Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate

cheeseandrice

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mica178

Those proposed bills are ridiculous, but at least a couple of them raise interesting points about how ridiculous it is that (mostly non-medicaly trained) lawmakers are trying to impose rules on women's healthcare.

That being said, I have no problem with requiring pre-abortion transvaginal ultrasound.  It's considered the standard of care at 99% of Planned Parenthoods.  In fact, I would consider a provider irresponsible towards the health of the mother if it wasn't done.  Transabdominal ultrasound cannot detect early pregnancies, that's why the more invasive transvaginal ultrasound is used.  Giving medical abortifacients is dangerous if the pregnancy is too advanced, so it's important to get an accurate size of the fetus. 

baystateapple

Oh my God, Steph.  That is heartbreaking.  Holy shiit.

ahhhitsshannyn

"Unless it's not diagnosed until after 20 weeks"

Exactly. My friend's baby was not diagnosed with anencephaly until AFTER her anatomy scan, which is at around 20 weeks. 

ErinG93

I don't buy the "abortion is ok if the woman was raped" bullshit. I've said this before, but then what? Do charges need to be filed? Does the rapist need to be in jail? What if they can't find the rapist? Does the woman have to prove she was raped? 

Rape is traumatic enough. Let's give the victim more problems. And then to add more, iin your opinion, it's ok to "murder/kill" a baby that is a product of rape, but it's not ok to abort a "human" whose parents cannot provide for it? Doesn't make sense to me. If a life is a life to you, it shouldn't matter whether rape is involved.

NicoleSahara

I appreciate those of you who can discuss this without getting all pissed off and calling people stupid. I (and I think chels) do not agree that human life begins at birth**. If I did believe that then your points totally make sense. And no you're not going to change my mind and I know I'm not going to change yours, but I can still appreciate a good discussion on it and learn some things in the process.

**ETA: to Anna/Rupert's point I will clarify, I consider an unborn baby to be a person and have rights.

cheeseandrice

aaand the anencephaly story from one of the mom's on my month board.

http://facesofloss.com/2010/09/324.html

RupertPenny

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:542ea17b-4a8f-4b78-ac45-a5983025dab6">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]I appreciate those of you who can discuss this without getting all pissed off and calling people stupid. I (and I think chels)<strong> do not agree that human life begins at birth</strong>. If I did believe that then your points totally make sense. And no you're not going to change my mind and I know I'm not going to change yours, but I can still appreciate a good discussion on it and learn some things in the process.
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

<div>I don't think life begins at birth either. I can concede that an unborn baby is alive. However, it is not a person and does not have rights. That's the difference. But I'm sure I'm still not going to change anyones mind, so I guess I really should just stop. </div>

AllAboutTheBenjamin

UGH STEPH.  I die.

RupertPenny

Steph, these stories are just so heartbreaking. I can't imagine going through something like that and I sincerely hope I never have to. 

maratea

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:ba624723-c7aa-4efb-ade4-f6a63b53fbdb">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]Want another story? Scroll down to "Our story" <a href="http://roxyttandme.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://roxyttandme.blogspot.com/</a>
Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]


This is so heartbreaking. I can't imagine going through that. :(

mica178

Oh, that poor couple.  I cannot imagine being given that kind of news.

cheeseandrice

Right. I get that Nicole. BUT the issue is that if you want to ban abortion, you're forcing EVERYONE in this country to follow rules based on your RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Which, you know, is against the constitution.

Look, before reading some of these stories, I would be saying the same thing as you. But you can't read through those stories, FEEL the absolute hell and heartbreak that went into the decisions to terminate, and not feel at least a little compassion. There was a line in one of those from the mom who said "we did the least selfish thing possible. We took the pain and suffering away from our child and took it all on ourselves. We have to live with this decision."  That changed my point of view 180 degrees.

cheeseandrice

Sorry for being the big debbie downer. I just... I never really knew stuff like that happened. That it was possible to hear "look. Your baby is incompatable with life"... so late in the pregnancy. It completely changed my opinion on late-term abortions.

In general, hell no, I don't agree with them. But. Clearly there are cases where it may be an exception.

NicoleSahara

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:44839350-2263-4327-92e5-a218cd3c000d">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]Right. I get that Nicole. BUT the issue is that if you want to ban abortion, you're forcing EVERYONE in this country to follow rules based on your RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Which, you know, is against the constitution. Look, before reading some of these stories, I would be saying the same thing as you. But you can't read through those stories, FEEL the absolute hell and heartbreak that went into the decisions to terminate, and not feel at least a little compassion. There was a line in one of those from the mom who said "we did the least selfish thing possible. We took the pain and suffering away from our child and took it all on ourselves. We have to live with this decision."  That changed my point of view 180 degrees.
Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you posted those stories, they do help me look at it in a way I hadn't thought of before. I wonder how many perfectly healthy babies get aborted. Are there people here that do not support the abortion of a healthy fetus, or is it an all or nothing deal?

baystateapple

I don't think you're being a debbie downer, Steph.  I think you're presenting the gray area to an argument that becomes very black and white most of the time. 

