Toodles, Whole Foods

wingedbride

they're the new 4th meal, moo.mouse, i am actually suprised on your stance on this. You are so opposed to government, etc. being involved in choices on your body when it relates to women reproductive rights and it doesn't jibe with this viewpoint for me.

jbloom

I guess what bothers me is the Whole (hehe) ranting against Socialism, as if people trying to better society as a group or looking out for one another in any way is a bad thing.Granted, I do believe that mostly people should do their best to take care of themselves and look out for their own best interests, but what's wrong with taking that spirit and applying it to the larger group?As has been pointed out umpteen times before, we in the U.S. enjoy a lot of socialist things -- libraries, firefighters, police, etc.

BobLoblaw

but it's cheap stuff wrought with high fructose corn syrup and the rest of the baddie chemical compoundsAgain, I wasn't disputing that at all but I'd rather buy my corn and apples from the farmer's market or (OHGODNO) my supermarket and save a few bucks. Let's face it, plenty of people shop at WF because it's a status thing.

FallinAgain

Oh, I wouldn't deny your right to eat it, if you think uranium covered razor blades or trepanation is the way to go that's fine. I just don't think companies should be allowed to market it to you and profit from it. There's a big difference there. So, the government bans WF from selling uranium covered razor blades but doesn't ban me from eating them??

CaptainSerious

***I think WFM blocking unions and, say, Walmart blocking unions are two totally different things. I've known a lot of WFM employees and I can't think of one who has complained of mistreatment.***I think it's fine to boycott stores based on union policies (although being from a small rural town where Wal-Mart offers really good jobs, I have a different opinion on the evil empire) and human rights. I’m with Fallin here.  I know a ton of people who are, or have at one point been, employed by Wal-mart in Alabama, and none of them have anything bad to say about the company.  They are, in fact, one of the highest paying employers in the area.  Wal-Mart gets a lot of bad press about blocking unions because the unions spend a lot of money championing their cause and pay a lot of individuals to claim they were abused by the company.  And yet, a very small percentage of the vocal protestors quit and went to work for someone else.and it may be silly, but lately the escalation of rage from some people who oppose health care has been frankly disturbing. didn't some guy just bring a gun and a sign saying "It's time to water the tree of liberty" to an obama town hall meeting, insinuating that assassination of the president is just aces? Did he get arrested? no, he got a lot of airtime on all the cable political shows though.in relation to that, deciding not to shop at an overpriced specialty grocery store after the owner publicly aligned himself with that side of the sand line isn't that mochable.Isn’t this like saying that if a person is not pro-choice they must be a doctor-killer?  I’m really not sure I understand how a person must be associated with the extreme if he suggests an alternate or unpopular view.As for the raw milk, I’m in Winged and Fallin’s camp of personal responsibility.  And mouse, by saying companies shouldn’t be able to market it, isn’t that de-facto prohibition?  Where is a person who has educated themselves on the subject and wishes to give it to their children supposed to get it if it’s not readily available?

ftnups

Seriously? WTF grocery shops anywhere for the status or for a warm fuzzy feeling? Who are these people? I live in the WF headquarters town and I hang around lots of rich people. I have never once heard anyone bragging or even talking at all about shopping at Whole Foods. bloom, your post was a little vague. Are you referring to the raw milk debate or the Mackey column?  

pdxmouse

I drew my line above. As for: Should stores ban selling cigs or alcohol to pregnant women because smoking is bad for them? I don't think one group should be barred access that's open to everybody else. It'd be like in your example above banning raw milk to people without internet access because they wouldn't have the resources to educate themselves. Should stores stop advertising sugared "juice" for kids because they may have stupid parents that allow them to drink it? I don't think it should be labeled juice at a certain point, but I also don't think sugar water puts people in the hospital either. For that matter I've always been a bit fuzzy on why cigarettes are legal. I don't know that I care enough to make an effort to ban them, I just don't understand the logic of allowing a product which if used properly will cause addiction and death when so many other substances that have more benefits are kept out of consumer hands.

