Can anyone explain NCLB to me?

number55

So I was just reading an article on MSNBC about NCLB and I reailzed that I don't know much about the program as a whole...I did a little reading on wikipedia but I still have a couple of questions...

Apparently 95% of students are expected to be proficient in reading (and math?) but at the same time schools are expected to out perform the previous year each following year (meaning that score should improve year after year after year and if they don't there are interventions)...and then their results on both of these dictate funding/intervention? But each state sets their own standard for prociency and their own test to assess proficiency?

Amd I understanding it correctly?  

SarahPLiz

If you are totally confused and a little offended as a teacher, then you are probably understanding it correctly.

number55

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_can-anyone-explain-nclb-to-me?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:ce6ac8aa-69b2-44f0-b8bc-77bc4f3bddb9Post:8be15e64-568b-4da3-a909-efd4afac1bd8">Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me?</a>:
[QUOTE]If you are totally confused and a little offended as a teacher, then you are probably understanding it correctly.
Posted by SarahPLiz[/QUOTE]

<div>Ha! Mostly just reading the comments but I am pretty used to people thinking teachers are lazy and bad at their jobs.   </div><div>
</div><div>In terms of the program I just don't see how it is actually feasible to expect 95% of a population to reach a certain benchmark unless that benchmark is really low but you can't win elections saying stuff like that.</div>

cheeseandrice

Basically, the program is stupid.

All I know is MN was given an exemption (along with 9 other states.)  I *think* that was done because MN was able to prove that their school systems are good enough without having to answer to big brother. 

shaydenise

My senior year in high school, my school was classified as an "A" school.  You can't improve beyond an "A."  We were punished and lost funding because we did not "show adequate yearly progress."

number55

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_can-anyone-explain-nclb-to-me?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:ce6ac8aa-69b2-44f0-b8bc-77bc4f3bddb9Post:d7c1cbb0-8f05-4d31-8e40-69e3fdbbb1dc">Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me?</a>:
[QUOTE]Basically, the program is stupid. All I know is MN was given an exemption (along with 9 other states.)  I *think* that was done because MN was able to prove that their school systems are good enough without having to answer to big brother. 
Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]

<div>Ohhh! That makes more sense. I thought the exemption meant they were not meeting expectations but needed more time...</div>

HeatherMKR

NLCB= good intentions, bad implementation. I don't think there was enough thought put into how it was executed by the school districts and the state and US Dept of Education.

Some states were freed from it today though

LP11509

I don't know how true this is, but according to my aunt, special education students can not be held back a grade under NCLB.  One of her kids is received some special education services, but was mainstreamed for most of his classes.  He was failing all his classes, but still was forced to be "promoted" to the next grade each year anyway.  So he was getting further and further behind his peers.  She finally decided to start home schooling him (and her other 2 school-aged children) instead.

This is in IL, and again I have no idea if my aunt actually understood correctly - I wonder if it was just that specific school doing it and not a result of NCLB?  I'm not sure, but she said it was a direct result of NCLB anyway. 

cheeseandrice

I agree with Heather. I think it had the right intentions, but it just ended up screwing over those schools that were already performing well as well as those schools that legitimately needed help (not punishment.)

Numbers- yeah. Exemption in this case is a good thing.  I know it's been in the news here for awhile that MN was fighting to be released from the NCLB standards.  MN typically is pretty well-known for having good schools, though. But i know it was a huge process to prove it. 

I think one of the big issues is assuming that students across the country should be held to the same standards.  Sure, we should fight to make sure all children in the US receive an outstanding education, but there still needs to be leway.  MN has a huge issue making sure we have enough ESL teachers (for both the Somali and Hispanic communities).  Other states might not need to worry about this, or may have other language needs.  The history lessons taught in MN are obviously going to be different than those taught in, say, California, or the East Coast. 

SarahPLiz

Basically, it makes it in the best interest of school districts to pass weird policies like the one that they have here that you can't give a student an F. They can't fail.You can't give them 0s on assignments or tests, you ahve to give them the lowest D grade possible. This is true, as I have friends who teach under nonsense like this. 

They do this not because its in the best interest of the student, but because of how it ties into their federal score, which = money. Ludacris!

DNAtime

Sarah, my principal suggest this, and it went over like a lead balloon.  One thing we did discuss was allowing students to make up work so they weren't stuck with an F and the student would quit trying because there was no way they could pass.

