Being sensitive to the views of others

right1thistime

Today on MSN, there's a featured story about a South Carolina woman who lives in a predominantly African-American community.  She treasures her "heritage" and proudly flies the Confederate flag.  Her neighbors have protested, and built 8 foot fences that border her property, and she has responded by buying a taller flagpole. 

She (tearfully) declares that she is not racist, but that since her ancestors fought for the confederacy, she wants to celebrate that heritage. 

As a yankee (small y) I truly don't get this.  As someone who is interested in geneology, I truly treasure my family's heritage, but I would be proud of achievements and accomplishments, and abhore acts of hate or behavior that today would not be acceptable.  As an example, my dad was pretty prejudiced.  He was a wonderful man, and I celebrate much about him, but not that.  I can even embrace that your ancestors fought for what they believed in, and being proud of that-- but not being proud of those beliefs. 

And finally, if I wasn't trying to harass my neighbors, when they blocked their view of my personal symbol of whatever I felt so strongly about, I wouldn't feel the need to shove it in their faces by force.  ~Donna

Avion22

I red the same story.   

I don't know what to think about it.   On one hand, I agree with you that once it was clear that her neighbors were offended, she should have backed off a little bit.   On the other hand, it's her right to display her flag (freedom of expression), and she should be able to do so.   

Why can't we all just get along?

Yellow+Belle

You can abhore acts of hate or behavior that today would not be acceptable and still cherish this flag. I don't have a strong affection for it, personally, but I grew up in the south and know many people who view the battle flag as an expression of southern pride &/or a symbol of states' rights & freedoms. Yes, some people do choose to associate this flag with racism. That's unfortunate, but that's doesn't represent everyone who displays this flag.

The best analogy I can come up with is this: some people choose to associate a pentagram with Satanists. The truth is that most people wearing pentagrams are wiccans or other peace-loving pagans. It's a lack of understanding that propagates this belief, but that really doesn't matter to the ones wearing it.

Symbolism aside, I do agree that she's just purposefully provoking her neighbors at this point, & that's just idiotic.

2dBride

I agree it's her legal right to display such a flag.  However, something can be legally right and morally wrong.  Just because someone has a legal right to display a swastika, for example, does not mean that it is morally right to do so.  If your ancestors were Nazis, would you display a swastika on your house?

And in this case, if the Confederate flag is of emotional significance to her, she could display it indoors.  Making sure to put it where all her neighbors can see it--after they have done everything they can to avoid seeing it--is just plain obnoxious.

ichellemay1

I think it's ok for her to display - free speech and all.  However, raising the flagpole when the neighbors built fences was just tacky.  I agree - why can't we all just get along???

right1thistime

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_being-sensitive-views-of-others?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:020bbf68-0c38-404f-ab73-bc98f5fcf713Post:f44eb18b-1c17-41da-8086-8e1b9db9f7f7">Re: Being sensitive to the views of others</a>:
[QUOTE]You can abhore acts of hate or behavior that today would not be acceptable and still cherish this flag. I don't have a strong affection for it, personally, but <strong>I grew up in the south and know many people who view the battle flag as an expression of southern pride &/or a symbol of states' rights & freedoms.</strong> Posted by Yellow+Belle[/QUOTE]
Yellow Belle -  I need you to educate me on this.  Because the battle you refer to was a secession from the United States of America over the singular issue of abolishion of slavery.  Again, I am northern born and raised, and have had limited (to none) exposure to southern culture and thinking.  But to me, it looks like a symbol of anti-patriotism (not a real word), and putting commerce ahead of human rights.  What exactly is there to be proud of?  In my opinion, the confederate flag has been used to symbolize the romanticized version of the Civil War. And I am hard pressed to read freedom anywhere in the symbolism of that banner.  ~Donna 

Lisa50

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_being-sensitive-views-of-others?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:020bbf68-0c38-404f-ab73-bc98f5fcf713Post:028d3c29-7821-4f34-8a98-d884fff391ef">Re: Being sensitive to the views of others</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree it's her legal right to display such a flag.  However, something can be legally right and morally wrong.  Just because someone has a legal right to display a swastika, for example, does not mean that it is morally right to do so.  If your ancestors were Nazis, would you display a swastika on your house? And in this case, if the Confederate flag is of emotional significance to her, she could display it indoors. <strong> Making sure to put it where all her neighbors can see it--after they have done everything they can to avoid seeing it--is just plain obnoxious.
</strong>Posted by 2dBride[/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it better.  If this were an issue of pride only, she would be happy flying the flag at the same height it was flown prior to the neighbors' attempts to block <u>their</u> view.  She's clearly trying to rub it in someone's face (no pun intended), or she wouldn't have increased the height.  Ugh!

handfast4me

Living in the South, I know that many of my African-American friends view that flag as similar to the Swastika. It represents lynching and lack of rights and freedoms to them. On the other side, those with Southern roots, feel the flag symbolizes states rights.  Many here in the South view the "war of Northern agression" was about states' rights and representation, not necessarily about the singular issue of slavery. 

