Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer

Manwaithiel

Lol, NatesGirl. I swear I didn't mean to copy your post

ohwhynot

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:8e527889-4107-4a97-963c-82f674e0d636">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]OWN, every person makes their own choices in life, especially whether to follow the teachings of God/Jesus or not. There's a difference between predetermination and God having a plan but giving us free will. Predetermination is that no matter what, (for example), no matter how many prayers you send up, you're going to turn left and get hit by a dump truck on November 21st 2011. There is nothing you can do to stop it (think Final Destination movies). God having a plan with us having free will is more that ideally, God would have all of His children end up with Him, in their own time, and their own actions lead to that. That's where forgiveness comes in. A person can pray for forgiveness and mercy and it be granted by God. That's where prayer comes in. But, if you're praying for things like "I want this new car", that isn't the way you pray. You ask for help in making it happen if it's God's will. It sounds odd, and I'm not explaining it the best, but its sort of the difference between a kid saying gimme that candy and an adult saying please pass the mashed potatoes when you get a moment.
Posted by missy68[/QUOTE]

I like the way you put that, Missy.  I still have some questions about predetermination and God's will, though.   Are you saying that humans can cause things to happen that are NOT in God's plan for us?  How does that fit in with God as an omniscient and omnipotent being? 

A related question is whether we can influence God to change his mind about something - i.e., cause an event to happen that would not have happened if it weren't for prayer. 

Starmusica

this MAY be a post and run..... however

OWN- I was raised in a religious home and was very religious until around 18. I wish I still was usually.

The thing is- yes if God has a plan than prayers don't change anything but I cannot explain to you how fulfilling it was to have true and honest hope and faith. It was like having a light inside you that stayed on even in the darkest of times. When that light finally went out for me it left something empty behind that has never quite filled.

So I think if prayer is a vehicle of faith and faith does this.. its all worth it.

edit: so right now.. I am doing just what you asked about- praying my heart out for someone I love. I know my prayers wont change God's plan for him but I am using prayer to beg, plead and bargain and for some reason it helps.

arv266

I was raised in a Roman Catholic household, and my mother was big into prayer.  She'd pray the rosary most every night, and as a kid I never understood why she did it.  When I was older and going through religious intruction, I was taught that prayer is how we communicate with God.  Every good relationship has communication, so its not so much that we're asking for things, as much as having a conversation and letting God know what is going on in our lives.

Like the OP, I always questioned why it needed to be done.  My mom's answer was - you pray to be polite.  Don't ignore God.  

I see prayer as a means of comfort.  In the situations where someone is dying and there is nothing that you CAN do, praying can be comforting as it allows you to DO something. 

jasmineh7777

Free will versus omniscience is one of those slipper slopes that haven't really been resolved or well answered, imho.
 If you're interested, Saint Augustine addresses this issue in the final few chapters of Confessions. Thomas Aquinas also wrote about it.
 Calvin was the biggest proponent of the predestination idea that I can think of right now.

 The biggest problem with predestination is that is leaves pretty much no room for personal accountability. (I think this is why we downplay it in Western culture).

SarahPLiz

I find predestination, in its strictest form, very depressing. 

missy68

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:f3cd32b4-b57c-46ff-927c-ac2383197100">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer : I like the way you put that, Missy.  I still have some questions about predetermination and God's will, though.   Are you saying that humans can cause things to happen that are NOT in God's plan for us?  How does that fit in with God as an omniscient and omnipotent being?  A related question is whether we can influence God to change his mind about something - i.e., cause an event to happen that would not have happened if it weren't for prayer. 
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]

Predestination/predetermination is NOT a belief shared by all Protestant faiths - the United Methodist faith does not believe in it. They believe anyone is able to be saved (which I realize is more than prayer, but is also part of having a relationship with God). I just grabbed this off the internet on yahoo answers, but it cites a UM source:

I hope the following helps. From "Major United Methodist Beliefs" by Bishop Mack Stokes:

<strong>"What is predestination? It is the doctrine that God alone decides who will be saved and who will be lost. It means that some people are picked out by God for salvation.
</strong>
We United Methodists repudiate this doctrine. <strong>We affirm the sovereignty of God. We hold that only God can save us. We believe, however, that people may or may not put themselves in a position where God will do that saving work. God freely gives, <em>but we must receive</em>.</strong> We are saved by the grace of God only. To receive that grace we must confess our sins and<em><strong> trust in God's pardoning grace</strong></em> in Jesus Christ.