I don't know how anyone would ever be able to say to the mother in the first link that you listed, "Look, your baby is suffering and her body is literally amputating itself in utero, but she has a right to keep living until she naturally dies."

I hate abortion, I really do.  But in cases like this...I just don't know.  I would never be able to make that call for someone else.  I can hardly think about making a call like that for myself.

RupertPenny

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:0e1fd516-14ee-4d42-a5ab-81312dbbf243">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : I'm glad you posted those stories, they do help me look at it in a way I hadn't thought of before. I wonder how many perfectly healthy babies get aborted. Are there people here that do not support the abortion of a healthy fetus, or is it an all or nothing deal?
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

<div>For me it's all or nothing. If someone wants to terminate their pregnancy that is between them and their doctor, it is not my business and not my problem. They should be able to do so regardless.</div><div>
</div><div>This is why I think it's stupid to try and ban aboritions except in the case of rape or incest. Either it's wrong or it's not. Either it's illegal or it's not. I think the exceptions just undermine the pro-life argument. I feel the same way about late term abortions, wanting to outlaw them just undermines the pro-choice stance. </div>

AllAboutTheBenjamin

I don't like the idea of aborting a healthy fetus, but again, it's not my call.  My sole reason for supporting the legality of abortion is to protect women.  If abortion is made illegal in this country, women will still obtain abortions - unsafe, illegal abortions, where not only the baby dies, but the woman's life is also at risk.  I am not okay with that and would not be okay with our country going back to that.

My grandpa took my aunt to have two abortions.  Yes, two.  My aunt was in a relationship with a man who routinely abused her verbally and physically, and raped her.  It broke his heart to take his own daughter to abort his grandchildren, but he did it because he (and my aunt) was not okay with her being tied to this guy forever.  Seriously.  He was bad news.  Years after she left him the guy wound up in prison for murdering his wife.

crnflkgirl75

My two cents is that it is all a slippery slope. Once you draw a line, it becomes easier to move that line. I do not want legislators telling me what I can do with my body.

NicoleSahara

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:5ef5e1cc-93a5-432a-815b-88592fba8319">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Here's the thing though - most late-term abortions are not elective without medical reasons.  Meaning, a 30 week pregnant woman cannot decide all of a sudden she doesn't wish to be pregnant anymore, and she wants to abort a healthy fetus.</strong>  The late term abortion laws really only serve the purpose of getting between a woman and her doctor.  I have issues with this.  I don't want legislators making decisions for me when they do not have the facts of the case; those facts are between me and my doctor.  My doctor bears the burden of providing me with the facts of the case, and I, as the woman, should bear the burden of making the best medical decision for me and my child.  Period. 
Posted by Holly4212011[/QUOTE]

But a lot of people want to change that, so it's a very real possibility that that will be the case in the future, correct? I think that's wrong.  

cheeseandrice

Nicole, seriously? I don't think anyone 'supports' abortion. I do, however. think people are realistic enough to understand that (unfortunately) termination may be the more responsible/humane/compassionate option. Are there people out there who see abortion as another birth control? sadly, yes. But I'd like to think that most women/couples don't make the decision lightly. That they see it as a decision where they have no other option. But maybe that's me being naive and unrealistic.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:bbf226e8-387b-4a23-83d1-817fe0dd4434">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : <strong>OMG. This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on here.</strong> Seriously. When you make abortion illegal, who are you taking rights away from? The woman (and the man) who wants to have an abortion. When you outlaw contraception, who are you taking rights away from? The woman and man who don't want children or who want to engage in safe sexual behavior. All of this is taking away rights from the people who need them.
Posted by maratea[/QUOTE]

Thank you for calling my beliefs dumb. You don't have to agree with them, but calling me dumb or what I say that reflects my belifs dumb isn't really necessary.

ceh789

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:0e1fd516-14ee-4d42-a5ab-81312dbbf243">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : I'm glad you posted those stories, they do help me look at it in a way I hadn't thought of before. I wonder how many perfectly healthy babies get aborted. <strong>Are there people here that do not support the abortion of a healthy fetus, or is it an all or nothing deal?</strong>
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]
No. One. Supports. Abortion.<div>
</div><div>No one.  There is no one in this world who is out there saying Yay Abortion!  We need more abortions!</div><div>
</div><div>People are saying that it is only my decision to make when it's my uterus.  Safe abortion needs to be available.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>Also, the story about Hannah is hands down the saddest thing I've ever read.  The only story I can imagine being sadder is if she hadn't had the option to terminate.</div>

Anysunrise

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:348ba8cf-4ac1-4d0c-9b38-3e954f326840">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : But a lot of people want to change that, so it's a very real possibility that that will be the case in the future, correct? I think that's wrong.  
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

I think you're once again confusing pro-choice with pro-abortion. No one is advocating 30 week abortions for healthy babies.