I live on the land that was once the Old Confederate Soldier's Home, and I was reared in the Boston area, so there you have it. 

And, yes, there is a misconception regarding Paganism (Wicca is a form of Paganism, as Baptists are Christians.) about the PENTACLE (not pentagram).  This was a calculated disinformation campaign from the Christian relgion, and largely from the Catholics.   Just had to throw that in there since I'm the resident witch.  :-) 

ETA to correct misspelling. 

oneday12

For those of us who have the heritage of the Confederacy we should be more upset that the battle flag was hi-jacked by causes of hate and bigotry!  Unfortunately racist groups took the symbol and used it to spread their disgusting views. As a result most of the main stream public see the flag as a symbol of hate and find it offensive. What is also sad is that no one ever spoke up when the hi-jacking was happening, turned a blind eye etc.....but now people want to get upset when the tables have turned? 

Yellow+Belle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_being-sensitive-views-of-others?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:020bbf68-0c38-404f-ab73-bc98f5fcf713Post:ff950bde-7fa0-4332-a4ec-6a373435d7df">Re: Being sensitive to the views of others</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Being sensitive to the views of others : Yellow Belle -  I need you to educate me on this....  [/QUOTE]

I couldn't have said it any better than handfast4me and oneday12's responses.

btw, handfast4me, nice to see another pagan on the boards :) I'm formerly Wiccan, now just non-denom solitary. I've differentiated between pentacle and pentagram (though I'll acknowledge pentacle always equals point-side up and pentagram can mean either), but I know others have their own preferences :)

handfast4me

Thanks Yell!  At least no one has called it a pentgon.  Blah!  :-)  DH and I are solitary practitioners, too, although my distant cousin and his wife are HP and HPS in Welsh Trad, and they performed our handfasting. 

Blessed Be!

squarepeg72

Most "battle flags" for the Confederate Army were sewn by the wives and families of the soilders who carried them ... Most men who fought, did not fight for the "Confederacy" they fought for thier home state ... History is told by the victors and what a state had to go through to be readmitted to the Union after the war was BLACKMAIL.One of the reasons AMdrew Johnson was impeached is because he protested the sever punishment and restrictions that were being put on states that were devistated by the wat just to even think about trying to get back into the "United States". Men left their families to uncertain futures and many soilders on both sides lost more than just a year or two at home.  My family were simple farmers of Scotch, Irish and Welsh decent who owned NO slaves and fought for thier state and community.The community I grew up in has houses from that time that still have bullet holes in the walls and people have found cannon balls in their walls and basmentsduring renovations because there community was a battleground or area of a skirmish. Area's of my Grandfather's farm were included in the battlefield for the Battle of Mossy Creek and the basement of the church I grew up in was comendered by Union soilders to be used as a horse stable during the war. When Southern's speak of the "War of Northern agression", that is the way it felt to their ancestors. The "Civil War" was fought in the South with the exception of Lee's push into Pennsylvania.  My children's ancestor was in a Union POW camp and had to swear allegiance to the Union before he was released. He had to walk from Ohio to Virginia just to get back to a family he was not guarenteed would be there... I know there are people who use the flags of the Confederacy as symbols of hate and controversy and use them as such. I also know there are people who see them as a symbol of perserverance and honor. Do you know the origins of Arlington Nation Cemetary? It was the family plantation of Mary Custis Lee, Robert E Lee's wife. It was taken over by the Union during the war and The "Union" decided to start using the property as a cemetary for Union soilders while the family was basically under house arrest in the main house. I can only imagine the horror of the family as they were forced to watch their home be turned into a burial ground and could do nothing to stop it. ... I do not agree with pushing your heritage on others and this lady may be pushing it a little to far ... We Southerners can be a wee bit stubborn ... I try to tell my students - before you make a blanket decision about anything, do your research ... my battle flag and your may be two different things ... and remember - My freedom of speech and expression end where yours begin ...

fireytiger

I personally think that regardless of whether some see that flag as a symbol of honour and others see it as racist, the woman was wrong to get a taller flagpost. I don't necessarily care if people want to fly the confederate flag, even if others find it offensive. If she wants to fly her flag on her property, go right ahead. But her neighbors see negative connotations in that flag, and they don't want to have to see it while they're on THEIR property, which is also their right. It sounds like they took steps on their end to prevent seeing it, while allowing her the right to have the flag displayed on her property. It's not like they went over to her house and tore the flag down. They built a taller fence on their property. If it had ended right there, then nobody would have been in the wrong.