Novemberrocks

I wasn't at all aware of the whole raw milk issue.  Is there any information on the packaging that suggests there may be health risks?  In general, I do think that people have to be their own health advocates. Regarding 'boycotting' stores or service providers with viewpoints contradictory to my own - I have no problem with this.  I view it as voting with my paycheck, and consider it a practical and potentially powerful tool. 

modb1rd

why does raw milk make anyone sick? (I am not going to research it. I don't drink milk. Don't even put cream in my coffee.) but I never even had pasturized milk until I started kindergarten. I have never heard of raw milk making anyone sick.

BobLoblaw

I don't know what to tell you. I have heard people mention WF with an air of superiority. Sorry.

wingedbride

I don't think it should be labeled juice at a certain point, but I also don't think sugar water puts people in the hospital either. Sure it does. Diabetes.

jbloom

Just being vague in general I guess, but mostly referring to the label of socialism as a Bad Thing No Matter What.  I shop at Whole Foods because it's close and I like their deli and hot food counters.  And sushi bar.  and coffee bar.  and salad bar and dried foods aisle and floral selection.  The employees are friendly and I can easily find whatever I need.I don't shop there for status.  I don't know anyone who does, at least in the sense that they brag about it or wear WF t-shirts.  I talk about shopping at Target as much as I do about WF.  I just like what I like.

wingedbride

and mod, raw milk has bacteria. now, the raw milk in the US is aged 30 days to reduce the bacteria. People who drink raw milk from their own cows probably dont do this.

pdxmouse

Fitty- how rich are we talking? I'd guess the middle class is more likely to see WF in relation to status than people who might not do their own shopping or driving. My body, my choice with substances and procedures that have health benefits. There's a reason for informed consent forms, even when the benefits outweigh the risks. I see no conflict between supporting abortion rights and opposing trepannation or elective limb removal.

FallinAgain

So, sometimes, eating raw fish might make you sick.  Should the government ban us all from eating sushi?

ftnups

I hear you bloom. But on the other hand, something isn't effective or good simply because it's under the category of socialism and people looking out for other people. There are drawbacks to government-run health care systems (our own medicare and medicaid programs more than illustrate that, and proposed legislation won't do much if anything to improve access and services for people in our country who need the help most). If one side is shouting down socialism as 100% bad, then there is definitely another side that is way too reluctant to look critically at existing socialist health systems, like those in Canada, France, the UK, etc.

BobLoblaw

I'd guess the middle class is more likely to see WF in relation to status than people who might not do their own shopping or driving.Thank you, that's what I was trying to say. I'm not implying nor did I say that ALL people who shop there do so because of brand recognition. I don't hang out with richey rich people, so I can't speak to them.

pdxmouse

Diabetes is not caused by sugar consumption.

modb1rd

you are right winged. we did not age our milk 30 days, hell sometims it was still warm.

tastyburger

bobsquatch, I get your point, too.  I haven't shopped at WF in a while due to $$ reasons, but I DO go to my farmer's market every sat. morning (when in season) and read labels/buy organics at a lower priced grocery chain in IL (Jewel).  There are some positives to WF--I could get LOST in their cheese section, and their prepared foods (the salads, pastas, the hot bars and soups) are OOC good.  I do see your point though on some people who shop at WF for "status", those are the same type of people who caused "Smug" using hybrids on that South Park episode.  Like, HEY, I CARE MOOOORE, I'M BETTER attitude.  I am just not one of those people and do not like to accociate with them.  I also don't wear overly labeled clothes and the like.

wingedbride

i am aware of that mouse, but for people who have diabetes, sugar consumption can cause problems.

tastyburger

no, but obesity is directly related to a type of diabetes.  Obesity that might be caused by eating too many sugars and high fat type products.  Not ALWAYS, heredity and other factors certainly play a part.  but it is a cause in many cases that would certainly improve a person's quality of life.

