What's at risk in the abortion "debate"

_Fenton

[url]http://www.esquire.com/features/abortion-doctor-warren-hern-0909[/url]

jbloom

Great link Fent

NM_Jana

Wow.  Great read, thanks for sharing.

pdxmouse

Thank you. Do you think getting this info out there has a chance of waking people up? I'm hopeful, so I repeat it wherever I can, but some days I just want to scream/cry/rend my garments because I can't believe that people find this information surprising.

Irishgrl417

Thanks for posting that. My opinions on the matter spit in the face of my Catholic school & church going upbringing. I'd be on the hippo crate if I didn't say I'm pro-choice even if it's mostly in the closet around the family.  I don't judge women who have early abortions because I know that circumstances sometimes aren't the best and I don't believe it's an easy decision to make. Unless of course some teenager is on abortion #4 and they look at it as birth control, then I might judge. I also recognize the horrific consequences women and their families would face if people like Dr. Hern weren't there to help later in pregnancy and don't judge them either.But I admit I'm feeling a bit hypocritical lately. A friend's SIL is known to be BSC but the latest BSC thing she's said agitated me to no end. They announced to my friend's/her H's parents that they want to have a baby. But they only want 1 and she's always wanted a girl, and doesn't think she could handle a boy. So they're consulting someone and trying all these natural things to ensure they have a girl. But, if she should happen to get pregnant with a boy their plan is to abort. Putting aside logistical questions, I am blown away that not only they have come up with this plan but they shared it with family and were a bit surprised it was met with negativity. So do I belong on the giant Hippo Crate for wanting to slap this woman?

Irishgrl417

Or is it okay to want to slap her because she's the type of case that the anti-abortion people would use to support their arguments?

pdxmouse

There's a difference between morally judging someone and making decisions for them. Part of my pro-choice and pro-abortion* outlook takes into consideration that some women will make some decisions differently than I would. I think that's their right, just like it's their right to do all sorts of stupid, ignorant or careless things that I dislike. If you were to say you're pro-choice but you wanted a law that wouldn't allow your friend to get an abortion because you disagree with her reasoning after asking you how that's supposed to work I'd put you in the Hippo Crate. *I've decided I'm really both- I think abortion is a good thing to have as an option, but I also want women to have support regardless of which way they choose

Irishgrl417

Well said, Mouse. I just may have to borrow some of that at some point. I'm glad I have the choice so I don't begrudge her of it. But I guess I can't wrap my head around the idea that a married couple who is financially secure and wanting a child would abort an otherwise healthy fetus because she's dreamed of tea parties and playing Barbies with a daughter ever since she got her first doll.

pdxmouse

I'm also wondering if your friend has thought this out. You usually don't find out the sex until 18-20 weeks along. An abortion in the 2nd tri is a lot more complicated- it's usually a 2 day procedure and can be uncomfortable or painful. Not to mention she'll probably be showing, have gone through morning sickness, etc.

Irishgrl417

Yeah, that was what I was referring to when I mentioned logistical questions. I doubt they've thought it through since she is used to getting her way.I'm not directly friends with the girl, we're friends with her BIL. I only met her a few times and she's beyond nuts. Her H was a friend of my H's but apparently she hasn't allowed him to accept Bob's FB friend request. Probably because we're friends with the evil BIL.

_Fenton

I don't know if people who are anti-choice will think differently after reading this.  Could be just preaching to the choir.As for elective abortions for gender, you can think something should be legally while absolutely judging and and being appalled.  Think KKK rallies.  I don't think there should be any law against them, even though they make me sick.

_Fenton

err, first legally=legal

pdxmouse

Well, Andrew Sullivan changed his stance. So I'm guessing some people might.

_Fenton

Well Sullivan had more of an across-the-board ideological revolution. Not many people are open to that much change.

pdxmouse

Hmm, I haven't kept up with Sully. Did he go all feminist or something? Because even as a moderate Obama supporter he was anti-abortion before he started the "It's So Personal" series.

jens_a_ten

Really insightful article. Thanks. This subject is so upsetting, I always feel huge knots in my stomach even thinking about it. I find it hard to articulate myself properly in discussions of this, because thoughts just race through my mind nonstop. I really hope that articles like this might change at least a few opinions. There are so many people who have just been fed the one-sided, oversimplified rhetoric. Maybe beginning to understand the complexity behind this will open some minds.

KristenBtobe

I think if she has amnio to check for Tay Sachs etc. around 15 weeks they can tell you the gender then. Not that I'm condoning that kind of idiotic behavior.

_Fenton

Mouse, I was just talking about his broader shift from supporting Rs to being completely turned off by the republican party, despite still being vaguely fiscally conservative.  I didn't think I'd ever read anything of his that was anti-choice.  Maybe anti-abortion but pro-choice, which like I stated above is totally possible.But back to the article, I really appreciated the gruesome reality of staff seeing the dismembered bodies and the acknowledgment that there is an element of destruction in the process.  Even if you are aborting a fetus without kidneys that will surely die, the doctor still has to destroy something that has some kind of life in it at the moment.  Maybe not human, but not inanimate.  You just rarely think about how hard it can be for the doctors....not the death threats, but their actual job.

_Fenton

that sounds odd.  Surely a fetus is human, but maybe yet not A human.  I think there's a difference.

FallinAgain

I consider myself pro-choice, but sometimes conversations on this board make me question whether I am.  I think 1st trimester abortions shold be legal in all cases.  I'm ok with restricting abortion after the 1st to those in cases of fetal deformaties and life and health (including mental) of the mother.   I realize it would be incredibly difficult to craft and enforce such restrictions and it opens a lot of questions.  At the same time, the woman contemplating aborting a healthy fetus b/c it has the wrong sex organs makes me sick and I think she's a poor excuse for a human.

wingedbride

i am riding in fallin's vagina wagon.

KristenBtobe

Fallin is so wise. Her uterus needs to be put into commission ASAP.

mashedpotato

i am riding in fallin's vagina wagonI'm sure there's room for me! 

wingedbride

are you calling fallin a whore?

mashedpotato

yes, I am.   of course I was kidding.

wingedbride

now i cannot tell if you realize i was joking.

mashedpotato

yes, I just wanted to make sure others knew I was kidding.

Novemberrocks

Thanks for posting this Fenton.  I get so angry about this stuff.  It's so interesting to me, but the abortion issue has become so much more important to me since getting pregnant.  I've always considered myself 'pro-choice' but it hits closer to home now - I deeply value the freedom I have to make decisions about my body and what is going on inside of it.   I don't think that abortion is ever a 'good' choice, per se.  I think it's a difficult choice.  I think it's a necessary choice.  But these things don't = 'good' in my book. I guess it just comes down to my belief that while a woman can be tremendously relieved about an abortion, I also think that she probably would have been happier had she never been faced with having to make that choice (ie, had she had better access to contraception and education about it, had the contraception not failed, had she been more empowered to control her own sexuality, had the fetus been healthy, etc, etc, etc), .  That said, I support any woman's right to make that choice for herself.

FallinAgain

My vagina is feeling a little crowded today.

mashedpotato

It's very cozy, fallin.

Meegs10.13.06

Great article. I think this one was also posted here, but I thought I would repost: [url]http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion[/url]  I don't know how anyone can read her story and not be touched.