More than this, we United Methodists regard it as both contrary to the total insight of the Bible and to common sense to suppose that God would fore-ordain that anyone go to hell. Taken in its literal form, this is a pernicious doctrine.

We believe in a Christianity that is open to everyone. We call everyone to choose God and live"

______________________________________…

John Wesley said that the predestination language in the Bible reflects God's existence in a "now" which is outside of time and space. God knows the free choices of His followers. "With him nothing is either past or future, but all things equally present."

God chooses all of his creation and he chooses all humans to receive His free gift of grace. We are also given the choice to reject this gift.

But in your conversations, also remember Wesley's advice to preachers:

<strong>"My dear brother, in public preaching, speak not one word against opinions of any kind. We are not fighting against notions, but sins. Least of all should I advise you once to open your lips against predestination. It would do more mischief than you are aware of. Keep to our one point, present inward salvation by faith, by the divine evidence of sins forgiven." - John Wesley, November 1747.

And his advice to all Christians:

"In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity."</strong> <h3 class="reference">Source(s):</h3><div class="reference"><font color="#006699"><a href="http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/58/" rel="nofollow">http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/58/</a></font></div>

jasmineh7777

Or very uplifitng Sarahplz. If you're good, it's because you were born to be good!
  If you suck, it's also not your fault because it was predecided. I don't think it was sad for it's followers, because they all genuinely believed they were saved.

SarahPLiz

But If i suck, and don't want to suck, I can't do anything about it. None of my efforts not to suck will be rewarded in the afterlife. that is the depressing part for me. Maybe that's why I'm not Presbyterian anymore. I remember learning about all this in my confirmation class. 

NatesGirl16

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:325bcf11-4b49-4e68-bc38-a0e7c65dc2db">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE] I see prayer as a means of comfort.  In the situations where someone is dying and there is nothing that you CAN do, praying can be comforting as it allows you to DO something. 
Posted by arv266[/QUOTE]
I so agree with this.  I think prayer serves a psychological need to feel like we are doing something to help a situation.  It's very hard to sit back, watch something terrible happen (i.e. a terrible sickness, etc), and not do anything. Prayer affords us a certain comfort that we are taking action.

In regards to predestination/predetermined plans and free will, this is one of the mysteries of my faith.  Yes, I believe that God has a plan for me.  The beauty of it is that I have the free will to follow that plan or choose my own.  As others have said, God wants me to follow his plan because he knows me better than I  know myself and he has my best interests at heart (can you say that about an entity :) ).  At the same time, he isn't going to force me to follow him or to love him.  That's what sets us apart from animals--we have free choice, rather than being enslaved.

Starmusica

I think the idea of predestination, fate, etc is interesting. I dont think it changes my sense of free will. I can MAKE whatever decision I want but the result.. theres a reason for it. 

I dont know where I am god-wise lately but I have faith in fate. I believe there is a reason for everything and a plan for everything. I think things ARE predetermined but not in this will-less way... in a beautiful plan sort of way.

