Has this news reached your neck of the woods?

Lizzieyounce

What do you think?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/11/justice/texas-abuser-killed/index.html

I'm applauding the father of this girl. I'd have done the same thing, actally. Who knows how many other little girls this perv molested, or how many he could have gone onto molest had he gotten away with this.

[Deleted User]

Good for the father. Based on the article (assuming it's all fact/accurate), that guy deserved to die (and yes, I know people here hate when someone says that, but I firmly believe it).

SEWF

I want to say killing is wrong, and after the guy went down, the father should have restrained himself.

But it's his daughter. I or my husband would have killed the guy, too. It was in defense AS IT WAS HAPPENING. So yeah, the guy deserved it.

MRSBJS

I heard about this today - and I can't say that as a parent, I would react any differently.

Blueyed228

When did we become a society that disregards laws and encourages vigilantes?

MRSBJS

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:ea1b5e45-e3dd-4dcd-97fb-31175ef3a034">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]When did we become a society that disregards laws and encourages vigilantes?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

This is the logical, intelligent answer.

For me personally, I don't think logic would enter into the equation. I don't know that I could think rationally in a situation like that, to be perfectly honest.

[Deleted User]

I don't see him as a vigilante. I see him as a father protecting his daughter from a perverted criminal in the very moment she is being violated.

Blueyed228

Protecting her is removing her from the situation. Not beating him to death in front of her. Now not only has she been allegedly molested, but now she has seen her father kill a man.

SEWF

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:ea1b5e45-e3dd-4dcd-97fb-31175ef3a034">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]When did we become a society that disregards laws and encourages vigilantes?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>When Boondock Saints came out.</div><div>
</div><div>I kid!</div><div>
</div><div>I don't know. In most cases, I think the laws are just and reasonable. But there are some corrupt lawmakers and politicians out there. I know I can't choose which laws to follow and when, but I also believe in honor and protecting those that can't protect themselves. It's a fine line for me. </div><div>
</div><div>In this case, he caught the guy molesting his four year old child. I think most people would beat the crap out of someone doing something like that to any child. And I'm not saying it's right, but at that point the adrenaline is pumping and the lines get blurred. </div><div>
</div><div>I also think there is information left out of the articles that is important in the case: did the dad just keep swinging until the guy was dead? Did the guy fall in some weird way or hit something on the way down that killed him? The police seem to believe it was only in defense.</div><div>
</div><div>I don't know. I usually try to stay out of moral debates like this on message boards, but this one is close to me because my uncle almost had the same thing happen to him (found his sister being beaten up by her boyfriend, kicked the guy's ass, luckily stopped before he killed the guy).</div>

Lizzieyounce

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:ecca229e-aec4-4205-9979-1d8d9fca8e50">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't see him as a vigilante. I see him as a father protecting his daughter from a perverted criminal in the very moment she is being violated.
Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>This.</div><div>
</div><div>Heat of the moment, moment here...now had the perv not been caught in the act, and dad found out about it later then hunted the perv down? That would be vigilante behavior which I cannot condone. </div>

MRSBJS

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:25301991-45e2-4f90-b09b-ab332e525cf8">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : This. Heat of the moment, moment here...now had the perv not been caught in the act, and dad found out about it later then hunted the perv down? That would be vigilante behavior which I cannot condone. 
Posted by Lizzieyounce[/QUOTE]

I have to agree. I think there would be a difference if it had been after the fact. But catching someone in the act of raping your child? I feel like all bets are off.

[Deleted User]

If my kid is being molested, I doubt my first thought would be, "Let me pick her up and remove her from the situation (walk her into another room?), leaving her attacker to escape while I'm gone." That's what I'd worry about. Yes, he has to protect her, and part of that is making sure this guy gets what's coming to him.

But I'll admit, I'm obviously highly biased in these situations so it's pointless for me to debate. Nothing will change my mind with these types of cases.

MrsKathyC

Someone hurts my kid or now my grandkids like that, they die!

