Religion. Again.

Celles

FI's parents have taken it upon themselves to ask a priest associated with the church they frequent in Arizona (they're snowbirds) about the possibility of officiating our marriage, even though (1) I'm an atheist and (2) the ceremony will take place outside of the church.  (And outside.  Period.)  From what I understand of Church policy, I'm pretty sure it's a no go anyway, but I am REALLY starting to resent their meddling.

I know FI wanted a traditional Catholic wedding, even though he's no longer a practicing Catholic (and claims to have neither a belief nor a disbelief in God).  I don't really understand why -- but maybe Dani is right and I don't have to understand it as long as I respect it.  Whatever.

But Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, people.

Everytime I think we've agreed on a secular (or at least, religion-neutral) ceremony or officiant, either FI or his family brings the discussion back around to the Catholic thing.  I love him -- I really, really do -- but sometimes I wish I'd remembered when I met him that "not being an atheist" was on my list of dealbreakers. 

/end rant

[Deleted User]

That sucks. Religion was a big thing for H and I. We told each other at the beginning that we weren't religious and wouldn't put up with that kind of thing. Luckily we see eye-to-eye.

Does your FI really want a priest, or does he just want to appease his family? It doesn't make any sense to want a Catholic ceremony if he doesn't practice or even really believe in God. At some point he's got to put his foot down and tell them to butt out.

saschaduran

Religion is such a weird thing to me.

I grew up with no religion, went to Catholic school to avoid the poor schools where I grew up, and spent summer vacations being sent to a Pentecostal church with my stepmom watching people speak in tongues and being scared to death.

Religion plays no role in my life.  I won't say I am an atheist...I just choose not to really think about it.  Maybe I am agnostic?

I married an excommunicated Jehovah's Witness, and while I think his family is full of incredible people....I find what they choose to value and not value according to their religion to be hypocritical and mind boggling.  (premarital sex, swearing, rated R movies-not ok.  Heavy drinking, skipping school, dropping out of school-ok)

My hugest fear is that someday he will want to rejoin the church and it terrifies me that it would affect our marriage.  Although he was deeply hurt by being cut off from his entire community after being excommunicated, he still defends the religion.

kimheartsscott

How soon could you find an officiant?  I found that once I asked my Muslim friend to officiate a secular ceremony, my mom stopped hinting about finding a good priest. It's not like we can be like "hey Yousef, just kidding!" so she kind of had to drop it.

Celles

I think he really wants a priest.  He keeps telling me that his Catholicism is more about a core set of values than an actual belief in God.  Apparently, he's a Christian insofar that he believes that the teachings of Christ have value.  But he rejects the divinity of Christ -- and as far as I know, that's kind of key.

I'm confused.  And frustrated.  And my family has such a bad history with the Catholic church that it's REALLY hard for me to give him this one.  (Long story short: my great-grandmother died believing she was damned because her Catholic priest denied her last rights.  Apparently, she didn't have a generous enough "donation" to be worth his time.)

mica178

You're right that the Catholic church will not perform a wedding outside of a church without a high-level dispensation.  However, they do perform "natural" weddings between Catholics and non-Christians (the marriage would not be a Sacrament since you're unbaptized).  The two of you would have to be committed to raising Catholic kids in that situation or the church probably wouldn't approve the wedding anyway. 

Some people don't really practice their religion until they're in a committed relationship and thinking about family.  Your FI might be at that point where he's reconsidering his partial departure from the church.  All you can do is talk to him and clarify where you stand as a couple.

maratea

I don't have anything to offer except:

Celles

Sascha -- I know exactly where you're coming from.  My ex-boyfriend was an ex-Jehovah's Witness, and I saw many of the same things.  I don't think I could have remained with him if he'd returned to his family's faith.  (Obviously, I didn't stay with him anyway, but our break-up had more to do with distance than religion!)

Kimheartscott --  Can I borrow Yousef?

Mica -- Thanks for the insight.  I rather thought that was the case.  I think FI would settle for a "natural" wedding, but I can't in good conscience tell a priest I am committed to raising my children Catholic when, in truth, I'm not.

Celles

maratea -- ... this fight was almost worth having, just to see that.

kimheartsscott

Ha!  Maybe!  One of the reasons we picked him (besides knowing both of us fairly well) is he is a journalism major and plans on being an anchor, so we know he's cool with public speaking. 