Numbers- you are understanding it correctly. NCLB was well intentioned. However proficient is really hard to get, there is no way we will get 95% of kid proficient. We didn't make AYP (adequate yearly progress) for two years now, However AYP is based on a set of standardized tests put out by the state that are generated and scored by Houghton Mifflin and IMO aren't adequate measures of student learning. They are given in March (really?) and we stop teaching for two weeks to stick all the kids in a room to take very confusing standardized tests.
If any one group (sped, ESL/ELA, math or reading or writing) doesnt show MORE than one year's worth of growth from March to March you don't make AYP.

I am very grateful CO also get exempted.

pirategal03

I like to call it "no kid gets ahead" instead of NCLB.  Same rules, different name.

DNAtime

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[QUOTE]I like to call it "no kid gets ahead" instead of NCLB.  Same rules, different name.
Posted by pirategal03[/QUOTE]

I can agree with that, it tries to equalize all the kids to middle for sure.

pirategal03

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_can-anyone-explain-nclb-to-me?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:ce6ac8aa-69b2-44f0-b8bc-77bc4f3bddb9Post:6fc1be75-782a-42a5-a2d1-541b0809f37b">Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me? : I can agree with that, it tries to equalize all the kids to middle for sure.
Posted by DNAtime[/QUOTE]

Exactly. 

Oh, your AP Calc class got pulled so the teacher has time for ANOTHER remedial algebra class?  No problem, just take teen parenting instead. 

Can you tell this hits a nerve for me?

DNAtime

JCB. I totally feel that way all the time. When a parent tells me to not bother them with their childs problems and behaviors, how is it my fault that that student is out of control?

I think somethings that NCLB did that were positive was force teachers to by highly qualified in the subjects and grades that you teach.   Which I think is a benefit to students.

Also, it forced states and districts to formalize content standards so all students are learning the same thing at the same time.
Frankly I think we should take formalized standards and curriculum to the national level.

DNAtime

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me? : Exactly.  Oh, your AP Calc class got pulled so the teacher has time for ANOTHER remedial algebra class?  No problem, just take teen parenting instead.  Can you tell this hits a nerve for me?
Posted by pirategal03[/QUOTE]

I can tell. But thats okay. I think NCLB failed to notice that successful education isn't giving every child the same thing,  but giving every child what they need.

pirategal03

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_can-anyone-explain-nclb-to-me?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:ce6ac8aa-69b2-44f0-b8bc-77bc4f3bddb9Post:e3bac4ba-9b6d-459b-b581-623f41bec0c2">Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me? : When I was in college (years ago), they would refer to that as 'tracking' and unfair.  Their theory was that kids in the lower level classes wouldn't perform as well b/c they weren't being held to the same standards.  <strong>And that higher level kids were being given preferential treatment.</strong>  Thus we had schools like the one where I taught - I had kids that were SO smart in the same classroom as the kids that had failed sophomore english twice.  As a teacher, it was a HUGE challenge to try to teach to such varying degrees of skill levels.
Posted by jcbsjr[/QUOTE]

But so are the lower level kids.  I don't get this argument.  Everyone is receiving preferential treatment if you're holding each kid to individual standards.

chelseamb11

I hate NCLB.  A national level standard will NEVER work for this country.  Each state should be able to make it's own set of "standards".  I put them in air quotes because I don't mean that each school needs to do the same things to reach those standards.  I hink thte standards should be widespread and should reflect each district setting it's own (approved) goals/standards and then evaluated on how well they hit those standards

cheeseandrice

I'm biting my tongue on drawing a socialism/union comparison here, fyi. 

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_can-anyone-explain-nclb-to-me?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:ce6ac8aa-69b2-44f0-b8bc-77bc4f3bddb9Post:7309927d-1cbf-41ff-a82c-64c71eb69eec">Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me?</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm biting my tongue on drawing a socialism/union comparison here, fyi. 
Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]

Do it ;) You know you want to

cheeseandrice

It's just very similar to me.  The idea that bringing everyone to the mean is what's 'fair', when really that can not only place unfair pressure on those who might not be able to perform to that level (or want to).  Meanwhile, prohibiting those who want to exceed past 'normal' or 'average.'

I was very lucky that I had a fantastic HS that had not only supreme AP offerings (all except two tests) but also had a great track record of helping those with learning disabilities and a whole bunch of 'basic' level classes. You could take a basic level math class, but an AP English class if that's where your talents rested. It really bothers me to know that the trend now is to just shove everyone in the same classes because it's only fair if everyone is treated the same. NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, and they shouldn't be taught like they are.