Blueyed228

Im not saying in the heat of the moment I would react any different. However I would fully expect to go to jail for murder. You don't get to kill a guy because he molested your kid.

Lizzieyounce

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:74eb4a07-e583-49cd-9b0b-8a9ff6bd292a">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : When Boondock Saints came out. I kid! I don't know. In most cases, I think the laws are just and reasonable. But there are some corrupt lawmakers and politicians out there. I know I can't choose which laws to follow and when, but I also believe in honor and protecting those that can't protect themselves. It's a fine line for me.  In this case, he caught the guy molesting his four year old child. I think most people would beat the crap out of someone doing something like that to any child. And I'm not saying it's right, but at that point the adrenaline is pumping and the lines get blurred.  I also think there is information left out of the articles that is important in the case: did the dad just keep swinging until the guy was dead? Did the guy fall in some weird way or hit something on the way down that killed him? The police seem to believe it was only in defense. I don't know. I usually try to stay out of moral debates like this on message boards, but this one is close to me because my uncle almost had the same thing happen to him (found his sister being beaten up by her boyfriend, kicked the guy's ass, luckily stopped before he killed the guy).
Posted by SEWF[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>Our local paper just says that the perv was beaten in the head "several" times. Also, FWIW the father has stated that he didn't intend to kill the guy and that he feels bad the he died.  </div><div>
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</div>

Lizzieyounce

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:c48da9f5-d662-48d3-820f-5c026e6b83af">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods? : This. However, whether or not he is charged and what he is charged with to me comes down to how many times he hit the guy, etc.  I doubt he intended to kill him, so I don't think it could be first degree.
Posted by djhar[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>We're talking Texas justice here..dad will not be indicted. I can guarantee that.

</div>

Blueyed228

Oh well as long as he "feels bad".

MRSBJS

Is there any kind of precedent for this?

Blue do you know if this has ever happened in our area?

achiduck

If I caught someone molesting my child I would beat the ever-loving crap out of them too. While I understand the argument that this is vigilante justice, it would be hard to control yourself in that situation.

The chances that the father will ever see any legal action taken against him is virtually none IMO.

Blueyed228

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:60fbb44c-7e8a-4b43-ba80-9be5beef4050">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]Is there any kind of precedent for this? Blue do you know if this has ever happened in our area?
Posted by MRSBJS[/QUOTE]



A guy walked in on an illegal immigrant reaching under a stall touching his son. He punched him in the face. Dad was arrested.

SEWF

I can see him going for manslaughter or something like that. Since it was in defense of his daughter, as it was happening, I don't think he'll get a murder rap. Even if he gets manslaughter, he probably won't spend much (if any) time in jail.

But like I said, I don't know all the facts.

brandichamberlain

I just think about the stipulations that are in place that people have the right to defend themselves if they are in imminent danger.  If someone breaks into your home with a gun to rob you, then some states will not prosecute you for protecting yourself, even if that means the robber is killed.  I see someone coming in to molest a 4 year old along the same lines.  They come into the home will ill intentions and cause harm in that moment.  The Dad caught him and protected his family.    If he were to have found out after the fact, that is a different story. 

peekaboo2011

Good for him.  I'm with Sesh as far as how I feel about this stuff.  I don't have kids yet, but when I do, if anyone touches them like that, it's going to be a miracle if they make it to trial.

As a kid, I went to a private school for kindergarten.  The custodian apparently thought I looked like his granddaughter and gave me a toy angel and wanted to give me hugs.  I apparently just didn't like him, and so I wouldn't go near him.  The school called my parents because they thought I'd been abused.  My father wouldn't even go to the school to talk to the guy after my mom had talked to me and figured out that I just didn't like him.  Dad was afraid he'd hurt the guy.

So, yeah, I kind of get the reaction.