KristenBtobe

Again, I'm not the expert  but I had a long convo about raw milk with a nutritionist friend who runs an organic produce business. If raw milk comes from cows that aren't healthy and well cared for, there's an increased risk for salmonella and other foodbourne diseases. If you're going to drink raw milk it's best that it be from grass fed cows, and even better if you know the source or have even seen the place with your own eyeballs.

pdxmouse

Well then by that logic we would ban peanuts, gluten, etc because they make some people sick or even kill them. Unlike sugar water raw milk has the potential to make everyone sick. And luckily companies have put allergy warnings for peanuts on most foods, so there's extra consumer protection there. Fallin- I don't eat fish so I don't know much about raw fish. Does it regularly almost kill people and are there any protections in place to limit that?

tastyburger

no one is saying there should be a ban on high fructose corn syrup.  at least, I'm certainly not.  I will put my neck out there and say you'll find more of it by shopping at Super Walmart than at Whole Foods, especially if you are an average consumer that is not super diligent in reading labels.  The liklihood that you will grab a packaged foodstuff that will not have all those nasty chemicals in them at WF is just higher.

wingedbride

Does it regularly almost kill people and are there any protections in place to limit that? This is the point I am going to ask for your research now because you are starting to sound over the top. I know MANY people who grew up on farms and ate raw milk and live in Europe and do. I ate raw milk this summer and last summer with no health issues at all. in fact I had no incedence of my IBS  at all when I was there. Not one day. I realize mine is personal experience versus research, but from your above statements it sounds like i or my H or one of my good friends should have almost died by now.

pdxmouse

Tasty- there's a lot of evidence that Type II has more to do with heredity and age than obesity. For that matter there's a lot of evidence that obesity has a lot more to do with heredity and age than with consumption. There's also a difference between unhealthy food and food that makes you sick. Tainted peanutbutter vs soda. And no one's going to bite on the cigarette legality? I don't have a good argument against, I'm just wondering if there's a good argument for.

Knottie_22382082

Does it regularly almost kill people and are there any protections in place to limit that?I think you're reaching really hard with this, Mouse.  If raw milk "regularly almost killed people," no one in my family would be alive, since we all grew up drinking milk that was basically straight from the cow on my grandmother's dairy farm (like Mod mentioned, it was often still warm, and had no processing whatsoever).  We get that there is a health risk involved (which is why it's illegal in many states even to sell the stuff.  TN just passed a law allowing the sale of raw milk, but it has to be purchased directly from a licensed dairy (no mass retail) and you have to have a doctor's note saying that you need it for its health benefits).  This basically boils down to your view of the function of government.  I'm in the milkjug with Fallin, et al., saying that I'd like to be able to make my own decisions, thanks.  The government is never going to be able to regulate away everything that is dangerous, and I wouldn't want it to if it could.  There has got to be a limit to the extent to which people expect the state to protect them from themselves. 

CaptainSerious

I would argue that raw milk doesn't "regularly almost kill people."  People have been drinking it for ages.  In other cultures, people have immunities believed to be derived from their consumption of raw milk.  If the cows are healthy and milk is properly handled, the risks are minimal.And what about people who prefer unpasteurized milk to cook with or drink after heating?  They may not want the "fortified" versions or milk from steroid-induced cows, but still take some precautions on their own.

FallinAgain

Fallin- I don't eat fish so I don't know much about raw fish. Does it regularly almost kill people and are there any protections in place to limit that? I'm confused by regulary kills people claims.  Limited research seems to indicate that the CDC and the FDA attributed 104 hospitalizations and 2 whole deaths to raw milk between 1998 and 2005 (and that's from groups claiming the CDC is very biased against whole milk).  I dare say that's as good as the stats on ground beef if not better.   So regularly seems an overstatement.  There are requirements that sushi be off a certain quality and some states require freezing it, but you're still taking a risk--as you are with everything you put in your mouth.