Manwaithiel

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:dded5137-d8d8-4c83-b7f0-bf26f90e7756">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer : I so agree with this.  I think prayer serves a psychological need to feel like we are doing something to help a situation.  It's very hard to sit back, watch something terrible happen (i.e. a terrible sickness, etc), and not do anything. Prayer affords us a certain comfort that we are taking action. In regards to predestination/predetermined plans and free will, this is one of the mysteries of my faith.  Yes, I believe that God has a plan for me.  The beauty of it is that I have the free will to follow that plan or choose my own.  As others have said, God wants me to follow his plan because he knows me better than I  know myself and he has my best interests at heart (can you say that about an entity :) ).  At the same time, he isn't going to force me to follow him or to love him.  That's what sets us apart from animals--we have free choice, rather than being enslaved.
Posted by NatesGirl16[/QUOTE]

Eye to eye, NatesGirl.

jasmineh7777

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:5d9b082a-d5aa-4283-8a27-2348b387f4c7">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]But If i suck, and don't want to suck, I can't do anything about it. None of my efforts not to suck will be rewarded in the afterlife. that is the depressing part for me. Maybe that's why I'm not Presbyterian anymore. I remember learning about all this in my confirmation class. 
Posted by SarahPLiz[/QUOTE]

If you don't want to suck, then you're meant to be good! See how that works? ;)
Those that are all bad will have no urge to be good. If you have the urge, you must be good, right?
   Anyway, this is why I'm Catholic. I can just confess. :P

ohwhynot

Thank you, everyone, for the discussion.  I found it very enlightening.  Thanks!

Wrkn925

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:5797fa43-0b00-4372-b469-6a62a886768a">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]Thank you, everyone, for the discussion.  I found it very enlightening.  Thanks!
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]

You took the words out of my keyboard, I was about to say the same thing.

I haven't posted a lot in this, but I have read most of it.
It's really nice to be able to "talk" to people that can share their opinions and views without casting judgement. 

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_potentially-touchy-subject-discussion-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e48c9626-e1e7-42ca-8331-47caca60e5cdPost:f4fabf14-a7fb-4e87-b8a7-f731d6a8fcd6">Re: Potentially touchy subject discussion: prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]OWN, when you say God's plan, I am thinking Predestination. Maybe that's not what you mean, but that's how I'm interpretting it.  So,    <strong>Predestination is a Protestant belief.</strong> Basically, those that are saved by God are already "elected."  So, if you believe in Predestination, then prayer actually does not change the outcome of anything.   Catholics and Greek Orthodox do not believe in predestination, and believe that by prayer we can ask for God's intervention or help. If I don't ask God, then why would He/She/It give me help? That's just my perspective. As a rule, I rarely pray for myself, and I was always taught that prayer shouldn't be for personal gain.
Posted by jasmineh7777[/QUOTE]

In the Calvinist faiths. Not Lutheranism, or Anabaptist faiths. Or a few others.

redheadtmk

Prayer gives people hope. it also gives them something to do rather than just sit and wait. most christians i know are not prayin for change they are praying for strength,comfort, understanding. Using the example of someone dying, they would not pray for God to make her live but for her to die peacefully and with out pain if she is going to die. they also pray for wisdom and discernment of the doctors treating the patient. they will also ask for comfort for all the family/friends/loved ones.and depending on the particular religion they will pray for the patients soul or for the patient to accept christ before they die etc.  its not about prayer changing what is going to happen, its about makiing what is going to happen easier to deal with.

emersic9

I pray a lot for thanks, for God to help and guide the people that need it most, and for guidance myself.

For example, I pray a lot for thanks to God for giving me an amazing person to spend my life with. I also pray for the guidance in our relationship and our future together, such as guiding us when things might get tough and to give us the strength we need together.

sister2groom

Prayer for me as a Christian is first and foremost about my relationship with God, it's pretty obvious relationships don't make sense without communication, in which prayer plays a huge role.

One of the main things I believe about God is that as a flawed human I will never be able to completely understand God and His workings. I know that are certain things that are determined and set by God, but we have free-will as well. Also, God encourages prayer and appears to change his mind in some instances after receiving prayer, but I know God doesn't make mistakes. Thus my belief that there is some sort of balance between concepts that I think logically are contradictory.

In Exodus 32, God had just brought His people out of slavery in Egypt and then they turn around and start worshipping some random statue they made. God sees this, and thinks of them as sort of lost causes and tells Moses he will destroy them and start over. Moses intercedes on their behald and God "relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people," which implies he changed his mind because of what Moses prayed, again, I don't quite get it.