conversely, have an institutional obsession with minimizing tattoos.  Individuals love them, but it's definitely a major negative in the USMC.  FI was told in no uncertain terms that if he ever wanted a tattoo, he should get it before TBS because it will be marked on his forms during his health inspection, rather than having it found out later.

divinemsbee

Oh Sami, I don't know much about this, but that sucks, and I would totally be in your position of trying to be supportive and saying "I told you so" in my head. From what everyone has said, I agree that he should see a JAG, and I'll admit I kind of don't understand how one person in charge can OK it, but then other people can undo that. I hope everything works out. I totally get him not wanting to do anything because everyone else is saying it's silly, but better he be prepared if something does start to go down.

ggirl2001

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_military-brides_marine-corps-tattoo-maradmin-vague-think-stan-cal?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:13Discussion:892f91e8-b493-41bc-b997-7743eef8dd4bPost:35540f65-e2b2-43ed-ae97-0090857a5d62">Re: Is the Marine Corps tattoo MARADMIN as vague as I think it is? **Stan and Cal**</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh Sami, I don't know much about this, but that sucks, and I would totally be in your position of trying to be supportive and saying "I told you so" in my head. From what everyone has said, I agree that he should see a JAG, and I'll admit I kind of don't understand how one person in charge can OK it, but then other people can undo that. I hope everything works out. I totally get him not wanting to do anything because everyone else is saying it's silly, but better he be prepared if something does start to go down.
Posted by divinemsbee[/QUOTE]

Eh I can understand how one person can ok it and then it gets changed. That happens anywhere in life really. My h got his black belt even though he is an e3 and someone in admin in his squadron tried to say he couldn't have it. Not the same thing here obviously but weird things happen. Sami-I probably would have said I told you so at least once to him and then supported him haha.

ggirl2001

Also, although i don't work in the military, it really does happen at any job. At my last job, I would literally have 3 different supervisors tell me 3 different interprations of the same situation and what I should do. Then I would do one of them, and be told I was wrong.

I was often confused at work lol.

Obviously, this should be better organized, and I feel bad for Sami's H, but I can totally get how it can happen. The Marine Corps is still an organization and still has rules or regulations that people interpret in different ways despite how clear cut they make them.