Instead of just dropping it there however, she decided to be disrespectful of her neighbors' feelings, and get a taller flagpole for her flag, hence forcing them to have to see something they find offensive. I gotta agree with right1 on this, she can't claim she's not purposely trying to harass her neighbors, when her neighbors made it clear they didn't want to see her flag, have taken steps within reason to prevent seeing it, and she forces them to anyway.

right1thistime

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_being-sensitive-views-of-others?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:020bbf68-0c38-404f-ab73-bc98f5fcf713Post:86bbe7d0-3611-4afa-8913-1a0aed3034cd">Re: Being sensitive to the views of others</a>:
[QUOTE]. This woman is being unjustly punished, and her neighbors shouldn't just assume she's racist.
Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

Please explain to me who is punishing this woman unjustly?? The courts have ruled that she can fly the flag.  They have also ruled that her neighbors can build high fences.  SHE retaliated by buying a higher flagpole so that the flag would fly in the face of her neighbors' line of sight, OVER the fence they had built specifically for the purpose of NOT having to view an object they view as offensive.  What patriotic purpose does it serve to insist that the flag be visible laterally to people who don't want to see it?  ?

If I were to assume that every poster on this board who supports the confederate flag were racist, how would it change my mind, or expand my understanding if you were to change your siggy to the confederate flag and seek me out to post in every post I write? Or to send me PMs with photos of the flag? I doubt that you would enlighten me about your viewpoint by doing that, and in fact, harassing behavior like that would likely reinforce  my beliefs.  

As far as state's rights are concerned, then and now, I strongly believe that the federal government can and should enforce overreaching laws that protect  human rights. Those rights evolve over time, and we learn and grow as people.  ~Donna

lindaloulubbock

Regarless of the flag she's flying, raising her flag pole was obnoxious and spiteful.

right1thistime

So if my neighbor has an unsightly house and I build a fence so that I don't have to see the offending vision, I am punishing or  harassing them?  That is absolutely ridiculous.

Does she have the right to raise her flagpole higher?  Yes, she does.  Is it going to de-escalate the situation, absolutely not. 

right1thistime

I think Halloween, which is pretty darn mainstream today,  is far different than a symbol that, like it or not, is affiliated today (whether correctly or not) with hate are two very very different things. 
Protesting a hate symbol =/= protesting a mainstream holiday display.

Sue-n-Kevin

I'm late to this thread because I just got back Wednesday from my HM.

In January of this year, Kevin and I went to Charleston SC because I had a business trip there. It was our first joint foray into a "southern state". We are both history buffs, but not nearly as much as some of you probably are. We quietly wondered how we would feel about seeing all the history in an area that was on the "opposing side" of the Civil War. Funny thing: Charleston has a lot of history, and yes they have a lot about the "Northern War of Aggression". But, there is also a TON of stuff and historical locales about the Revolutionary War, where SC residents and legislators were heavily involved and invested.

Last summer we went to Gettysburg on our way to visit my son in DC. We visited many areas of history from that deadly battle, but the one thing that surprised us was that there was a massive reunion of soldiers from both sides for the 50th anniversary of the battle. At that time, victors and defeated came together, shook hands and reminisced about the battle that was only 50 years earlier.

That might seem like a simplistic way of looking at things, but if history tells us anything it's that we are a country of different people who have come together to make a pretty remarkable patchwork of states with varying opinions and outlooks. I guess my outlook is always that I am "Switzerland" in any discussion, because while I have firmly held political beliefs, I rarely point fingers or get my panties in a wad because someone disagrees with my position or  opinion. I simply vote. Sometimes my candidate wins, sometimes they lose, and sometimes the Supreme Court decides who won or lost, or how long the recount can continue.

I liken the discussion that started this thread to the recent stories about particular church members who picket and carry signs at the funerals for service people who have died in the Middle East. The first amendment gives them the right, even if I don't like what they do.

I'm far from politically apethetic. I take part in elections and have worked at election HQ in the past. My kids are the same way. But I have tried to bring them up to understand our opinion is not the only one, that there's always going to be people that disagree with us, and pointing fingers, yelling rhetoric or making other people feel antagonized is not the way to improve the world we live in. It is THAT behavior that results in the stalemates and 2-3 year election cycles we have now.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

[Deleted User]

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_being-sensitive-views-of-others?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:35Discussion:020bbf68-0c38-404f-ab73-bc98f5fcf713Post:aabf54c4-e8e8-4599-975c-1bb4d6c506af">Re: Being sensitive to the views of others</a>:
[QUOTE]I think Halloween, which is pretty darn mainstream today,  is far different than a symbol that, like it or not, is affiliated today (whether correctly or not) with hate are two very very different things. Don't count on it.  I live in a Southern Baptist hotbed, and schools have had to ban carnivals or rename them "Fall Festivals", employers have banned decorations, etc over it.  It's absurd. Why? "Because it's evil and Satanic." Ask the West Memphis Three. <strong>The swastika was originally an American Indian symbol. </strong> We in the south are determined not to let our flag get entirely hijacked the way that symbol was. People need to judge others by their actions rather than what they wear or what symbols they fly outside their house, or wear on their clothes.
Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

I do believe you mean Indian, not American Indian as it is/was a Hindu symbol.