Celles

I'm meeting with a pastor in about an hour.  I'm not looking forward to it, in part because religion in general makes me uncomfortable, and part because Jef and I are still fighting about it in Gmail chat right now. 

kimheartsscott

Aww, gchat fights are the worst    Scott and I had several of those while he was in Africa.

katiewhompus

*hugs* My H wanted a Catholic wedding, but right away realized it wasn't happening if I didn't convert, and that me converting wasn't happening anyways. It definitely varies by church, but most Catholic priests (or even other denominational Christian priests I've talked to) will not marry people who do not belong (as in attend regularly and contribute) to their church.

I know how you're feeling though. H and I figured out the whole baptism thing, yet his family keeps hinting towards "So how old will your future baby be before the baptism" or "Will your child be baptised at our church?" Um no. They will not be religiously baptised at all thank you very much.

Anysunrise

I have no idea how I'd handle this situation, so I just send you many happy thoughts and e-hugs.

And kittens. Have some kittens.

Celles

Thanks Katie.  *Hugs* 

I wish I could handle this kind of situation with the same grace that you do.  I really admire you.   

We've had the baptism debate, too.  I've told him that if it's REALLY important to him that our children are baptized by the Catholic church, then I'll consent to it but I won't be in attendance.  That doesn't seem to be enough of a compromise for him, either.  I'm really at my wit's end when it comes to religion.  It's starting to feel like the only compromise that's acceptable to him is his way, and that's no compromise at all.

Celles

I'll take e-hugs and kittens!  Thanks Anysunrise. 

HobokensFury

Don't worry a Catholic priest can not marry you outside of the church without permission from the Vatican.  It's a no go so don't panic.

katiewhompus

Eh, I've had a while to deal with it. I dated a pastor's son in high school, along with a Mormon, and an uber religious guy at 18.

It sounds dorky but we're actually basing our ceremony off of one we saw on Army Wives. Basically it focused on the community part of the baptism, and promising to raise the child in a good way, with respect and love for those who share the earth with us. I think there was also an agreement to raise the child however the couple deemed spiritually but no specific "this religious way".

You may run into the same problem with baptism though. Again it's church specific I know, but very few churches around us will baptise your kid unless both parents attend for a certain amount of time. That might null and void it right there for you.

AllAboutTheBenjamin

A guy that I went to church with growing up married an athiest, and when they went to our pastor to marry them - he wouldn't, because of her (non) beliefs.

So yeah, it may not even be an issue!  Especially since I think Catholics (at least around where I live) don't even believe you're married unless you're married BY a Catholic priest IN the Catholic church, and if you don't marry another Catholic, well... you get a side eye.

Either way, I hope your future in-laws don't meddle much more than they already have.  Hopefully they can learn to respect your wishes.  Especially since you know, marriage is supposed to be forever and all.  You're gonna be around a while

jasmineh7777

Hi Celles.

I don't know any priest that will do what your future in-laws are asking. If they agree, I can almost guarantee it will not be approved by the Bishop in the area, and not sanctioned by the church. For one, we don't do the outside thing. I don't know why; I think Jesus would dig outdoor weddings.

Not only that, but I'm guessing you guys haven't done Catholic pre-marital counseling. Have you taken the FOCUS test? Or done an engaged encounter? If you've answered "no" to both of these questions, no priest should be willing to marry you. The whole point of the pre-marital stuff is to prevent divorce. Our priest could have flat out said, "You guys shouldn't get married, and I won't approve it."

Andplusalso, he really needs to stop pressuring you about this. It is not just him making a commitment if you have a religious ceremony. You are expected to make the same commitments, even if you don't convert. He is putting you in a position that you either have to lie or compromise your beliefs. Not cool Celle's FI. Not cool.

jasmineh7777

And AATB is right in that the church won't acknowledge your marriage if you don't either get married in the church, or later get your marriage convalidated.

I've said this before, but my priest really likes my H. My priest is also a bit quirky, but he was totally cool with H not being religious at all.

Blueyed228

Celles I am late to this but have you considered having a pastor or minister perform a ceremony?  With all of the religions out there, I am sure you could find someone that could be a perfect "meet in the middle" for the two of you.  Have a few touches of religious things without compromising your beliefs?