NicoleSahara

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:f57e00a0-a294-41be-bf36-0f65e4e829e0">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : For me it's all or nothing. If someone wants to terminate their pregnancy that is between them and their doctor, it is not my business and not my problem. They should be able to do so regardless. This is why I think it's stupid to try and ban aboritions except in the case of rape or incest. Either it's wrong or it's not. Either it's illegal or it's not. I think the exceptions just undermine the pro-life argument. I feel the same way about late term abortions, wanting to outlaw them just undermines the pro-choice stance. 
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

But like in the first story Steph posted, where the woman gave up her baby because she was falling apart, literally, I don't think I see that as wrong. That is a far cry from saying terminating a perfectly healthy baby is ok. So I know you're saying it's black and white, and one or the other, I just don't see it that way. I did see it that way (and would say that abortion was ALWAYS wrong, no matter what - I'm not in the rape/incest then it's ok camp), but now there's a lot more to consider.

mica178

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:f57e00a0-a294-41be-bf36-0f65e4e829e0">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : For me it's all or nothing. If someone wants to terminate their pregnancy that is between them and their doctor, it is not my business and not my problem. They should be able to do so regardless. This is why I think it's stupid to try and ban aboritions except in the case of rape or incest. Either it's wrong or it's not. Either it's illegal or it's not. I think the exceptions just undermine the pro-life argument. I feel the same way about late term abortions, wanting to outlaw them just undermines the pro-choice stance. 
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

Anna, are you going to put in a sig pic so that people know you aren't just a really outspoken newb?

The smartest thing the pro-life lobby ever did was to back off from the general abortion debate and start attacking things that make people squeamish like abortion after 20 weeks.  The smartest thing the pro-choice lobby ever did was to put in clauses exempting pregnancies from rape or incest from restrictions.  It's a slippery slope for both sides if you can get your opponent to see your side in specific circumstances, because then you just have to keep pushing in your direction to get momentum.

RupertPenny

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:04163ed2-6228-494c-ab79-d94966c690a2">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : But like in the first story Steph posted, where the woman gave up her baby because she was falling apart, literally,<strong> I don't think I see that as wrong. That is a far cry from saying terminating a perfectly healthy baby is ok.</strong> So I know you're saying it's black and white, and one or the other, I just don't see it that way. I did see it that way (and would say that abortion was ALWAYS wrong, no matter what - I'm not in the rape/incest then it's ok camp), but now there's a lot more to consider.
Posted by NicoleSahara[/QUOTE]

<div>Honestly, it doesn't really matter what you think is wrong or ok or whatever, unless you are the pregnant person. That's the overall point. </div>

LetsHikeToday

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:1bb363a6-0cd4-43b0-8188-c922c9d1e92f">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : Honestly, it doesn't really matter what you think is wrong or ok or whatever, unless you are the pregnant person. That's the overall point. 
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]



Just caught up and ive agreed with everything you've posted.

Steph- what a sad story and horrible decision the parents had to make.

AllAboutTheBenjamin

Nicole, if Haleigh's mom lived in a state where a law like this was on the books she would not have been able to make the decision to terminate her pregnancy.  Is that okay with you?  Because really, that's what most people are pissed about in this thread.  No one is saying people love to run out and encourage aborting late term healthy babies.  This is about medical decisions between an expectant mother and her doctor about her fetus, and an entire myriad of insane complications that might arise during a pregnancy where termination would be the best option.  I'd be willing to bet that the lawmaker in Georgia has never even heard of Haleigh's condition.

NicoleSahara

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_well-this-is-an-interesting-component-to-an-abortion-debate?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:aab9ae6e-9b71-4637-ba4e-34921731048cPost:b67a5d5d-b53b-45fb-aca3-6fdd7705ad5c">Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Well, this is an interesting component to an abortion debate : I think you're once again confusing pro-choice with pro-abortion. No one is advocating 30 week abortions for healthy babies.
Posted by Anysunrise[/QUOTE]

No, but they are advocating that as an option for women to have, correct?