That being said, I need to throw out a necessary disclaimer too, I have a feeling.  In no way do I think this is only the fault of teachers. I realize it's a huge undertaking to be able to accommodate all different levels of learning.  I think it's a district-wide issue (and beyond), that unfortunately exists because tax-payers refuse to recognize the importance of educating the next generation(s). 

DNAtime

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[QUOTE]I hate NCLB.  A national level standard will NEVER work for this country.  Each state should be able to make it's own set of "standards".  I put them in air quotes because I don't mean that each school needs to do the same things to reach those standards.  I hink thte standards should be widespread and should reflect each district setting it's own (approved) goals/standards and then evaluated on how well they hit those standards
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

I absolutely disagree with this. IMO I don't see why we can't have national standards and curriculum. If we want to compete internationally (which I feel is brought up whenever this issue comes up at the national level) nationalizing standard and curriulum is exactly what we need to do.
Why can't evey 6th grader in America be taught adding and subracting fractions? (for example) 

JCB, this is the age old debate, you watch movies like Waiting for Superman and they go on and on about the injustices of tracking. Blah.  I am not a fan. There is also a concept of regressing to the mean. We are moving to a total inclusion modetl with our sped kids next year. I am not sure this will really benefit them. I think that most of the complaints of low standards in low classes is based on the teaching philosophy of the "low" classes not the existance of low classes themselves.

DNAtime

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[QUOTE]I It really bothers me to know that the trend now is to just shove everyone in the same classes because it's only fair if everyone is treated the same. NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, and they shouldn't be taught like they are. .  Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with this statement.

ConKFA319

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[QUOTE]It's just very similar to me.  The idea that bringing everyone to the mean is what's 'fair', when really that can not only place unfair pressure on those who might not be able to perform to that level (or want to).  Meanwhile, prohibiting those who want to exceed past 'normal' or 'average.' . 
Posted by Steph+J[/QUOTE]

<div>It's asinine.

Steph, I think my HS was very much like yours. A student could be in remedial math, but be taking AP English or AP Spanish at the same time, for instance. The tracking system, if implemented the correct way, is much more effective than NCLB (in my opinion, anyway). I always had trouble with math, so I was tracked lower in math classes. At the same time, though, I was taking Honors Spanish 3 and AP Art History. If I had been forced to struggle through "standard" track math and put into "standard" Spanish, I would have been frustrated out of my mind in math and bored out of my mind in Spanish (and my grades would have undoubtedly suffered in both).</div>

cheeseandrice

Exactly confka.  I suck at history, so I was in the 'regular' history the first two years of HS.  But, I was in 11th grade math (AP Calc BC- level 2) my sophomore year.  If I had been forced to either take all higher level classes because of my math, I would've failed history.  If I had been forced to take only regular classes, I would've been bored out of my mind in math and English (and probably pissed off the teacher and disrupted the class for everyone else, tbh.)

number55

Yeah, so you all have too many different systems for me to keep track but of ours has both good aspects to it and others that I could do without.

We don't fail kids at elementary, but we do at secondary. But if a kid fails a class at secondary we have a ton of intervention that goes into helping them get back on track. Here you can take whatever levels of whatever classes you want. We technically have four levels of grade 11 and 12 classes:  university, college, workplace and open (which would be a mix of any level of kid)...You can't apply to university if you don't have the requisite level university classses for whichever program you want to apply to. We have stadardized testing in language and math three times in a student's career: grade 3, 6 and then 9 (math) and 10 (literacy).  If you don't pass the grade 10 lit test you don't get a high school 'diploma' but you can still get a high school 'certificate'. 

I don't know if a perfect system exists. I have a lot of thoughts about what works vs. what doesn't but that would be a really long post. 

chelseamb11

DNA I feel like you're contradicting yourself.  First you ask "Why can't evey 6th grader in America be taught adding and subracting fractions? (for example) " but then you go to agree with Steph who says "I It really bothers me to know that the trend now is to just shove everyone in the same classes because it's only fair if everyone is treated the same. NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, and they shouldn't be taught like they are. . "

To me, teaching every 6th grader in america adding and subtracting fractions (just going off your example) IS putting every student in the same classroom more or less.  What NCLB pretends to do is set a high standard for everyone.  What it actually does is set a standard that failure isn't possible (even if they did fail), so anything that doesn't work cannot be addressed because heaven forbid we hold a student behind or give him/her special attention/classes that fit his/her best learning abilities.  When you force a student into the next level of a class when he/she hasn't succeeded in the previous one, all you do is push him/her even farther back.  It's like if I were to take my students who were struggling with addition and saying "oh, too bad, can't leave them behind, gotta send them to algebra next year anyway"  and then they'd be even MORE lost.