Are you willing to allow at least some religious aspect to it for your FI?

This may solve the whole IL problem and satisfy your FI sudden need for something religious, all while not having a "Hallelujah Come to Jesus!" wedding that you would hate.

alaea

Ugh...I totally feel your pain here...a bit in reverse, but hey, pain's pain, ne?

I think a friend of mine explained it best... Marriage is traditonally a religious ceremony... So there can be some strong feelings tied into it because of this... but it's really not worth stressing yourself out either way...if all else, snag a JP in your area and ask them to perform your ceremony ^_^

My FI and I are using a pastor of a church neither of us attend. (My FI used to work with the guy at his job...) and that is non-demoninational, because I'm AG & he grew up Methodist, but is more agnostic than anything...

brookelynpaisley

I'm wondering if I might be able to offer a suggestion. DH and I are non-practicing former Catholics. He's agnostic, I'm on the atheist/agnostic fence. Bascially, I don't think I believe in God, but I'm not sure I want to give up complete belief in some power. I also don't spend much time thinking about religion in general, so haven't decided how to classify myself. We do, however, share a lot of values about family and marriage that we see as being set by our Catholic upbringing.

Anywho, when we were engaged and talking about who would marry us, I suggested a friend whose spritiual (Catholic) values I deeply admired. Even if I haven't had faith, he has, in a very nonabrasive, supportive way. We asked him to be ordained specifically to marry us and he did. Maybe that could be an option for you: someone whose values you both admire but isn't actually a clergy member.

thesuninherhead

Celles, when reading your post I felt like your H seems to be in a similar place to where I was once upon a time. I was raised as a Christian and for such a long time- even when I'd come to a decision that I didn't align myself as a Christian- I felt as though I just had to marry in a church and had to baptise my children. I think a lot of it was my upbringing; that was the 'right' way to do things as far as I had learnt, and it felt wrong to be doing something otherwise; even though I knew in my heart that I did not believe in God. It wasn't until my long term ex and I had conversations where he insisted that he would never marry in a church and would never baptise his children that I was forced to confront my desires to do these things and question exactly why I wanted them. In doing so, I realised I was acting to please my family and not being true to my values. 

I guess what I'm saying doesn't make a lot of difference to your situation (sorry!), but I'd like to give you a little hope that with time, your FI may reassess his feelings on this issue. In the meantime, I agree with the above; trying to find a common ground is pretty important to moving forward with this. It can't be you doing all of the settling, though; he needs to bend too.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

Well, to be honest, a lot of religions, even non-Christian religions, admire Jesus and his works, but don't believe in his divinity. Islam comes to mind in that regard.

Would you be comfortable with something spiritual? Perhaps a UU minister or a Buddhist nun? (Cause if I were you, at this point I'd go with that.) It sounds like your FI isn't happy with anything non-Catholic though. Even things that are closer to Catholicism than secularism and therefore not entirely comfortable for you. Dilemma.

catemeg

I can understand the situation.  My BF was raised Catholic, and I went to Catholic school and attended an Episcopalian church growing up.  But we're both very much atheist now, so most of our issues are about how to include the cultural aspects of the religions without any mention of "God".

It sounds like your FI is culturally Catholic - he appreciates the family values from attending church, he likes the teachings as guidelines to life, but he doesn't exactly believe line-item the doctrine of any specific religion.

Really sit down and figure out what is important to him - has he pictured getting married in a Church?  Does he like the image of a minister/priest conducting the ceremony in his robes?  Does he have a particular affinity with one specific church or priest?  I had a friend who got married and had a minister perform the ceremony - he said he had to say "God" at least once, but the rest would be non-religious.  He did a fantastic job, and if I remember correctly he said something like, "May God bless this union" which is really a passing phrase that's easy to ignore the religious aspects.

Regarding baptism, both BF and I agree that our children will not be brought up according to any religion.  However, we do want to spend Sunday mornings volunteering as a family, teaching them how important it is to give back.  And we've agreed that we will baptize our children simply because it would mean so much to his Mom and my grandparents (and to a lesser extent, his Dad and my parents) and to us, it's just a guy in a robe splashing water on a baby and means nothing.  Since it means nothing to us, we don't see any harm in doing it since it will mean so much to our families.