Lizzieyounce

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:4966951b-0930-4060-b96b-229ad6997328">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]I just think about the stipulations that are in place that people have the right to defend themselves if they are in imminent danger.  If someone breaks into your home with a gun to rob you, then some states will not prosecute you for protecting yourself, even if that means the robber is killed.  I see someone coming in to molest a 4 year old along the same lines.  They come into the home will ill intentions and cause harm in that moment.  The Dad caught him and protected his family.    If he were to have found out after the fact, that is a different story. 
Posted by brandichamberlain[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>
</div><div>We have the Castle Doctrine here in TX...if someone breaks into your house, you have the right to shoot to kill, even if it's later found that there was no weapon in the perp's possession. The fact that the victim feels as if he/she were in imminent danger is justification (but the shooter stilll has to go before a grand jury, he just isn't arrested).  We are also a concealed carry state.  Car jackings have gone down since concealed carry was implimented and a citizen exercised his rights when he was getting jacked...the jacker was shot and killed, and the victim was no billed by the grand jury.</div><div>
</div><div>

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Blueyed228

But does understanding the reaction make the action ok?

brandichamberlain

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:2fd0d6e7-2a27-435b-a968-4baf9ece5cd0">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]But does understanding the reaction make the action ok?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

I think this is one of the times that we look at morals vs.. laws and the argument can that there is a clear difference in them comes up.

If we are looking at it all emotions aside, then the law states that he was wrong.  Voluntary manslaughter would likely be the best offense to charge him with. 

If we are looking at it with emotions in tact, most people would say he was right in his actions to defend his daughter.

FWIW, If I were on a jury, I doubt I would convict him even though, according to the law, he was wrong in his actions.

MRSBJS

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:2fd0d6e7-2a27-435b-a968-4baf9ece5cd0">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]But does understanding the reaction make the action ok?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

I see what you're saying, Blue.

And maybe it's my own shortcoming, but I can't past the emotional aspect of this. I, too, might feel horrible after the fact, but I just can't wrap my head around being able to think rationally and act accordingly while this was happening.

I feel like this would send me into a blind rage. I almost want to compare it to people who get acquitted for temporary insantiy. I know it's not the same but that's the only analogy I can think of. In the moment, they were unaware of what they were doing and were not in a state of mind where they could determine right from wrong. I don't know if that makes sense or not. It made sense in my head.

achiduck

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:2fd0d6e7-2a27-435b-a968-4baf9ece5cd0">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]But does understanding the reaction make the action ok?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

Is it ever ok to kill someone? No. I don't believe he intended to kill the guy though. I know that still doesn't make it ok, but it's what happened unfortunately.

cheeseandrice

Honestly? I'd be ok if he punched him to get him away/off of the daughter.  But unless he's some kind of superhero, the likelihood of him killing the guy with a few punches is pretty low. He meant to do serious damage. Either way, he still deserves to pay the price for the crime.

Question though- what if it was an older teenager the rapist had attacked and they punched the guy hard enough to kill him? That's self-defense then, right? Or even then should they have enough restraint to only make it stop?

I'm not saying I'd agree to that either. Just curious if that changes anyone's opinion. If there's a difference between self defense and defending your 4-year old?

Lizzieyounce

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:2fd0d6e7-2a27-435b-a968-4baf9ece5cd0">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]But does understanding the reaction make the action ok?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>Not in hindsight, Blue. But this is why the law provdes for heat of the moment, or crimes of passion, or even the option for the grand jury to decide not to indict. Even if the father doesn't do jail time, he will have to live with the fact that he took a life. Just like I would if I ended up killing someone to protect me or mine.  But I'd regret NOT doing anything to protect me or my loved ones more.</div><div>
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peekaboo2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_has-this-news-reached-your-neck-of-the-woods?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:1904a717-584d-4e58-885a-f1d78be35aa6Post:2fd0d6e7-2a27-435b-a968-4baf9ece5cd0">Re: Has this news reached your neck of the woods?</a>:
[QUOTE]But does understanding the reaction make the action ok?
Posted by Blueyed228[/QUOTE]

From a purely logical place, no.

But this isn't a robbery or any other random crime.  This is a man who saw his child being molested.  Getting past the emotion of this crime would be impossible for me.