ConKFA319

I'm also going to add in another issue with NCLB. I have no idea if this is a regional thing or not.

My dad is a teacher. He teaches Drafting and Architecture at a HS level, and has for about 15 years. Since NCLB was passed, he's been dealing with IEPs (Individualized Educational Plans) in all of his classes. Basically, these are the sped kids that would have normally been in a lower-track class, who are now in his class with everyone else. While I get that the IEPs are meant to help those kids succeed in the class, they require such personalized attention that at times it can take away from the time he can spend with the other kids. If all of the IEP students had just been placed in a single "lower-track" class, he might have been able to devote adequate time to everyone, or run the class at a slower pace to make sure that everyone was following. Instead, he's trying to accomodate everyone in the same class, which just ends up being detrimental to everyone.

Also? Haif the kids can't even read a ruler, because they've just been pushed along from grade to grade before they were ready.

And this is a P&R, because I have to get ready for work.

DNAtime

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_can-anyone-explain-nclb-to-me?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:ce6ac8aa-69b2-44f0-b8bc-77bc4f3bddb9Post:a66946ab-5feb-4f8c-9439-de48debb465a">Re: Can anyone explain NCLB to me?</a>:
[QUOTE]DNA I feel like you're contradicting yourself.  First you ask "Why can't evey 6th grader in America be taught adding and subracting fractions? (for example) " but then you go to agree with Steph who says "I It really bothers me to know that the trend now is to just shove everyone in the same classes because it's only fair if everyone is treated the same. NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME, and they shouldn't be taught like they are. . " To me, teaching every 6th grader in america adding and subtracting fractions (just going off your example) IS putting every student in the same classroom more or less.  What NCLB pretends to do is set a high standard for everyone.  What it actually does is set a standard that failure isn't possible (even if they did fail), so anything that doesn't work cannot be addressed because heaven forbid we hold a student behind or give him/her special attention/classes that fit his/her best learning abilities.  When you force a student into the next level of a class when he/she hasn't succeeded in the previous one, all you do is push him/her even farther back.  It's like if I were to take my students who were struggling with addition and saying "oh, too bad, can't leave them behind, gotta send them to algebra next year anyway"  and then they'd be even MORE lost.
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

I dont think that having a national standard/benchmark  (i.e. fractions in 6th grade) is anything close to treating kids the same. The expectation is set that kids know fractions, what kid of intervention/ resources they need or recieve to get there or advancement they get beyond there isn't defined. 

A national standard dictates what kids need to know and be able to do, and isn't necessarily reflective of every single classroom in America. Schools can work to meet those standards in manner that is best for them. 
It doesn't mean that every kid must be in 6th grade math with all levels of kids, in every school learning the same lesson on the same day, just that all 6th graders are taught fractions, and  to be proficient (for lack of a better term) in 6th grade they need to know that.  Not all kids will be proficient (This is a fatal flaw of NCLB.)

I hope that was clearer.

Blueyed228

Our state just got a waiver so it wont apply to us anymore.  It will be interesting to see how it goes.

whitsy

Interesting timing, because our state just got its notice about receiving the waiver, and we had a little meeting after school about what this means for us.

Anyway, NCLB has these lovely new sets of AYP, kicking in this year. There are new percentages each year for AYP (that I can't seem to put my hands on at the moment) that by 2013-2014, 100% of students are in the proficient-advanced range, with none in the basic-below basic range. The rules are a little more lax with students in certain subgroups (economically disadvanted, for example), because they can still meet AYP if the percentage of students in the non-proficient status at least goes down.

I'm not sure if that helps. As others have said, it has such good intentions that have not worked out probably as planned. I have 15 students with IEPs spread out over 2 classes, when that is something I never realized I would have to deal with, considering I'm not highly qualified in special education. I'm had several classes, but I still wasn't prepared for that.

I also work in a district where "Zeroes aren't permitted", and grades below a 70 aren't given. Even to students who don't turn in work. I can pull them in to complete it during free time or set them at a desk with their lunch in the cafeteria during lunch to try to get them to complete it, but that doesn't always work. But if kids fail, funding gets pulled because the percentages change, blah blah.

And now there's Race to the Top, which is a whole 'nother soapbox